Question for Patriots Fans - Please Help me Understand

[Jafo]

for me, its this whole spygate thing. our team was dragged through the mud, and kicked while down, all for nothing. its so frustrating. im not sure i believe that the refs are against us, although i believe that the refs are for the colts.

WAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
FEAR THE HORSESHOE.

 

[Jafo]

Well, I think that a lot of the complaints about the officiating come out of the Colts game this year. Did watch that one? 141 penalty yards for the Pats vs. 25 for the Colts.

Lately, the officiating has been pretty good (esp. in the Steelers game where the refs let the boys play some football).

There are some wacky conspiracy theorists that like to post here but don't let them skew your view. We New Englanders like to complain about stuff and it's hard to complain about a team that's 14-0.

WAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!
FEAR THE HORSESHOE.

 

[Jafo]

ffan85, look at the huge discrepency in penalty calls and yardage for the Pats versus the Colts.

It is... really hard to say with a straight face that it's purely coincidence.

WWWAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!
FEAR THE HORSESHOE.

 

[upstater1]

It's easy... when the arm stops moving forward and is OBVIOUSLY traveling back toward the players chest. The throwing motion is over the moment your arm stops moving forward... what's so hard about that? But once again, they made the right call... the rule needs to be changed. When it's as obvious at Brady's fumble was the NFL should never let that happen... clearly he lost possession of the ball and had no intention of throwing it. Undebatable if you watch the replays. Absolutely undebatable.

The only catch. It never started moving back toward Brady's catch. I agree Brady didn't intend to throw it. But the ball was knocked out of his hands at the tail end of the fake pump throwing motion.

 

[upstater1]

I'm not the one who brought it up in the first place, and this isn't about your playoff game anymore... I'm talking purely about the rule and it's place. It's very easy to correct this rule... heres how...

When a QB starts his throwing motion if he loses the ball at any point before the ball starts moving forward it's a fumble. That rule has been in place forever and is easy to judge, how would this change be any different than that? What I'm suggesting is no different, just opposite... when the arm is coming forward it's not a fumble, but as soon as it stops going forward and start going backwards it should then be a fumble. This rule is a double standard.

Bottom line is if they can determine when the arm starts going forward(beginning of the throwing motion) they can determine when the arm starts going backward(end of the throwing motion).

I think that's very easy to implement and it will should be changed.

You've just described the tuck rule as it's currently legislated. The ball can be fumbled not only when it's tucked, but also when it starts to move backward (i.e. when the QB is re****ing it).

The one hitch that everyone complains about is that if the player is moving it down and back (i.e. in the process of tucking it) then it's not a fumble. That's the point of controversy. But if the throwing motion ends, and the ball starts moving back up even a little bit, then it can be fumbled.

The refs simply don't want the responsibility of determining when the throwing motion ends in the arc from the top of the throw until it's tucked into the body. Imagine a half circle that begins at the QBs ear, extends out directly, and ends at the waistline. At what point can you determine that the throwing motion is over.

Again, if the ball changes direction and is moved back, the QB can fumble it even if it's not tucked into the body.

 

[upstater1]

Thread has gone 2 ways (or more? no time to read all 14 pages..): ref calls & tuck rule.

Tuck rule - dumb rule & (gulp! agreeing with a Stiller?) should be changed that when the forward motion starts anything afterward will become a fumble.

Go PATS!

Did you mean when the forward motion "stops?" If so, that's part of the tuck rule already.

 

[SavioKid]

No, i mean a drastic change to the rule in that any forward motion start of the pass resulting in a dropped / arm blocked / stripped / slipped ball dropping backwards or down or sideways or even forward is a fumble. Unless that ball reaches (in the air of course) the line-of-scrimmage or intended receiver who must be at ahead of the passer.
In other words, eliminate the principle that a throwing motion is 'off limits' to any fumbling. The small aspects to look for by a ref have too much error involved or even interpretation. Makes it more interesting with more fumbles!

 

[upstater1]

No, i mean a drastic change to the rule in that any forward motion start of the pass resulting in a dropped / arm blocked / stripped / slipped ball dropping backwards or down or sideways or even forward is a fumble. Unless that ball reaches (in the air of course) the line-of-scrimmage or intended receiver who must be at ahead of the passer.
In other words, eliminate the principle that a throwing motion is 'off limits' to any fumbling. The small aspects to look for by a ref have too much error involved or even interpretation. Makes it more interesting with more fumbles!

Wow, that would be a radical change, and it would hurt the Patriots that throw a lot of screen plays and also make quick outs to the side. Think of all the times Brady drills the ball at Faulk's feet when under pressure. This would cause mayhem for the Patriots.

The only real solution, as I ca see, is that the refs be allowed to exercise their judgement in any way they see fit. It's only a game, after all. This could be a part of the game which can't be legislated.

Kind of like the infield fly rule in baseball. You have a great sport with many logical rules that make sense, and then suddenly you come to a weird event and no one can figure out what to do, so they concoct a weird rule to take care of the funny business.

 

[Joker]

so called "objective" Minny fan logs on and starts in on the "tuck rule" controversy trying to make this bridge to" if they called it like the rest of the country knew it should be called and like we called it out here, then Brady doesn't stay the starter and YOU NEVER WIN AGAIN". First off, nice try, Dallas fan....you idiot....you state"..let me show you what we think out here" and drop a link to a HOUSTON SPORTSPAGE!!! Yeah, tons of Viking coverage out there in Houston.

No...HERE is why YOU showed up....you are hurt, embarrassed and enraged at the performance of Romo...you were so sure before Sunday that Big D was "BACK!!!" and you could shoot your arrogant, bohump ,"America's Team!!!" mouth off again but NOW, with a pathetic 6 point performance and TWO losses, one a bludgeoning by the Pats at home, (the pain of which you've obviously stuffed way down deep), you've decided to LASH OUT, displaying that peculiar psychological phenomenon called "transference".

You have no idea how idiotic and clueless your posts today have been. The "tuck rule"??? Yeah, the last resort of the crushed and shattered typical big mouth frontrunning Dallas fan, when his goo gee gaa gaa baby girl dreams of glory come crashing down on his pointed little head.

"Hi, I'm new here...I'm the objective Minny fan who uses Texas newspapers to prove the six year old "tuck rule" game proves New England is lucky because Brady would have never become the starting QB."

Get your blue blankie, stick your thumb in your mouth and have Mommy tuck you in your rodeo crib.

 

[Ice Cold Bruschi]

I think we get the second highest amount of advantageous calls the 1st of course being the Colts

 

[upstater1]

I think we get the second highest amount of advantageous calls the 1st of course being the Colts

Is that true? I know I was throwing things during the Denver playoff game a few years ago.

Not to mention the Ravens game a week back.

 

[ClevTrev]

I think I'll go back to lurking and reading. That way I can pay attention to the fans here with some objectivity and ignore the people who are just pure homers.

Heh, heh, heh, heh, heh . . . . . . FootballFan85, man that was a great performance. Gotta hand it to you, that was the most clever vanity thread I've seen in a long time. You had all the fish from this board swimming up stream, feeding them the bait, and hooking them so painlessly, they had no idea they were caught. Clever, clever clever, and you knew just what to say and how to say it to keep them thinking you were the "objective, open-minded fan from another team."

Not sure I buy the Vikings story, as it sounds more like an infatuated Raiders or other rival opponent's fan who's spent way too much time studying the Patriots to understand how they could have stolen that playoff game against Oakland. But nice work! It takes some smarts to carry on for that many posts, nail them with insults so subtle they don't know where you stand, and still be able to deal the unadulterated BS to keep your audience coming back for more.

I'm impressed.

 

[PYPER]

I haven't read all the replies yet but here's my take.

I think the general feeling is that the officials have become biased b/c of all the negativity surrounding this team in the press. The media has done quite a job on us and none of their allegations, assumptions, and/or hate has been challenged or checked by any other source.

If you're an official, it's all but impossible to not be influenced by all the Patriots negativity that dominates the airwaves. It's literally everywhere.

When you take that impression and combine it with watching the games in which numerous phantom calls are made against the Patriots, it's easy to understand why Patriots fans feel the way they do.

Are there bad calls that go against every team? Certainly (well, maybe not the Colts, they seem to benefit in every game they play).

There's also the perception that the officials played large roles in our last two postseason losses. These are legitimate concerns, the league office even sent a letter apologizing for a key blown call in the AFCC Game last season.

The bottom line is that we know that our best chances of winning are by not allowing any call to effect the outcome of the game. That means we need to bring our A game and blow people out and not let up until the game is over.

If we allow the game to be close enough for the officials to screw us then thats our problem. We know better.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Do you not understand though that EVERY team has fans who believe the refs are "for" their rivals?To say the refs are FOR any team is insane! Different refs do the games each week. Is the entire reffing staff of the NFL Colts fans? Just because theyre a rival who give you guys trouble doesnt make the refs in their pocket.I think I'll start saying the refs are for whatever team Minnesota ends up playing if we hit the playoffs.

Basically bud, we're no different than your fellow Viking fans or any other fan base. What you don't & can't understand is the level of attacks we've faced ever since the farce called spygate happened.If you came here last year or any other year, you would see us acting like any other fans.

You started off your thread with the passive, "please help me understand" which you used as a set-up to launch your not so passive insults like "insane", "ignorant" and "whiners". That in itself was ignorant of you...hopefully you can see that.

When you say you want people to help you, you don't insult them by calling them these names. We'll be waiting for your sincere apology.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Heh, heh, heh, heh, heh . . . . . . FootballFan85, man that was a great performance. Gotta hand it to you, that was the most clever vanity thread I've seen in a long time. You had all the fish from this board swimming up stream, feeding them the bait, and hooking them so painlessly, they had no idea they were caught. Clever, clever clever, and you knew just what to say and how to say it to keep them thinking you were the "objective, open-minded fan from another team."

Not sure I buy the Vikings story, as it sounds more like an infatuated Raiders or other rival opponent's fan who's spent way too much time studying the Patriots to understand how they could have stolen that playoff game against Oakland. But nice work! It takes some smarts to carry on for that many posts, nail them with insults so subtle they don't know where you stand, and still be able to deal the unadulterated BS to keep your audience coming back for more.

I'm impressed.

Personally, I saw from his first post that the author was an arrogant pr**k. Unlike you, I give him no credit for being smart.

 

[since67]

Ive been reading this board all season (amazing board by the way, probably one of the most active I've ever seen)

Im not a Pats fan, Im a Minnesota fan, and I just dont understand some of the behaviour around here.

I constantly read posts by Pats fans who seem to honestly believe that the NFL and the game officials are actually out to get them! These people aren't kidding, theyre sincere, and its a fairly common view.

I mean honestly? Every team gets bad calls against them and every team gets bad calls in their favour. Its human nature to only remember the bad ones that go against you, just like in poker where you only remember all the times you got beat by some random fluke but never remember when a miracle card falls in your favour.

How is it that any fan in any city, especially one whose team is UNDEFEATED can actually be so ignorant as to think the league and its officials hold a vendetta against them?

I consistantly see how much you guys love to call fans in other cities "whiners". "The Colts are the biggest whiners", "The Steelers are the biggest whiners", etc, yes so many of you sit here and complain about how bad the NFL treats you, how biased the refs are, etc.

Can someone please explain to me how any serious sports fan with a drop of a clue can actually think their team is being targeted by league officials and refs? Id love to understand.

Do you actually believe the refs are out to get you? Do you actually believe the Commissioner is against you? Do you actually believe that GM from the Colts has the power to mold the league to his liking so his team could beat you? Do you actually believe that the NFL intentionally lets other teams off on things and nails the patriots just for kicks?

You guys are on pace for a perfect season and you STILL complain and make conspiracy theories. SHould that not make YOU the biggest whiners? I cant even imagine what this place would sound like if the Pats lost a game.

(oh and dont use "bullcrap Offensive PI on Moss". Its been happening his WHOLE career. Minnesota fans remember it well. The fact of the matter is, he should know by now whats going to happen if he puts his hands on a dback. Its bull**** yes, but its not new)

(oh and sorry to the Pats fans around here who actually write with their brains, I dont mean to group you in with the crazies)

The thing is...unless you're a fan of this team and watch the games from that perspective, you will never truly understand our point of view. This works in reverse as no matter how well I try to educate myself on your outlook, I will never truly understand it as you do.

You also make a LOT of generalizations...this is always a dangerous methodology...you point out things that some fans may have said and conveniently group us all into that mentality before you assault it. I could be as caustic as you and exclaim how THAT is ignorant but I'll give you the mulligan. Now if you are truly asking how any one fan can do this or that (enter whatever scenario you wish)...it's an easy thing to understand. We're all different. The range is enormous. Some fans of every team will be jerks, some will be spectacular.

I don't know about vendettas...that's pretty strong...but there has been questionable officiating in many football games, regular season, playoff, and even SB's (SB XL - Steelers/Seahawks).

Talking about whiners...there are whiners from every team. If there are whiners from every team, how can you decide who the BIGGEST ones are? It's ridiculous, so why even bother to try.

The bit about Moss and PI...what's your point. On any PI call against any team...on their game thread for that particular day, there will probably be posts that cry about it. That's the way it works. Nothing fancy. Nothing new.

I find it strange that a fan of another team comes here to complain about what 'some' of the fans here may be posting but welcome anyways.

 

[RayClay]

Heh, heh, heh, heh, heh . . . . . . FootballFan85, man that was a great performance. Gotta hand it to you, that was the most clever vanity thread I've seen in a long time. You had all the fish from this board swimming up stream, feeding them the bait, and hooking them so painlessly, they had no idea they were caught. Clever, clever clever, and you knew just what to say and how to say it to keep them thinking you were the "objective, open-minded fan from another team."

Not sure I buy the Vikings story, as it sounds more like an infatuated Raiders or other rival opponent's fan who's spent way too much time studying the Patriots to understand how they could have stolen that playoff game against Oakland. But nice work! It takes some smarts to carry on for that many posts, nail them with insults so subtle they don't know where you stand, and still be able to deal the unadulterated BS to keep your audience coming back for more.



I'm impressed.

you read my mind. All this pretense just to whine abot the tuck again.

 

[Patti37]

Ok but would you agree or disagree that the rule changes made the game more exciting?
Its just like in hockey where rule changes were made to give skill players more chance to use their talent. Sure if you were a fan of a team with a bunch of goons whod won by clutching and grabbing you might be pissed (NOT saying thats what the pats were) but the reality is its good for the game.

Im sure New Englands own Randy Moss approves of the changes Polian initiated, and Im sure Tom Brady does too now that the two are on pace to set records.

I don't necessarily believe the rule changes make the game more exciting. I enjoy watching a hard fought defensive battle. It is difficult enough covering a talented receiver. Why make it more difficult?

 

[NovaScotiaPatsFan]

Ok but would you agree or disagree that the rule changes made the game more exciting?
Its just like in hockey where rule changes were made to give skill players more chance to use their talent. Sure if you were a fan of a team with a bunch of goons whod won by clutching and grabbing you might be pissed (NOT saying thats what the pats were) but the reality is its good for the game.

Im sure New Englands own Randy Moss approves of the changes Polian initiated, and Im sure Tom Brady does too now that the two are on pace to set records.

See, the difference between hockey (Wild blow BTW) and football is that the whole league got together and changed the rules in Hockey, like it was the Board of Governers, the players, and the league itself that all got together and ironed it out.

The competition committee for the NFL only has members from a few teams. From what I can find (and if anyone has up to date information please post it) the members are:

Matt Millen (Lions)
Rich McKay (Falcons)
Jeff Fisher (Titans)
Marvin Lewis (Bengals)
John Mara (Giants)
Ozzie Newsome (Ravens)
Bill Polian (Colts)
Mark Richardson (Panthers)

Source (Albeit old): http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2539393

The bigger question here is why isn't every team in the NFL represented on this committee?

Imagine if you will if the GM of your biggest rival team (I guess it would be the Packers?) was on the CC and whined and complained so much about everything that you guys did that the freakin rules ended up being changed because of it. You'd have good reason to believe that the league, or at least certain elements of it, were out to get you.

 

[checkedout]

I
Do you actually believe the refs are out to get you? Do you actually believe the Commissioner is against you? Do you actually believe that GM from the Colts has the power to mold the league to his liking so his team could beat you? Do you actually believe that the NFL intentionally lets other teams off on things and nails the patriots just for kicks?

YES I do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!