Reiss: Moss played with separated shoulder

[The Dynasty]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

This kind of stuff drives me nuts. Are you that biased or is just laziness?

Fitzgerald: @SF 2 receptions, 22 yards
Rice: @CLE 2 receptions, 17 yards
Wayne: @HOU 3 receptions, 19 yards


Seriously, do some research and then maybe you'll save the rest of us from having to read some made up nonsense.

All of those are more than Moss' 1 catch for 16 yards, and did those guys also have a turnover in that particular game, and contrbute to another? Moss' one catch resulted in a fumble so it didnt even help the team

 

[The Dynasty]

I agree with a fair bit of this post, however how do you explain his continued efforts to block for players during the game?

What you are now talking about is the manner in which personalities respond to poor or average performances, not effort based merit. One person may get angry and yell obscenities, the other become an introvert and exhibit loner characteristics.


Indeed you did reference the entire quote. The entire quote which demonstrates the difficult and problematic nature in which shoulder injuries can impinge performance. All I did was outline this, not state it as fact that Moss had a poor game because of it.

You on the other hand have stated multiple times you believe it to be an effort issue. The reality is I don't know if it's Moss' shoulder, if it's a lack of effort or if he simply had a bad day. I'm not foolish enough to state it's one or the other, but probably a combination of a number of factors.

I can live with what you stated in bold, everyone is going to have their own opinion on this matter. I believe that it was an effort thing, others believe it was just a bad game, you believe that it was a combination of things. As long as peoples opinions can be supported they are fair.

 

[ausbacker]

I can live with what you stated in bold, everyone is going to have their own opinion on this matter. I believe that it was an effort thing, others believe it was just a bad game, you believe that it was a combination of things. As long as peoples opinions can be supported they are fair.

That's fair The Dynasty, but unless you can measure "effort" with something tangible, it's kind of difficult to support other than being an opinion. Apply that for one receiver, you have to apply that to all the receivers. What amount of catches and what amount of yards becomes illustrating effort? See where I am going with this...

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

All of those are more than Moss' 1 catch for 16 yards, and did those guys also have a turnover in that particular game, and contrbute to another? Moss' one catch resulted in a fumble so it didnt even help the team

Classic!

This is pure comedy gold.

 

[The Dynasty]

Again I'll just stop here because you can't grasp very basic logic. A->B does not imply !A->!B. Do you understand that?

If conversation (A) proved interest (B) that does not imply that lacking conversation (!A) proved disinterest (!B).

It's quite funny that you keep harping on conversation on the sideline from 1 or 2 TV clips in this argument. But I'm done until you can start using basic principles of logic in your argument.

As for your persistent request of facts... do you not understand YOU are the accuser? You can't prove your allegations because you have no leg to stand on.

I have given the facts all over this forum. Jaws and Hoge (your facts) said he gave effort all game (conceding at most 1 play, which I've already given facts against). BB, Brady, Faulk have all continued to defend him. Troy Brown came out and said Brady always tried to motivate everyone, even the same for Troy when he was on the team. Yes Troy said exactly that Brady has come up to him and others on the sideline to motivate, it's Tom's personality. Another fact against your "opinion". Fact is that Moss has played fantastic. Fact is you can't put up the numbers Moss puts up while not consistently giving effort. If you believe that fact, then it would logically follow that it is MORE likely that a bad game is NOT due to effort. Champ bailey is quoted as saying Moss is very deceptive and lulls DBs in. (Yet Gamble is a pro and knows when Moss isn't trying). Moss NEVER looks like he's trying even when he's running past DBs. BB continues (and continued to in the Carolina game) to play Moss on a huge percentage of snaps on offense (just about all of them). Another fact is no receiver in the league goes without bad games. Another fact is no receiver in the league is always talking to his QB on the sideline. Another fact is Moss was blocking. ANother fact is clearly on the TV feed you can see Moss make a nice block to spring Welker. Fact is we know he had at some point in the season at least a hurt back and separated shoulder.

There are an ocean's worth of facts that all point to Moss having a bad day for many other reasons NOT related to effort. But you just keep on harping on these stupid assertions that all stem from 1-2 shots of the sideline where he is not 'conversing' with his QB (LOL). 1 shot from the sideline with Brady talking to him (as he does for all his players from time to time especially when the game is close/tight, and he's always been this way). 4 unsuccessful plays that were thrown his way that the TV feed caught.

You have NOTHING but media-driven reputation and bias to go on. End of story. Next season will be the 3rd year in a row his teammates vote him captain.

This is a Patriots forum not logistics 101, so I will just ignore the first part of what you said because it really has nothing to do with what I have said.

You are accusing me of being wrong, and vise versa so we are both accusers, just because you firmly believe that you are right you think that I am the accuser.

You have said that Jaws and Hoge support your claim, but to counter that Cris Carter and numerous members of the Boston media outlets his supported my claim. Yes, BB, Faulk, Brady defended Moss but what else would you expect? Moss is their teammate and player, they will always have eachothers backs and never say anything negative about one another.

Moss did have an outstanding season, thus putting away the question that the shoulder injury played a major role. Look at his stats after the Denver game:

Tenn. 8 catches 129 yards 3 TDs
@ TB 5 catches 69 yards
Miami 6 catches 147 yards 1 TD
@ Indy 9 catches 179 yards 2 TDs
Jets 5 catches 34 yards 1 TD
@ NO 5 catches 34 yards
@ Miami 2 catches 66 yards 1 TD
Carolina 1 catch 16 yards****
@ Buffalo 5 catches 70 yards 1 TD
Jacksonville 4 catches 45 yards 3 TDs
@ Houston 5 catches 75 yards
Ravens 5 catches 48 yards

Something really stands out about the Panthers game, so obviously that game needs to be questioned because something is up. The player of Moss' caliber just doesnt go out there and give it his all and only end up with 1 catch for 16 yards, that turned into a turnover. Also, a poor route that turned into an INT. It wasnt even like Moss was matched up against an outstanding defense it was Chris Gamble and the Panthers. Was the Moss in that game the same as any other game he played in that season? Something was definitely up. It needs to be acknowledged that Moss was never seen conversing with Brady, and it is a fact that this is something they do during games very regularly, both have spoken about it. You cannot see this on the TV feed I understand but people and media members that were at the game have said the same thing. I am sure you can find a play or 2 that Moss made a good block, I never said that he gave 0%, I am saying he didnt give it his best effort.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this subject and since no one has come out and completely addressed the situation no one opinion can really be proven right or wrong. I believe that it was poor effort, you believe it was a bad game, others believe it was a combination of everything that happened. We have all stated our points, and some may be stronger than others but no one will ever really know what exactly happened during the game. What we do know is that it was very unlike Randy Moss so obviously something was up...

 

[IcyPatriot]

Ahhh ... another new Patriots factoid leads to a thread skirmish :enranged::blahblah:.:violent:.. classic.

I stuck up for Moss all year long ... I don't need to confess anything at this point.

Here's to good health in 2010 Randy. :eat3:

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

Classic!

This is pure comedy gold.

I think its worth noting that Rice's game that I noted was in his first game as a pro, I think you should cut him some slack for that. Also, Fitzgerald's poor performance was on MNF and he missed the majority of the 3rd quarter with a knee injury. Just worth noting.

1 catch for 16 yards, and a turnover doesnt really compare with any of the games you mentioned.

 

[emoney_33]

This is a Patriots forum not logistics 101, so I will just ignore the first part of what you said because it really has nothing to do with what I have said.

LOGIC, not logistics, is very fundamental to any reasoned discussion. If you are incapable of understanding basic logic, then you are incapable of having a rational reasoned debate.

You are accusing me of being wrong, and vise versa so we are both accusers, just because you firmly believe that you are right you think that I am the accuser.

:sigh: You are accusing Moss of quitting, or dogging it, or lacking effort or whatever. It has nothing to do with us.

You have said that Jaws and Hoge support your claim, but to counter that Cris Carter and numerous members of the Boston media outlets his supported my claim.

So Jaws and Hoge broke down the coaches film and support one side while your argument against that is Cris Carter and "numerous" media "outlets" who do not have access to the coaches film, nevermind the desire to break it down?

Yes, BB, Faulk, Brady defended Moss but what else would you expect? Moss is their teammate and player, they will always have eachothers backs and never say anything negative about one another.

Kind of like they had Terry Glenn's back ? Or how they voted Thomas as captain? Or how they verbally defend everyone every week?

Moss did have an outstanding season, thus putting away the question that the shoulder injury played a major role.

I'm not arguing the shoulder is THE reason for his bad game. I'm not even arguing anything as THE reason. I'm simply pointing out the fact that there are many other more likely scenarios than him just deciding to mail it in for a game. And for you to jump to that conclusion just shows you are biased, and yes I will assume that bias comes from the media-driven stigma attached to Moss.

Something really stands out about the Panthers game, so obviously that game needs to be questioned because something is up. The player of Moss' caliber just doesnt go out there and give it his all and only end up with 1 catch for 16 yards, that turned into a turnover.

You know what also stands out? Brady missing practice that week, and later saying how much that impacted his play a few of the games because during the game was his first time running a lot of the plays. Saying how practice is when you run the new plays for that game for the first time and it was hard going out and running them for the first time because he too was hurting and had to miss some practice.

What also stands out is that Moss was only THROWN TO 3 or 4 times. So he blocked in the run game but just didn't care to try in the pass game? That makes so much sense! And BB is just so stubborn with a love for the kid (as well know how sentimental BB is) that he keeps trotting him out there, play after play after play.

Also, a poor route that turned into an INT.

The DB had outside coverage, Moss cut his route short expecting an inside throw, Brady had a guy in his face and rushed a bad throw. But yeah that was Moss quitting on a route

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this subject and since no one has come out and completely addressed the situation no one opinion can really be proven right or wrong. I believe that it was poor effort, you believe it was a bad game, others believe it was a combination of everything that happened. We have all stated our points, and some may be stronger than others but no one will ever really know what exactly happened during the game. What we do know is that it was very unlike Randy Moss so obviously something was up...

Your opinion is based on flawed reasoning and wild speculation. But hey you know what they say about opinions.

 

[The Dynasty]

That's fair The Dynasty, but unless you can measure "effort" with something tangible, it's kind of difficult to support other than being an opinion. Apply that for one receiver, you have to apply that to all the receivers. What amount of catches and what amount of yards becomes illustrating effort? See where I am going with this...

Yes I can, but when you're Randy Moss and your stat line is 1 catch for 16 yards and a turnover against the Panthers defense, along with his lack of interest on the sidelines that is where I come to the lack of effort conclusion.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

I think its worth noting that Rice's game that I noted was in his first game as a pro, I think you should cut him some slack for that. Also, Fitzgerald's poor performance was on MNF and he missed the majority of the 3rd quarter with a knee injury. Just worth noting.

1 catch for 16 yards, and a turnover doesnt really compare with any of the games you mentioned.

This was Rice's 3rd season as a pro. It's funny how you can note Fitzgerald being taken out by injury but yet refuse to believe that any injury could possible have impacted Moss at all. I mean it's impossible that an injury can hurt more in one game than others, or that treatment can help or change things etc... Nope it's effort, Moss was just bored.

Him being double covered, hurt, missed Wednesdays practice for being late, not being able to practice with Brady, etc... All of that nothing to do with it, it was all him giving up and not trying.

 

[ausbacker]

Yes I can, but when you're Randy Moss and your stat line is 1 catch for 16 yards and a turnover against the Panthers defense, along with his lack of interest on the sidelines that is where I come to the lack of effort conclusion.

So directly, your expectations of Randy Moss are different to that of other receivers and indeed elite receivers would you say?

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

I think its worth noting that Rice's game that I noted was in his first game as a pro, I think you should cut him some slack for that. Also, Fitzgerald's poor performance was on MNF and he missed the majority of the 3rd quarter with a knee injury. Just worth noting.

1 catch for 16 yards, and a turnover doesnt really compare with any of the games you mentioned.

It could have easily been 2 catches for 25+ yards to make it "not terrible" if that is your standard. Brady did overthrow one afterall. And the INT was Brady's fault, that could have been another completion and some yardage if he read the same coverage as Randy.

Nope, he quit :/

 

[The Dynasty]

LOGIC, not logistics, is very fundamental to any reasoned discussion. If you are incapable of understanding basic logic, then you are incapable of having a rational reasoned debate.

It was a joke, dude. Relax.

:sigh: You are accusing Moss of quitting, or dogging it, or lacking effort or whatever. It has nothing to do with us.

And you are saying Moss had a bad day, but have had NO substantial proof to back up that claim, all you have done is attempt to shut down by opinion.

So Jaws and Hoge broke down the coaches film and support one side while your argument against that is Cris Carter and "numerous" media "outlets" who do not have access to the coaches film, nevermind the desire to break it down?

Carter has the same access to coaches film that Jaws and Hoge have, they do work for the same company. Media outlets in the area did in fact break down the film and analyze Moss' performance. It is their job. It may not be the same tape ESPN is working with, but it will give them the evidence they need to come to a conclusion.

Kind of like they had Terry Glenn's back ? Or how they voted Thomas as captain? Or how they verbally defend everyone every week?

Are you honestly going to compare Terry Glenn to Randy Moss? Thomas isnt a captain candidate on defense, if he were maybe hed get some consideration. Players have no reason to defend other players every week unless the question is brought to their attention. It isnt very often that players are asked about other players performances in a given game and when they are they will always defend the player on their team, especially being on the Patriots. Its how sports work, you always have your teammates back.

I'm not arguing the shoulder is THE reason for his bad game. I'm not even arguing anything as THE reason. I'm simply pointing out the fact that there are many other more likely scenarios than him just deciding to mail it in for a game. And for you to jump to that conclusion just shows you are biased, and yes I will assume that bias comes from the media-driven stigma attached to Moss.

Seems to me like you have an inner problem with the media. What did they ever to do you? They are just doing their jobs, part of their job is to question what takes place in games, practices etc. It just so happens that on that particular week they questioned Moss. It doesnt mean they dont like him, they just had probable cause to question his performance. You shouldnt let your personal belief on the media effect the way others view them.

You know what also stands out? Brady missing practice that week, and later saying how much that impacted his play a few of the games because during the game was his first time running a lot of the plays. Saying how practice is when you run the new plays for that game for the first time and it was hard going out and running them for the first time because he too was hurting and had to miss some practice.

Awful argument. Moss and Brady have been playing together long enough to know eachother and be on the same page. It is not like Moss is a rookie or a new comer to the team where things might not be as clear between the two.

What also stands out is that Moss was only THROWN TO 3 or 4 times. So he blocked in the run game but just didn't care to try in the pass game? That makes so much sense! And BB is just so stubborn with a love for the kid (as well know how sentimental BB is) that he keeps trotting him out there, play after play after play.

5 passes thrown towards Moss. Get your facts straight. If a player is getting doubled on virtually every play obviously you are going to keep him out there. The Panthers still had to respect him even though with the lack of effort.

The DB had outside coverage, Moss cut his route short expecting an inside throw, Brady had a guy in his face and rushed a bad throw. But yeah that was Moss quitting on a route

You and I as well as many members of the media view this play differently. Moss didnt make his cut as sharp and quick as Brady expected and Brady threw the ball where he thought Moss would be.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Dynasty, don't even bother lol. It's not worth it with e_money. For some reason he's in love with Moss and can't be objective when talking about him.

He claims that you don't have the coaches tape, so you can't tell if Moss was going full out, blocking well, etc. Yet somehow he can tell that Moss is blocking for others or is being double teamed downfield on every play. He must be the only one on the forum with access to the coaches tapes. He's a walking contradiction saying that you can't assess the play of Moss b/c you don't have the all-22 view, yet somehow he can always assess how Moss is drawing double teams and going full throttle, making plays downfield when the camera isn't on him. He loves to bring up his stats about how great Moss' production compared to other elite WR's. When Moss puts up good numbers it's because he's the best WR in the league, and when he doesn't put up the numbers it's because Moss is being double teamed all game opening the field up for others.

The only stats I really care about are what he's done in the playoffs for us. And that's practically nothing. This year when we needed him to step up, shoulder injury or not, he had 48 yards, most of them in garbage time. He was held to one catch vs JAX and once vs SD in the 07-08 playoffs. He had a decent final drive in the SB but that was it. I don't care what he's done in big games for the Vikings, I only care what he's done in big games for us, and it's closer to nothing than it is to making a big impact.

 

[The Dynasty]

So directly, your expectations of Randy Moss are different to that of other receivers and indeed elite receivers would you say?

Of course. When you are a 7 time pro bowler and 4 time all pro your expectations are going to be different than a guy like Sam Aiken.

 

[ausbacker]

Of course. When you are a 7 time pro bowler and 4 time all pro your expectations are going to be different than a guy like Sam Aiken.

And other elite receivers? The same or different?

 

[The Dynasty]

And other elite receivers? The same or different?

It all depends on the situation. Some of those guys have more responsibility to perform on their teams because of who else they have surrounding them. Others have other play makers on their team so they dont have as much responsibility.

 

[emoney_33]

And you are saying Moss had a bad day, but have had NO substantial proof to back up that claim, all you have done is attempt to shut down by opinion.

Moss had a bad game is a fact. You are claiming you know the reason. I offered a ton of facts a moment ago as well as when this stupid crap first was talked about back after the game. You can ignore it all you want I don't care anymore.

Carter has the same access to coaches film that Jaws and Hoge have, they do work for the same company. Media outlets in the area did in fact break down the film and analyze Moss' performance. It is their job. It may not be the same tape ESPN is working with, but it will give them the evidence they need to come to a conclusion.

You are sorely mistaken.

Are you honestly going to compare Terry Glenn to Randy Moss? Thomas isnt a captain candidate on defense, if he were maybe hed get some consideration. Players have no reason to defend other players every week unless the question is brought to their attention. It isnt very often that players are asked about other players performances in a given game and when they are they will always defend the player on their team, especially being on the Patriots. Its how sports work, you always have your teammates back.

Thomas not being a captain means his TEAMMATES DID NOT VOTE him as captain. They did however vote Moss as captain.

Seems to me like you have an inner problem with the media. What did they ever to do you? They are just doing their jobs, part of their job is to question what takes place in games, practices etc. It just so happens that on that particular week they questioned Moss. It doesnt mean they dont like him, they just had probable cause to question his performance. You shouldnt let your personal belief on the media effect the way others view them.

I don't have a problem with them as people. I am simply pointing out the facts that they have agendas and aren't unbiased robots. Moss treats them like they don't exist (like crap). If I was in their position I would not want to write a damn thing positive about him and I would surely be biased against him myself.

Awful argument. Moss and Brady have been playing together long enough to know eachother and be on the same page. It is not like Moss is a rookie or a new comer to the team where things might not be as clear between the two.

Well you can go call up Tom Brady and tell him that it's an awful argument because he directly attributed that to some of the teams struggles for the 3-4 week stretch he had to miss practice. But I guess you know more about the game than him.

5 passes thrown towards Moss. Get your facts straight. If a player is getting doubled on virtually every play obviously you are going to keep him out there. The Panthers still had to respect him even though with the lack of effort.

OH NO, was I one or two off! Way to nitpick something so minor and meaningless.

You and I as well as many members of the media view this play differently. Moss didnt make his cut as sharp and quick as Brady expected and Brady threw the ball where he thought Moss would be.

What cut? You thought he should have cut hard to the sideline. So right off the bat you make a flawed assumption. The DB had outside coverage, it is possible (if not likely) that Moss read the outside coverage and adjusted his route to NOT cut sharp to the outside because on a read like that he expects the ball to be thrown inside away from the DB. Brady had a defender right in his face and had to rush the throw. It was most likely Brady's fault, but we'll never know. You take a very very tiny subset of information and extrapolate to terrible flawed conclusions. It kind of reminds me when Hobbs was blamed for a big completion to Davenport because he was the only Patriots defender in the TV feed when the ball was being caught.


Good night, enjoy your delusions that Moss decided he was bored and rather not try just for one game (yet for some odd reason continued to block and try in that area)

 

[emoney_33]

Dynasty, don't even bother lol. It's not worth it with e_money. For some reason he's in love with Moss and can't be objective when talking about him.

He claims that you don't have the coaches tape, so you can't tell if Moss was going full out, blocking well, etc. Yet somehow he can tell that Moss is blocking for others or is being double teamed downfield on every play. He must be the only one on the forum with access to the coaches tapes. He's a walking contradiction saying that you can't assess the play of Moss b/c you don't have the all-22 view, yet somehow he can always assess how Moss is drawing double teams and going full throttle, making plays downfield when the camera isn't on him. He loves to bring up his stats about how great Moss' production compared to other elite WR's. When Moss puts up good numbers it's because he's the best WR in the league, and when he doesn't put up the numbers it's because Moss is being double teamed all game opening the field up for others.

Just put it out there in writing for the world to know. Is it your opinion that Moss is NOT receiving double coverage on a vast majority of the plays? Obviously I can't know this for a fact and do not have the coaches tapes, but it's one of those pretty well known things.

So let it be known now, do you or do you not believe Moss gets double covered on MOST plays?

You are obviously another one incapable of reasoned logic. Moss is great and put up a helluva year. Like every receiver to ever play the game, there will be numerous bad plays, bad series and bad quarters mixed in. Your entire post is full of lies and putting words in my mouth. CONGRATS!

 

[ausbacker]

It all depends on the situation. Some of those guys have more responsibility to perform on their teams because of who else they have surrounding them. Others have other play makers on their team so they dont have as much responsibility.

If I am reading this correctly then expectations become situation dependent.

Let's flip this around a little now. Matt Light is a 2 time pro-bowl tackle. After the season we find out he played carrying an injured knee cap. He was roundly ridiculed by posters on this board. At the time, had you known Matt Light had this issue, do your Light performance expectations stay the same or do they change?