Reviewing and overturning a penalty

[PatsFaninAZ]

Back to the discussion of the reversed play - if you watch the network replay where they show the lines of the tackle box, you can see clearly that the illegal contact takes place before Brady slides out of the pocket, so, in fact, the penalty should have stood.

Yeah, I thought so too. I've seen that called before like that, though. It's pretty hard for the guy who calls contact to know when the QB left the pocket, and it's usually hard for the official (usually the umpire) who is watching the pocket to know when the contact occurred. So, usually, if the QB left the pocket, unless one official saw both acts, they give the benefit to the defender. (Another call where you see this happen is on a tipped ball. If a ball gets tipped, all illegal contact essentially gets wiped out, even if happened like 2 seconds before the tip.) Maybe the general thinking is that this is a very risky play for a defender, because if he happens to do it after the ball leaves the QB's hands, it's PI.

There was a pretty famous occasion of this call happening last year (or maybe two years ago) when the Lions beat the Packers. A flag for illegal contact got picked up because Rodgers was out of the tackle box, and the result of the play was an interception in a game the Lions went on to win.

 

[Rob0729]

From what I understand, when a play is reviewed, EVERYTHING about it is up for grabs, including things not noticed before. This seems fairly sensible.

Now, if anyone could explain pass interference to me...I listen to all the explanations, I watch the plays over and over and I still can't figure out what the rules are or how they apply.

For instance, does the defender always have to be looking back toward the ball to avoid an interference call? I saw one play yesterday, where the WR wasn't looking back. His back was to the QB and he just looked into the air as the ball passed over his head and somehow, he managed to react and catch it. I saw another where the CB knocked the ball away, with his back to the quarterback.

I know that if the CB impedes the WR's progress before the ball arrives, it's interference...but what if he simply steps in front of him, performing what in basketball would be a pick? That certainly impedes the WR's progress. But that's how Ninkovitch got that pass from Tomlinson in the 4th quarter.

Verrry confusing for the average fan.

Everything that is reviewable is up for grabs in a replay, but not things like illegal contact and pass interference that are non-reviewable calls.

I'd explain PI to you, but I am horrible at explaining these things.

 

[patsfan-1982]

they said Brady steped out of the pocket so there was no penalty

 

[lamafist]

Once they announce the call, it is official. They cannot overturn it other than by replay. Then again, that doesn't mean that it might not have happened before.

I don't think you're right about this. I think the officials can confer and revise decisions up until the next snap. I do not believe there is anything binding or official about what the ref says over the loudspeaker.

So what appears to have happened is that one of the officials -- the umpire, most likely -- saw (in his opinion) Brady leave the pocket, which would have nullified the illegal contact penalty. Since the result of the play was a touchdown, making the penalty irrelevant, he didn't need to raise this to the referee.

When it was announced that the play would be reviewed, he realized that the penalty would become relevant again if the TD were overturned, so he conferred with the referee and back judge, and they decided to pick the flag up before the ref went under the hood. As the flag was officially picked up before the replay review began, is all technically by-the-book.

Where I think the refs got it wrong is in ruling Brady out of the pocket. An NBC replay drew lines from the tackles outside shoulders, and showed that Brady at most stepped outside the tackle box with one foot. So the question is, what are the criteria for a QB being "outside the pocket?" I admit, I'm unsure. If it's like being ruled out of bounds, then, yes, Brady likely was out of the pocket. But it's almost certainly not ruled like out of bounds, because nothing occurring inside the field is -- for example, nothing regarding the line of scrimmage or first down marker is decided that way.

The closest comparable situation I can think of to a QB being outside the pocket is whether a quarterback has passed the line of scrimmage or not. The criterion here is whether the quarterback's entire body has gone beyond the line of scrimmage. As long as any part of the QB remains behind the line of scrimmage, he's still eligible to pass. If whether a QB is outside the pocket is determined the same way, there's no way Brady was outside the pocket.

 

[Koma]

Last night was one of the most poorly officiated games I have ever seen. The calls almost entirely went against the Pats, which I'm inclined to chalk up to incompetent refs being swayed by a home crowd. The helmet to helmet call on Moore was stupid, and should never have been called, but it's a snap decision, so I can at least sort of understand. Overturning the illegal contact penalty on review, though, just isn't in the rulebook. I think they made up a whole new procedure there, and it took four points off the board. They are very lucky that that ended up not mattering.

I think the Burress' decision to re-enact Sgt. Elias' death scene from Platoon contributed to the decision to call a penalty on that play.

Not that there's anything wrong with some embellishing, but the officials heard helmet to helmet and saw the receiver fall that way and it made it easier to go for the flag.

 

[Metaphors]

I think the Burress' decision to re-enact Sgt. Elias' death scene from Platoon contributed to the decision to call a penalty on that play.

Not that there's anything wrong with some embellishing, but the officials heard helmet to helmet and saw the receiver fall that way and it made it easier to go for the flag.

The real key is whether or not Moore gets fined for his hit. This would set the precedent that you don't have to actually hit an opponent to get fined. If so, the Pats OL may want to suspend their pregame ritual of headbutting Brady.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Someone earlier in the thread was complaining that Gronk was pushed OOB by a Jet.

That doesn't matter. Whether you go OOB on your own or are pushed out, it doesn't matter (unless the push was illegal contact, defensive holding, or PI) In fact, DBs (especially when more shoving was allowed) will sometimes push receivers on sideline routes OOB for just this reason -- it makes them ineligible receivers.

And to finish covering the basis, two or three years ago (maybe a few more -- time flies) the force-out was eliminated.

It used to be that if a receiver left his feet for a catch, was contacted by a defender while in the air, and then landed OOB, the official would have to decide whether or not the receiver would have landed in-bounds absent the contact and make the complete/incomplete call accordingly. That was abolished. If you land OOB, it's incomplete, period.

 

[Sfpat]

The only problem was that Brady did not step out of the pocket, the refs only thought he did. NBC showed a replay with lines on the field and Brady only gets one foot outside the lines. No ref on earth could have determined Brady was out of the pocket. The call was dropped because last night, the refs motto was, "when in doubt, favor the Jets"

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Here's what's reviewable, directly from the Official 2011 Rulebook (not the "Digest of Rules"):

Section 9 Instant Replay
(snip)
Reviewable Plays. The Replay System will cover the following play situations only:
(a) Plays governed by Sideline, Goal Line, End Zone, and End Line:

1. Scoring plays, including a runner breaking the plane of the goal line.
2. Pass complete/incomplete/intercepted at sideline, goal line, end zone, and end line.
3. Runner/receiver in or out of bounds.
4. Recovery of loose ball in or out of bounds.​

(b) Passing plays:

1. Pass ruled complete/incomplete/intercepted in the field of play.
2. Touching of a forward pass by an ineligible receiver.
3. Touching of a forward pass by a defensive player.
4. Quarterback (Passer) forward pass or fumble.
5. Illegal forward pass beyond line of scrimmage.
6. Illegal forward pass after change of possession.
7. Forward or backward pass thrown from behind line of scrimmage.​

(c) Other reviewable plays:

1. Runner ruled not down by defensive contact.
2. Runner ruled down by defensive contact when the recovery of a fumble by an opponent or a teammate occurs in the action that happens following the fumble.
3. Ruling of incomplete pass when the recovery of a passer’s fumble by an opponent or a teammate occurs in the action following the fumble.
4. Ruling of a loose ball out of bounds when it is recovered in the field of play by an opponent or a teammate in the action after the ball hits the ground.​

Note 1: If the ruling of down by contact or incomplete pass is changed, the ball belongs to the recovering player at the spot of the recovery of the fumble, and any advance is nullified.
Note 2: If the Referee does not have indisputable visual evidence as to which player recovered the loose ball, the ruling on the field will stand.
Note 3: This does not apply to complete/incomplete passes, or the ruling of forward progress.

5. Forward progress with respect to a first down.
6. Touching of a kick.
7. A field-goal or Try attempt that crosses below or above the crossbar, inside or outside the uprights when it is lower than the top of the uprights, or touches anything.
8. Number of players on the field at the snap.
9. Illegal forward handoff.​

Note: Non-reviewable plays include but are not limited to:

1. Status of the clock
2. Proper down
3. Penalty administration
4. Runner ruled down by defensive contact (not involving fumbles)
5. Forward progress not relating to first down or goal line
6. Recovery of a loose ball that does not involve a boundary line or the end zone.
7. Field-goal or Try attempts that cross above either upright without touching anything.
8. Inadvertent Whistle
​

 

[bresna]

Don't these two:

Reviewable Plays. The Replay System will cover the following play situations only:

(b) Passing plays:
2. Touching of a forward pass by an ineligible receiver.

Note: Non-reviewable plays include but are not limited to:
3. Penalty administration

sort of contradict each other? They reviewed the play and called a penalty on review. I've only seen this for too many men on the field. I can't remember ever seeing it used for this...

 

[ivanvamp]

Someone earlier in the thread was complaining that Gronk was pushed OOB by a Jet.

That doesn't matter. Whether you go OOB on your own or are pushed out, it doesn't matter (unless the push was illegal contact, defensive holding, or PI) In fact, DBs (especially when more shoving was allowed) will sometimes push receivers on sideline routes OOB for just this reason -- it makes them ineligible receivers.

On the play in question, Gronk got forced out of the back of the end zone. I don't remember where the ball was spotted at the snap, but obviously the contact was made further than 10 yards from the LOS. Since illegal contact takes place 5+ yards from the LOS, the was, by definition, illegal contact. I understand the whole "was the QB in the pocket" issue. But if Brady was in the pocket, and if the defender pushed Gronk out of the end zone, then it automatically is illegal contact.

 

[FalconHeavy]

The only problem was that Brady did not step out of the pocket, the refs only thought he did. NBC showed a replay with lines on the field and Brady only gets one foot outside the lines. No ref on earth could have determined Brady was out of the pocket. The call was dropped because last night, the refs motto was, "when in doubt, favor the Jets"

come on now, I thought the crew of decent. They even called a couple of holding penalty against "Lord Revis"

 

[QuantumMechanic]

They reviewed the play and called a penalty on review. I've only seen this for too many men on the field. I can't remember ever seeing it used for this...

I believe "penalty administration" means just that -- the mechanics of administering a penalty. So you can't challenge that the refs marked the ball off wrong, or set the wrong down, etc.

That's not the same as a ref determining that the receiver went OOB and therefore made an illegal touch.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

Someone earlier in the thread was complaining that Gronk was pushed OOB by a Jet.

That doesn't matter. Whether you go OOB on your own or are pushed out, it doesn't matter (unless the push was illegal contact, defensive holding, or PI) In fact, DBs (especially when more shoving was allowed) will sometimes push receivers on sideline routes OOB for just this reason -- it makes them ineligible receivers.

Yup -- absolutely right. I think I had forgotten this. It used to be the rule that if you were forced out of bounds, you could make yourself eligible again by re-establishing yourself in bounds. (The old three step rule.) Now, the only thing, I believe, that can make an ineligible receiver eligible again is if another eligible receiver (or any defender) touches the ball first.

As a practical matter, it's pretty hard to force a player out of bounds and not commit a foul, but the main point is correct -- if it happens that way, the replay review cannot make a judgment about whether a foul was committed only whether the player was eligible.

 

[E Belichick Unum]

The only problem was that Brady did not step out of the pocket, the refs only thought he did. NBC showed a replay with lines on the field and Brady only gets one foot outside the lines. No ref on earth could have determined Brady was out of the pocket. The call was dropped because last night, the refs motto was, "when in doubt, favor the Jets"

If you rewatch the CBS feed where they put the red lines on to show where the poc ket is, Branch gets thrown down before Brady gets to the superimposed lines CBS drew.

It was a bad call, but in the end it didn't come back to bite the Pats. Also, defensive holding is not reviewable and the refs should not have been able to overturn it. What did surprise me was that BB didn't throw a fit on the sidelines.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

It was a bad call, but in the end it didn't come back to bite the Pats. Also, defensive holding is not reviewable and the refs should not have been able to overturn it. What did surprise me was that BB didn't throw a fit on the sidelines.

BB didn't have a fit because it the illegal contact call wasn't "overturned". The flag was picked up before the review even happened.

 

[wpdougie2180]

Yup -- absolutely right. I think I had forgotten this. It used to be the rule that if you were forced out of bounds, you could make yourself eligible again by re-establishing yourself in bounds. (The old three step rule.) Now, the only thing, I believe, that can make an ineligible receiver eligible again is if another eligible receiver (or any defender) touches the ball first.

As a practical matter, it's pretty hard to force a player out of bounds and not commit a foul, but the main point is correct -- if it happens that way, the replay review cannot make a judgment about whether a foul was committed only whether the player was eligible.

Apparently not all officials know this since earlier this year ironically in a Jets game Plaxico stepped out then caught the ball with 1 foot out out of bounds and the refs explanation was not that he was the first to touch the ball after being out of bounds. The call was that he hadn't reestablished himself in bounds before the catch. So I guess some refs don't even know the rulebook.

 

[E Belichick Unum]

BB didn't have a fit because it the illegal contact call wasn't "overturned". The flag was picked up before the review even happened.

No it wasn't, and the transcript of the ref's anouncements that the Pats had declined the penalty is somewhere in this thread.

There was a lot worng with the way this play went down, but in the end the Ref's screwed up.