PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

Questioning Dante's greatness

Status
Not open for further replies.

shakadave

In the Starting Line-Up
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
2,430
Reaction score
44
I'm starting to question the oft-heard party line that Dante S. always does an excellent job with the O-line. I think we need to say he always does an excellent job with O-line pass protection. We have had only one great year (2004) running the ball since Craig James in 1985, for goodness' sake! Curtis Martin definitely had good years. That rookie who blew out his knee at the Pro Bowl volleyball game showed spark for one year. But year in year out, our default mode is "unable to run the ball well." I'll bet we're in the bottom 5 in the NFL for average yards per carry in the years Dante has been in New England. Not blaming him, just questioning his assumed genius.
 
Yeah...I see your point...that was a real lousy year Dillon put up in 2004
 
Actually, you could also argue that we aren't great in pass protection either. Brady is a genius for not getting sacked because he plays smart, moves in the pocket well, and throws the ball away when he needs to instead of holding on and trying to force it. But he will take a hit in order to make a play. And he gets hit...a lot. To a large extent, Brady's innate talent makes the offensiveline look better statistically than it actually is.

On the flip side, Dante didn't have much to work with last year given the injuries. So maybe expectations should be low.
 
Dillon's 2004 stats

345 carries 1635 yards 4.7 ypc 12 tds

"Scar is HORRIBLE!!! We gotta DO something about this!!!!Look at THAT!!! Almost 5 yards a carry...he's a BUM for a coach!!!!"

Idiot
 
I think you are way off base Shaka. Dante does a fine job with whatever he has to work with. Let's not forget all the injuries he has continually overcome. In addition his lines do very well in both pass protection and in the running game when you consider he is constantly teaching lower round draft choices and free agents.
When he is given a quality back, they do quite well - Robert Edwards (before he got hurt) was super and Antwain Smith was effective enough to help bring us two Superbowls and always gain that tough yard when needed. When he was given a top back, as you indicated, 2004 was his best year of all. Dante was also there for the Curtis Martin years - not too shabby of a coaching job there.

Dante has put together an awesome line that has a great screen play capabilities. He is able to keep Brady from getting killed by teaching just the right technique whether it was the dink and dunk early Brady years or the slide and move downfield pass playsof the past two years.

In short, whatever is needed, Dante can be counted on coming through, no matter what the hand is that he is dealt. We are lucky to have this guy......
 
Wow, I guess BB is really a genius, to be able to win not only 1, but 3 SB's with a crappy OL coach.

And really, Dante should really do better since he's had all those 1st & 2nd round picks on the line.

Sarcasm intended.
 
shakadave said:
I'm starting to question the oft-heard party line that Dante S. always does an excellent job with the O-line. I think we need to say he always does an excellent job with O-line pass protection. We have had only one great year (2004) running the ball since Craig James in 1985, for goodness' sake! Curtis Martin definitely had good years. That rookie who blew out his knee at the Pro Bowl volleyball game showed spark for one year. But year in year out, our default mode is "unable to run the ball well." I'll bet we're in the bottom 5 in the NFL for average yards per carry in the years Dante has been in New England. Not blaming him, just questioning his assumed genius.

First off, Dante has not been OL coach the whole time that he's been in NE. He has coached every position on the team at one time or another.

Secondly, he has done an outstanding job coaching up a bunch of low round draft picks and UDFA's.

Who has called him a genius? He's a good solid coach and any Patriots fan should appreciate his contribution. I'll take BB word over yours any day.

It would really help things out if you had a clue of what you are talking about before you post things like this.
 

  • 2001 New England Patriots 16 15 287 1157 4.0 44 12 7 58
    2002 New England Patriots 16 15 252 982 3.9 42 6 3 56

Poor Antowain Smith....that damn Scar really screwed HIM up.....2100 yards + in two seasons...I say we sue Scar for screwing Antowain's career up
 
Last edited:
Joker said:
Dillon's 2004 stats

345 carries 1635 yards 4.7 ypc 12 tds

"Scar is HORRIBLE!!! We gotta DO something about this!!!!Look at THAT!!! Almost 5 yards a carry...he's a BUM for a coach!!!!"

Idiot

Dear Joker,

a) Please learn to read. My post calls 2004 a "great" year, and you have made two separate replies to "contradict" me by citing 2004 as a great year.

b) If you're happy with 2100 yards every two years out of your top back, to each his own. (Dillon would have needed like 450 yards this year.) A 3.95 average for 2001-2002 was adequate to let Brady and the defense do some great things (especially in 2001 obviously) but I'm looking for better. Not that Smith was a star either.

c) If I were like you, I would end this thread this way: "Idiot." Fortunately, I'm not.
 
texpat said:
Wow, I guess BB is really a genius, to be able to win not only 1, but 3 SB's with a crappy OL coach.

And really, Dante should really do better since he's had all those 1st & 2nd round picks on the line.

Sarcasm intended.

Where did my original post call him crappy again?
 
Some good points here. How long has he been working with our O-line, anyway? I'm just getting cranky about having so many years where running was not our strong suit. Again, I do appreciate Dante's work, and hopefully there are even better days ahead with now a 1st, 2nd, 3rd rounder (or two?) on the line. Injuries were obviously a bummer this year. Don't think the personal attack was necessary here, 'Nut.
PATSNUTme said:
First off, Dante has not been OL coach the whole time that he's been in NE. He has coached every position on the team at one time or another.

Secondly, he has done an outstanding job coaching up a bunch of low round draft picks and UDFA's.

Who has called him a genius? He's a good solid coach and any Patriots fan should appreciate his contribution. I'll take BB word over yours any day.

It would really help things out if you had a clue of what you are talking about before you post things like this.
 
Maybe some year the team will decide that "running is our strong suit". Until then I guess you'll be cranky. This is a primarily passing team, set up and balanced by the run. We don't believe in fullbacks. We emphasize pass-rushing in the choosing of offensive linemen. And finally, we spend less on the OL than almost any other team. Finally, we often need to use one of our TE's to help the mediocre do its job against top defenses.

Given what Dante has to work with, the OL has been been a terrific one, great VALUE. Dante has made UDFA's, minor free agents and a couple of draft choices from other teams into Super Bowl lines.

Last year it seems we starting moving toward change. We extended Light, and we signed Mankins and Kaczur as a start of a possible future top OL. Stay tuned, we'll see whether we continue along that path.
 
shakadave said:
Some good points here. How long has he been working with our O-line, anyway? I'm just getting cranky about having so many years where running was not our strong suit. Again, I do appreciate Dante's work, and hopefully there are even better days ahead with now a 1st, 2nd, 3rd rounder (or two?) on the line. Injuries were obviously a bummer this year. Don't think the personal attack was necessary here, 'Nut.

No personal attack. I'm one who really appreciates the job that he has done for this team over the years. He has been through many HC and they all decided to keep him. Very unusual in the NFL. That speaks volumes.

You seem to think that he was the OL coach trough out his tenure with the Patriots and therefore blaming him for the years when we didn't have a running game.

That's what I meant when I said you should have a clue.
 
Last edited:
mgteich said:
Maybe some year the team will decide that "running is our strong suit". Until then I guess you'll be cranky. This is a primarily passing team, set up and balanced by the run. We don't believe in fullbacks. We emphasize pass-rushing in the choosing of offensive linemen. And finally, we spend less on the OL than almost any other team. Finally, we often need to use one of our TE's to help the mediocre do its job against top defenses.

Given what Dante has to work with, the OL has been been a terrific one, great VALUE. Dante has made UDFA's, minor free agents and a couple of draft choices from other teams into Super Bowl lines.

Last year it seems we starting moving toward change. We extended Light, and we signed Mankins and Kaczur as a start of a possible future top OL. Stay tuned, we'll see whether we continue along that path.
Shaka asks a legitimate question and mg has an excellent answer. If folks are done with knee jerk reactions and ready to look at the central point of Shaka's post, the question becomes wither the offensive line? As mg notes, Light's re-signing and the 2005 draft are indicators that BB is looking to give Dante better tools with which to craft his O-line. That leads us back to 2006 FA and Draft, and the 2007 look-ahead:
- before re-signing/signing anyone we have a gap showing in the interior at C and G. BB has gotten his Gs and back-up centers off FA with one G drafted for the 5th round in 2000 and a back-up C drafted in 2003. For Scar to make that mix into a line that has been so solid in the playoffs (and I include this year's run, most of the sacks/hits Tommy took against Jacksonville came from his holding the ball too long and trying to do too much - McDaniels better grow a big, gruff pair this year and keep Tommy on a tighter leash to prevent him trying to carry the team again, that's a recipe for disaster. I can't say for certain with Denver since I haven't rewatched it yet, but we know which offense actually moved the ball against the other's elite defense.) is a major accomplishment that does border on genius - a genius for teaching and drilling lesser talents into an effective unit.
- does BB draft for G and C this year?
- does BB pick up another OT who is versitile enough to play G or C?
- does BB send Pioli to pick through the FA/UDFA bin for some more low cost replacements?

With four picks in the first day and two picks in the 4th, BB has the tools for a strong draft. BB drafted OTs 2nd & 4th rounds in 2000-2001 when he was first building his team. Mankins was as close to a 2nd as you can get without being there, and Kaczur was essentially a 4th round pick as a supplemental. Will history repeat? There is a lot of good mid-round OT talent in this draft, the kind of player Dante can turn into a Kaczur gold mine - first round talent for chump change. If we take an OT in the 2nd-4th rounds again (or someone like Ryan Cook (NM) who is a C with the ability to play RT and maybe Swing Tackle with Dante's magic) then mg's O-line rebuilding prophecy is coming true.

Pioli will be bringing a number of castoffs in for Dante to pick through, but I suspect mg has hit the nail squarely, and BB will be drafting one or two players as stronger supplements for Dante's tool kit. I join those who'd love to be a fly on the wall as the personnel staff prepares the draft board.

A good question Shaka, as far as working with the O-line, Dante is a genius the way BB is a genius in organizing a team - their not absent-minded Einsteins, just guys who rise to that level in their chosen trade. I'll give you a pass for forgetting Dante's prior coaching assignments before the O-line...
 
shakadave said:
I'm starting to question the oft-heard party line that Dante S. always does an excellent job with the O-line. I think we need to say he always does an excellent job with O-line pass protection. We have had only one great year (2004) running the ball since Craig James in 1985, for goodness' sake! Curtis Martin definitely had good years. That rookie who blew out his knee at the Pro Bowl volleyball game showed spark for one year. But year in year out, our default mode is "unable to run the ball well." I'll bet we're in the bottom 5 in the NFL for average yards per carry in the years Dante has been in New England. Not blaming him, just questioning his assumed genius.

Shaka - There are a few flaws in your thinking. The first is the idea that Dante has always been the O-line coach. He hasn't. He's been all over the place. Special Teams especially. So, for you to go back and say that he Pats have only had 1 great year running the ball since Craig James and some how imply that Dante has been the O-ine coach the entire time shows you haven't done enough home work on the subject.

Now, I do agree that the Pats haven't been especially great at running the ball since 2000. They have had, though, 2 1000 yard seasons. Those were in 2001 and 2004. In 2000, the Pats didn't have a good O-line or a good RB. In 2002, Smith just missed the 1000 yard mark by 18 yards. In 2003, the Pats had a bunch of injuries to deal with. Compton going down. Then Woody. Etc. And in 2005, there were major injuries as well.

Dante is credited with doing an amazing job with players who weren't considered to be "TOP NOTCH" talent beyond Matt Light and Damian Woody. I mean, Neal, Ashworth and Andruzzi were undrafted free agents. And Hochstein is a 6th round pick or something like that. And Koppen was a 5th rounder. Koppen was viewed as a potential Pro-Bowler by the end of his rookie year.
 
DaBruinz said:
Shaka - There are a few flaws in your thinking. The first is the idea that Dante has always been the O-line coach. He hasn't. He's been all over the place. Special Teams especially. So, for you to go back and say that he Pats have only had 1 great year running the ball since Craig James and some how imply that Dante has been the O-ine coach the entire time shows you haven't done enough home work on the subject.

Now, I do agree that the Pats haven't been especially great at running the ball since 2000. They have had, though, 2 1000 yard seasons. Those were in 2001 and 2004. In 2000, the Pats didn't have a good O-line or a good RB. In 2002, Smith just missed the 1000 yard mark by 18 yards. In 2003, the Pats had a bunch of injuries to deal with. Compton going down. Then Woody. Etc. And in 2005, there were major injuries as well.

Dante is credited with doing an amazing job with players who weren't considered to be "TOP NOTCH" talent beyond Matt Light and Damian Woody. I mean, Neal, Ashworth and Andruzzi were undrafted free agents. And Hochstein is a 6th round pick or something like that. And Koppen was a 5th rounder. Koppen was viewed as a potential Pro-Bowler by the end of his rookie year.

More good points. I didn't mean to imply he's coached the O-line since Craig James --- that's just how many years I've been frustrated with our running game, but I didn't say so clearly at all. I know Dante hasn't always been at O-line. And Box you give me too much credit to even assume I EVER knew his exact coaching history! I still don't know which year he started at O-line; does anyone out there know?

Bruinz, I think 1000 yards is not a good measure of running success. That number stopped having meaning for me when the season went from 14 to 16 games. 1000 in 14 is pretty decent, but 1000 in 16 is 63 per game --- not enough to turn a season from bad to good. And yes, Dante is "credited with doing an amazing job" with lesser talent, and I'm just questioning whether we've really RUN the ball amazingly well in his tenure, even considering the talent he was stuck with and the injuries too. Maybe we have, but other than 2004 I've been a tough audience to amaze. No doubt he's a good coach. I'll probably always think he's better with pass protection than with running.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Key Questions Remain After Patriots Mini Camp: Little Margin For Error at Several Positions
Patriots News 06-14, Patriots Wrap Up Spring Workouts
Patriots Rookie Lomu Reveals “Weird” First Days at Right Tackle
Vrabel’s Goal For Christian Barmore in 2026: “Being able to finish”
MORSE: Day 3 of Patriots Mini-Camp
TRANSCRIPT: Mike Vrabel Press Conference 6/11
MORSE: Day 2 of Patriots Mini-Camp
TRANSCRIPT: Caleb Lomu Media Interview 6/10
TRANSCRIPT: Ashton Grant Press Conference 6/10
TRANSCRIPT: Drake Maye Press Conference 6/10
Back
Top