Reiss: Moss played with separated shoulder

[emoney_33]

You personally attack people for no reason when trying to get your point across. The fact that you resort to attempting to belittle people conveys the lack of strength in your arguments. You contradict yourself every time you speak and blame others for not being logical. It's a joke.

This was the first time I "attacked" anyone. And if you believe saying you are incapable of reasoned logic is some incredibly disrespectful attempt to belittle you then you have some really thin skin.

Every "great" WR receives "double teams" on MOST plays. Guys like Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald, Marshall, etc. all face double teams on a consistent basis. There are very few teams who can match up a CB one on one with a WR of that caliber. That's why I'm so sick of hearing you talk about Moss and how he has to deal with double teams. You act like he's the only WR who requires safety help.

Now go back and check out the numbers of all the guys being double teamed. And then come back here and trash Moss while talking the other guys up.

Also don't forget each of those guys has a signficantly better #2 wideout than Sam Aiken on the other side of the field. Just another factor, that you will probably claim I am using as my sole reason.

Of course there are going to be bad games and bad plays mixed in, that's inevitable. But everytime Moss has a bad game you blame it on him being doubled constantly. Is he not doubled in the other games when he puts up 140 yards? Are other great WR's not doubled consistently?

OK I never once said "Moss had a bad game BECAUSE he was doubled". It's one of the MANY factors that you use when drawing conclusions. That is the main problem with your arguments. You guys always want to find the ONE single reason for something, when nothing in life happens because of ONE single reason. I offer a ton of facts, and you nitpick one or 2 and claim that I am arguing them as the sole reason basis for my conclusion.

 

[The Dynasty]

Can you please try to comprehend what I write? I'm not even crticizing the media, I'm pointing out that they are biased and do not give the entire story. That is for YOU to quit using them as some sort of proof, it has nothing to do with my personal feelings about them.

So are you saying they are doing their job when they are so called "biased"? You are saying that is wrong, therefore you are criticizing them. I think they can be used as support since they are the experts and have actually played the game. You are contradicting your self when you say that I cannot use them as proof when you have stated how Hoge and Jaws said that Moss gave 100% effort in that game.

I don't care what you think his responses would be. He doesn't make excuses, never has and never will. And secondly I used it as one example of the MANY things contributing to a poor game. You want to sit on your high horse and pretend that it was simply effort. It's either laziness or inability to think. That type of stupid single-reason scapegoat mentality is nauseating

Brady doesnt make excuses and neither should any other NFL player. Moss had a bad day, he never made up any excuses. You are simply a devoted Patriot homer taking offense to people that are willing to question the teams best player. It is OK to question a players effort, maybe you could realize that instead of automatically defending the player right away.

correction, that should be wasn't with an apostrophe.

Honestly...that would be nitpicking. You're acting very immature on this issue now.

You really fail at reading comprehension. I have never once put out my opinion as fact. I have simply given the surrounding facts and offered multiple possible reasons and likely scenarios. The scenarios I offer are based around all the factual information we have, and not wild speculation and biased nonsense that you have.

All of your points have been opinions or what media members have said. You have said that Moss blocked on running plays and gave 100% effort, but where did you see this? You could only see this on the coaches tape, you seem to think that only Jaws and Hoge are the only people that can see this. Many other people can see it, but you certainly cant. My proof of Moss' drops and poor play on the field and attitude on the sidelines, thus questioning his effort is clearly viable in the live TV feed and has been echoed by many media members. You can continue to believe what you want, but you are just being too much of a Patriot homer failing to realize what actually took place.

 

[emoney_33]

So are you saying they are doing their job when they are so called "biased"? You are saying that is wrong, therefore you are criticizing them. I think they can be used as support since they are the experts and have actually played the game. You are contradicting your self when you say that I cannot use them as proof when you have stated how Hoge and Jaws said that Moss gave 100% effort in that game.

Just friggin WOW. It's about the media bias against Moss shaping your opinion. It has NOTHING to do with them specifically and whether what they do is right, wrong or anything. You are purposely being thick headed. You are using idiots like the boston media who do not break down film and just spout off nonsense. Most of the idiots at ESPN aren't breaking down every game film and studying things. Are you that naive to believe that they all put in a ton of research before blogging or writing an article? I never used Hoge and Jaws to prove myself, I don't really care one way or the other with them. It is a very small fact (them being 2 of the only guys to break down the film, no one else is claiming to have broke it down). But it is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Brady doesnt make excuses and neither should any other NFL player. Moss had a bad day, he never made up any excuses. You are simply a devoted Patriot homer taking offense to people that are willing to question the teams best player. It is OK to question a players effort, maybe you could realize that instead of automatically defending the player right away.

Brady is the team's best player, not Moss. You can call me a homer all you want but I'm happy to be a Patriots fan rather than a critical whiny little crybaby like a lot of people who come here just to vent. I stick up for what's right, not just that he's a Patriots player. Could you find a bad word I have said about Moss before he got here? Could you find me sticking up for the Wilhite criticism? Can you find me talking up BB about how great the Hobbs trade was? Get over yourself.

Honestly...that would be nitpicking. You're acting very immature on this issue now.

yea, estimating a number off by 1 is so much more egregious than missing an apostrophe. Honestly, how old are you?

All of your points have been opinions or what media members have said.

No they haven't so you either haven't read what I've written or are just lying because you are too lazy to dispute facts. Don't put words in my mouth, either argue the facts or shutup.

You have said that Moss blocked on running plays and gave 100% effort, but where did you see this?

Are you going to claim that he did NOT block? Yes or No? No single person in the biased media has even claimed this. Don't ask me to prove something that you already believe. Either take a stance and say he did not block, or grow up.

You could only see this on the coaches tape, you seem to think that only Jaws and Hoge are the only people that can see this. Many other people can see it, but you certainly cant.

You got anyone else that broke down the tape and showed you Moss not blocking?

My proof of Moss' drops and poor play on the field and attitude on the sidelines is clearly viable in the live TV feed and has been echoed by many media members.

Poor play is NOT proof for the REASON of that poor play. This is very simple, we know he had a bad game. You can't use the fact he had a bad game to prove the reason that he had a bad game. This makes no sense whatsoever. Attitude on the sidelines, or more correctly your opinion on state of mind based on one "viable" (lol) TV shot, still does not add a single shred of proof to any effort based claim. That is a fact, the only way to debate that is to rewrite the rules of logic.

You can continue to believe what you want, but you are just being too much of a Patriot homer failing to realize what actually took place.

Yea and you're just too much of a simple-minded fool to be able to even begin to understand the game of football. Oh look I can throw around "insults" too. Do I win now?

 

[The Dynasty]

Just friggin WOW. It's about the media bias against Moss shaping your opinion. It has NOTHING to do with them specifically and whether what they do is right, wrong or anything. You are purposely being thick headed. You are using idiots like the boston media who do not break down film and just spout off nonsense. Most of the idiots at ESPN aren't breaking down every game film and studying things. Are you that naive to believe that they all put in a ton of research before blogging or writing an article? I never used Hoge and Jaws to prove myself, I don't really care one way or the other with them. It is a very small fact (them being 2 of the only guys to break down the film, no one else is claiming to have broke it down). But it is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

You keep contradicting yourself and making assumptions, its terrible debating. What the media has said about Moss' performance had nothing to do with mine or other peoples feelings as to how we thought Moss played in that particular game. We watched the same game as they did and we came to the same conclusion that Moss lacked effort. You have no facts to say that boston media members dont break down film. The WEEI guys that are on New England Tailgate, they break down film. Guys on Comcast like Tom E. Curran, they breakdown film. I would hope that media members would do research before they write their articles or post blogs, it is their job. You have used Jaws and Hoge to prove your point, you noted what they said because they "are the only ones that watch the coaches film" and there opinion is the only one that counts because they are the only media members that have seen the coaches film. That is not true at all when all the other media members that work at ESPN have the same access that they do, including Cris Carter who called Moss' performance "pathetic".

Brady is the team's best player, not Moss. You can call me a homer all you want but I'm happy to be a Patriots fan rather than a critical whiny little crybaby like a lot of people who come here just to vent. I stick up for what's right, not just that he's a Patriots player. Could you find a bad word I have said about Moss before he got here? Could you find me sticking up for the Wilhite criticism? Can you find me talking up BB about how great the Hobbs trade was? Get over yourself.

You are a Moss lover and are refusing to look at the entire situation. There is visual evidence that suggests maybe he wasnt giving his best effort. We saw it through the TV feed, which is the only feed available to the fan of the game. Are we not supposed to believe what we saw on the TV? Moss not running his usual crisp clean routes, Moss kneeling alone away from the rest of the offense on the sidelines. Those are all facts as to why it can be argued that Moss didnt give his best effort.

Are you going to claim that he did NOT block? Yes or No? No single person in the biased media has even claimed this. Don't ask me to prove something that you already believe. Either take a stance and say he did not block, or grow up.

There were plays in that game that he did not block and many people have noted those plays. You say that he did in fact give 100% in that game and where is your proof that illustrates that. The only way you can see that is if you can watch the coaches film, and you dont have access to that. You even said how the TV doesnt show everything. It certainly doesnt show a players every move, so how do you know that he blocked and gave his best effort every play?

Poor play is NOT proof for the REASON of that poor play. This is very simple, we know he had a bad game. You can't use the fact he had a bad game to prove the reason that he had a bad game. This makes no sense whatsoever. Attitude on the sidelines, or more correctly your opinion on state of mind based on one "viable" (lol) TV shot, still does not add a single shred of proof to any effort based claim. That is a fact, the only way to debate that is to rewrite the rules of logic

.

There was more than one TV shot of Moss by himself on the sideline. There was more than one shot of him in the huddle or lining up looking completely disinterested. Guys that follow the Patriots have said that he didnt give it 100%, these are the guys that see Moss on a day to day basis and know a lot more than you or I ever will. Also, the player that covered Moss said that he wasnt giving it his best effort. He would have the best perspective out of anyone since he lined up across from him every play. You have not given any facts to prove your point that he did give it his best effort. All you have said is that he blocked on every play, and that he wasnt pouting on the sidelines the entire game, just on the one or two TV shots that we saw. For all of those you would need to see the coaches film to know for sure and you have not seen them. You are getting really defensive not only towards Moss but also towards yourself. Relax, it is just a message board. You arent going to be right all the time. I am not saying I am necessarily right on this subject, I just have evidence to back up my claim something that you dont.

 

[emoney_33]

You keep contradicting yourself and making assumptions, its terrible debating. What the media has said about Moss' performance had nothing to do with mine or other peoples feelings as to how we thought Moss played in that particular game.

Keep saying I'm contradicting when I'm not, it's not going to make it true. This is also complete rubbish and deep down you know it. The media has helped shape Moss' reputation, and that in turn shapes your opinion. As evidenced by the fact that you've never accused another receiver or player of dogging it or lacking effort. But yeah keep pretending you aren't biased towards Moss based on his media-fabricated reputation. You act like media is some perfect collection of the highest moral integrity. Let me guess you believe Belichick is an ego-driven heartless human being too, don't you?

You are a Moss lover and are refusing to look at the entire situation. There is visual evidence that suggests maybe he wasnt giving his best effort.

NO there isn't, but you must enjoy your PHD in body language and assumptions

There were plays in that game that he did not block and many people have noted those plays.

Not a single one, you are flat out making stuff up now.

You say that he did in fact give 100% in that game and where is your proof that illustrates that. The only way you can see that is if you can watch the coaches film, and you dont have access to that. You even said how the TV doesnt show everything. It certainly doesnt show a players every move, so how do you know that he blocked and gave his best effort every play?

LEARN TO COMPREHEND. I dispute your stupid hypothesis that Moss' bad game was due to lack of effort. I did NOT submit a hypothesis of the exact cause of the bad game. I offer facts and multiple other possible factors that could have led to the bad game. Many other things are more likely than your biased hypothesis.

Anyway, just go tune into the idiots on sports talk radio in Boston and enjoy your miserable world of nitpicking everything. Your an entire hypothesis relies on the media and body language. Just about as fun as the '06 Brady disinterested body language crapola.

 

[The Dynasty]

Keep saying I'm contradicting when I'm not, it's not going to make it true. This is also complete rubbish and deep down you know it. The media has helped shape Moss' reputation, and that in turn shapes your opinion. As evidenced by the fact that you've never accused another receiver or player of dogging it or lacking effort. But yeah keep pretending you aren't biased towards Moss based on his media-fabricated reputation. You act like media is some perfect collection of the highest moral integrity. Let me guess you believe Belichick is an ego-driven heartless human being too, don't you?

The media had nothing to do with what myself or other fans thought of Moss' performance I dont think you get that. Watching the game live it was clear that Moss wasnt giving his best effort. Then after the game the media said the same thing. No media influencing. Why would I worry about another WR's effort? I am a fan of the Patriots and I worry about what players on the Patriots do. If I were a fan of the Cardinals and I thought Fitzgerald didnt give it his best effort then I would be critical of him too. For the record I am a fan of Belichick and would never refer to him as an "ego driven heartless human being".

Not a single one, you are flat out making stuff up now.

Many members of the media stated that week that Moss did not block on certain running plays. Where is your proof that shows that he did do that? You have none. You have not seen the coaches film.

LEARN TO COMPREHEND. I dispute your stupid hypothesis that Moss' bad game was due to lack of effort. I did NOT submit a hypothesis of the exact cause of the bad game. I offer facts and multiple other possible factors that could have led to the bad game. Many other things are more likely than your biased hypothesis.

My hypothesis is based upon visual evidence I saw on the TV and was confirmed afterwards by members of the media. Your evidence is based upon what you want to believe happened, nothing that you actually saw with your own eyes. Everything you have said needs to have confirmation on the coaches film, and you havent seen that.

 

[Satchboogie3]

excuses, excuses.

He's needs an excuse for ONLY leading the league in TDs, 5th in yards, and 12 in receptions? I know we call him Superfreak, but what expectations are we holding to here? He needs an excuses for not breaking every record every year? How about the fact he only plays WR. Surely he needs to have a good excuse why he isn't playing DB, QB, LB, and Tackle. I mean, 1 INT on defense? That's it? What a dog...

 

[emoney_33]

Many members of the media stated that week that Moss did not block on certain running plays. Where is your proof that shows that he did do that? You have none. You have not seen the coaches film.

You are MAKING this stuff up. Link me to one media member claiming to watch the tape saying that Moss didn't block. Since you claim many stated it, then it shouldn't be hard to find one.

My hypothesis is based upon visual evidence I saw on the TV and was confirmed afterwards by members of the media.

You just said the media has nothing to do with your opinion yet you want to continue to use their opinion as proof? They didn't run to the office, study the game tape, and then write up articles.

Your evidence is based upon what you want to believe happened, nothing that you actually saw with your own eyes. Everything you have said needs to have confirmation on the coaches film, and you havent seen that.

Are you this dense? There is not a single fact I have used that is "what I want to believe happened". You have an inability to distinguish between facts and reasoning. I offered many facts, along with POSSIBLE reasons based on those facts.

But you keep believing your TV feed "evidence" means a damn thing, it just shows that you do not understand how much actual goes into the game.

 

[BionicPatriot]

I'm not going through all the pages and reading the pissing matches but I'd just like to chime in.

Hopefully the ridiculous talk of Moss gone next season can stop. I'm pretty happy our #1 is capable of a 1000 yard season with a separated shoulder. The man is a freak.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Make all the moronic claims and excuses you want, emoney. You obviously have some sort of deep dying love for Moss and cannot talk about him in a (to use your word) LOGICAL and objective manner. There is a reason no one has backed up any of your arguments.

You patronize other posters and act like a smug know it all. Moss was playing with a fellow Pro Bowl WR in Welker for most of the season. I'd say Welker is probably the best slot WR in the game and he also lined up outside at times. Your Aiken claim is just another excuse. Who does Andre Johnson have that is such a great target opposite him? Walter? Jones? Who does Marshall have? Gaffney, Stokely, Royal? People had no interest in retaining Gaffney and Royal had like 300 yards this season. Fitzgerald is the only guy on that list with a very good WR opposite him in Boldin. But Moss HAD THAT in Welker.

 

[emoney_33]

You patronize other posters and act like a smug know it all. Moss was playing with a fellow Pro Bowl WR in Welker for most of the season. I'd say Welker is probably the best slot WR in the game and he also lined up outside at times.

yeah Welker is all of a sudden a deep threat that safeties focus on.

Your Aiken claim is just another excuse.

Another contributing factor that you can't seem to understand. I am not claiming it is THE reason for ANYTHING.

Who does Andre Johnson have that is such a great target opposite him? Walter? Jones? Who does Marshall have? Gaffney, Stokely, Royal? People had no interest in retaining Gaffney and Royal had like 300 yards this season. Fitzgerald is the only guy on that list with a very good WR opposite him in Boldin. But Moss HAD THAT in Welker.

Comparing Welker, a great slot receiver, to any outside receiver is foolish. They require different strategies to cover and effect different parts of the game. Even a decent receiver like Gaffney would force an opposing defense not to completely cheat its safeties to Moss so much. Aiken provides nothing except for special teams. But yeah, the offense doesn't suffer because of Aiken and thus we should not try to upgrade the WRs this offseason.

 

[Satchboogie3]

I still have trouble comprehending how some people still don't like Moss. The guy was arguably the BEST receiver this season while playing with a SEPARATED shoulder. He is one of the greatest receivers to ever play the game and he clearly fought through adversity to have a great season. Where is the problem? I just don't get the logic. There is no logic for disliking Moss. None. Zero. Zilch.

 

[stavros27]

But....the media....the media says he plays when he wants to play. I don't want to root for a guy who decides when he wants to play football or not. Have you followed his career? He's an underachiever. So what, he's on the NFl's all decade team and is 2nd all time in WR touchdowns. If he actually tried, he'd have 20,000 catches and 300 TDs by now, if not more. Waste of talent.

 

[IcyPatriot]

But....the media....the media says he plays when he wants to play. I don't want to root for a guy who decides when he wants to play football or not. Have you followed his career? He's an underachiever. So what, he's on the NFl's all decade team and is 2nd all time in WR touchdowns. If he actually tried, he'd have 20,000 catches and 300 TDs by now, if not more. Waste of talent.

Disgruntled Vikings fan Moss hater ... these Moss threads are like heat seeking missles for you.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Disgruntled Vikings fan Moss hater ... these Moss threads are like heat seeking missles for you.

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm. If not, then it's certain logic fail.

 

[The Dynasty]

You are MAKING this stuff up. Link me to one media member claiming to watch the tape saying that Moss didn't block. Since you claim many stated it, then it shouldn't be hard to find one.

This was written after the Buffalo game...

In the three games leading up to yesterday’s, Moss had three, two, and one catches, respectively. His lone grab against the Panthers resulted in a fumble. We’ve seen clear demonstrations of alligator arms, quitting on pass routes, refusing to block, and making little effort to prevent interceptions.

You just said the media has nothing to do with your opinion yet you want to continue to use their opinion as proof? They didn't run to the office, study the game tape, and then write up articles.

I am not using the media as proof, I am using them to back up mine and others points that Moss didnt give his best effort. They cover the team for a living and when they write about the same thoughts that you are hearing, more certain than not you know that you are probably correct and seeing the same things. A lot of articles written about Moss' effort were written Tuesday and Wednesday which gives the author plenty of time to do his or her research on the subject which includes watching game tape. Its part of their job to do research on what they are writing about.

Are you this dense? There is not a single fact I have used that is "what I want to believe happened". You have an inability to distinguish between facts and reasoning. I offered many facts, along with POSSIBLE reasons based on those facts.

But you keep believing your TV feed "evidence" means a damn thing, it just shows that you do not understand how much actual goes into the game.

All of your "facts" that you have stated need support from the coaches film or attend the game and watch Moss' every move. Everything is what you want to believe happened, you have no visual proof for Moss blocking on every down and giving his best effort. How can you say I cant use what is shown on the TV as evidence, it is what happened. Just because your man Moss didnt give it his best effort, doesnt mean you should ignore what was shown on the TV. Yes, there is more to what is shown on the TV but Moss being alone and away from the team on the sidelines wasnt just one defensive possession, it was the entire game. Numorous pictures showed Moss alone by himself, it wasnt just one shot and people at the game said the same thing.

I am done with this argument, it is not worth my time anymore. You have been contradicting yourself and saying the same things over and over again. You love Moss, he can do nothing wrong, I get it. Some fans are like that and they are entitled to their opinion, just like I am entitled to mine. I just wish we had more objective posters on this site instead of posters who are full of themselves and fail to acknowledge what sometimes actually happens on the field.

 

[emoney_33]

This was written after the Buffalo game...

WHO wrote it and link.... did I really have to ask for that? It sounds like a bunch of baloney from a no-nothing to me.

I am not using the media as proof, I am using them to back up mine and others points that Moss didnt give his best effort.

Do you know what the word proof means?

They cover the team for a living and when they write about the same thoughts that you are hearing, more certain than not you know that you are probably correct and seeing the same things. A lot of articles written about Moss' effort were written Tuesday and Wednesday which gives the author plenty of time to do his or her research on the subject which includes watching game tape. Its part of their job to do research on what they are writing about.

The SAME media writes about how BB has such a big ego and paints him in a negative light. So you believe them when it comes to Moss but don't believe them when it comes to BB. But once again you just sit there and assume that all these "media articles" were written by people who got the coaches' tapes and studied the film. Not to mention you believe they also have a PHD in analyzing body language. Yet none of them can highlight a single example more than the stupid crap that has been debunked from the TV feed. Nice, you got yourself one helluva fact loaded argument here

All of your "facts" that you have stated need support from the coaches film or attend the game and watch Moss' every move. Everything is what you want to believe happened, you have no visual proof for Moss blocking on every down and giving his best effort. How can you say I cant use what is shown on the TV as evidence, it is what happened. Just because your man Moss didnt give it his best effort, doesnt mean you should ignore what was shown on the TV. Yes, there is more to what is shown on the TV but Moss being alone and away from the team on the sidelines wasnt just one defensive possession, it was the entire game. Numorous pictures showed Moss alone by himself, it wasnt just one shot and people at the game said the same thing.

I am done with this argument, it is not worth my time anymore. You have been contradicting yourself and saying the same things over and over again. You love Moss, he can do nothing wrong, I get it. Some fans are like that and they are entitled to their opinion, just like I am entitled to mine. I just wish we had more objective posters on this site instead of posters who are full of themselves and fail to acknowledge what sometimes actually happens on the field.

Be done with it then, you aren't making any sense. I never contradicted myself nor do any of my facts REQUIRE coaches tapes. I actually used simple facts to point to logical possiblities. You on the other hand use moronic arguments like body language, sideline seat and media articles to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Moss was not giving effort. It's simply lazy and biased. Now continue on in your little world where Moss just happened to get bored and decided not to try for one game.

 

[Satchboogie3]

TheDynasty, this is going to seem absurd to you, totally unrealistic, and not what you want to hear, BUT isn't it possible that the reason he had such little production for 3 consecutive weeks was because he was... wait for it... HURTING? Could it possibly be that he was at his worst during those 3 weeks, thus his performance was hindered? No no, it has to be because he wasn't trying. Yeah, it has to be that. Ignore logic, just believe what you WANT not what it real.

 

[The Dynasty]

TheDynasty, this is going to seem absurd to you, totally unrealistic, and not what you want to hear, BUT isn't it possible that the reason he had such little production for 3 consecutive weeks was because he was... wait for it... HURTING? Could it possibly be that he was at his worst during those 3 weeks, thus his performance was hindered? No no, it has to be because he wasn't trying. Yeah, it has to be that. Ignore logic, just believe what you WANT not what it real.

Then why did he suddenly get better after the Carolina game? He didnt take any time off or anything like that, so the injury just isnt going to magically disappear. In the NO game he barely played in the 4th quarter so his stats are a bit off, and he showed no signs of being injured. The Miami game, when he caught the 45 yard TD pass did it look like he was hurting? In those games was effort ever questioned? No because it wasnt warranted. 1 catch 16 yards, and a turnover and numerous plays/actions to raise into question his effort...the Carolina game was much different from any other game from the 2009 season.

 

[captain stone]

I still have trouble comprehending how some people still don't like Moss. The guy was arguably the BEST receiver this season while playing with a SEPARATED shoulder. He is one of the greatest receivers to ever play the game and he clearly fought through adversity to have a great season. Where is the problem? I just don't get the logic. There is no logic for disliking Moss. None. Zero. Zilch.

The Ratio wasn't even the BEST receiver on his own team, and it wasn't even close. But at least I now know why he never caught the ball at its highest point.