Question for Patriots Fans - Please Help me Understand

[upstater1]

The NE cameraman was on the Pats sideline, which is why he was able to film the Jets sideline.

You have the rule way wrong, and you apparently didn't follow the story too closely; it has everything to do with the filming area not being enclosed and being accessible to staff during the game.

+1 + 10 chars

 

[upstater1]

Which is why I appologized for bringing it up.

While I dont agree it was the correct call as the rule is written, I brought it up more as a demonstration that what one team considers "the refs out to get them" another team considers "the right call".

When you guys see a player make contact with Randy Moss 6 yards past scrimage, you say "thats a violation, we just got screwed", while the other team sees it as something so insignifiant as to not matter. Its insignifianct but its a rule.

Likewise, when Randy Moss puts his hand on a corner and gives a little love nudge, you guys see it as insignifianct, which it is, BUT its still against the rules. The refs call it, you guys go nuts, the refs dont call it, the other team goes nuts.

It goes both ways and every team around the league has fans that feel THEY are the ones getting screwed.

Thats been my point the whole thread.

It's not a matter of it being insiginificant or not. I just showed you a YouTobe video in which Moss is getting grabbed and clawed at. He then puts out his hands to push the arms grabbing him away. And people have he audacity to call that OPI!! If anything, it's DPI. I showed you the video.

 

[upstater1]

Um no. From everything in the media (at least in this part of the country), the cameraman was on Manginis sideline.

No. Wrong. You didn't follow this story very closely.

 

[upstater1]

Boston.com might be a bit biased

But ESPN is not. Strange ESPNs story contradicts FOX Sports story.

Now Im not so sure.

Does anyone know what he looks like?
Most of the pictures seem to indicate this:
http://images.sportsbybrooks.com/7/f/7f87f2146c0b403c3af0eaf11161c92c_belichickcameraman.jpg

In which case hes on the Jets sidelines, but again, Ive never seen the guy so who knows if thats him.

It's funny you should point to that picture. That's a Jets employee on the sideline filming across the field during the same game.

What do you think of that?

 

[FootballFan85]

Youre a little late UpStart.

1) I provided a link from FoxSports saying the guy was on the jets sidelines. I followed the story. Im not so sure now because the ESPN article says the opposite.

2) I already pointed out that if that wasnt the guy, then it must be a Jets employee filming the Pats. I then edited my post as to not take this thread FURTHER off track. You can still see it in the quote from Fixit though. Nice try at being on the ball though.

3) Im a MINNESOTA fan. I watched Randy Moss catch bombs a LOT longer than you have. Ive seen it ALL. Thanks for posting a YouTube video though, I had no idea how Moss got treated until I saw that!

I think I'll go back to lurking and reading. That way I can pay attention to the fans here with some objectivity and ignore the people who are just pure homers.

 

[Mayday Malone]

Personally I think the OP is making great points, and is acknowledging our explanations about how our team is being viewed. I give props to the OP, for not having troll like posts. It's hard as a Pats fan to convince others to see how we feel about issues regarding the Pats. I'm sure it'd be hard for a Vikings fan see his board attacked with constant cruise ship references. I hope we are answering all of your questions, 85, because you are certainly looking for answers without being everybody's "Old Uncle Harold."

 

[upstater1]

Youre a little late UpStart.

1) I provided a link from FoxSports saying the guy was on the jets sidelines. I followed the story. Im not so sure now because the ESPN article says the opposite.

2) I already pointed out that if that wasnt the guy, then it must be a Jets employee filming the Pats. I then edited my post as to not take this thread FURTHER off track. You can still see it in the quote from Fixit though. Nice try at being on the ball though.

3) Im a MINNESOTA fan. I watched Randy Moss catch bombs a LOT longer than you have. Ive seen it ALL. Thanks for posting a YouTube video though, I had no idea how Moss got treated until I saw that!

I think I'll go back to lurking and reading. That way I can pay attention to the fans here with some objectivity and ignore the people who are just pure homers.

1. How can you say you followed the story and you don't even know the rule or the fact that the guy was on the New England sideline? The rule, as it's been pointed out to you many times, states your camera has to be in an enclosed space.

3. If you watched Moss a lot longer, you'd think you'd be able to tell the difference between OPI and PI. You wrote that Patriots' fans are whining because Randy is getting called for OPI when he's pushing off (even though it seems insignificant). That's not the case at all. As the video showed you (and if you watched it you'd know exactly what I mean) the defender grabbed Moss, not the opposite way around.

Seriously, where do you get off accusing Patriots fans of being homers and unobjective when you don't even know the basics of Spygate, the Tuck rule, etc?

 

[TruthSeeker]

And finally, and I hate to bring this up but its something that really needs to be said. Can a team that benefited from the "tuck rule", something recognized leaguewide (except perhaps in NE) as a mistake...

Stupid, stupid thing to say. Up until there, your posts were pretty reasonable. But to believe that the refs got the tuck rule wrong when it's been explained thousands of time how they got it right (perhaps your head is stuck in the sand) by numerous, independent sources just shows that you're not willing to face the facts.

At any rate, all teams have lots of fans that believe that there is a conspiracy against them. I'm not one of them, but they are there. Just like lots of people refused to believe that Elvis was dead. And lots of people believe [name your favorite political/celebrity/sports happening] was actually a conspiracy. That's the way people are - particularly my brother. I just ignore them; I suggest you do the same.

And oh ya - learn the tuck rule.

 

[TIMEsteelersfan]

Ahh the "Tuck Rule"...

Here's the real deal on that... it was the correct call based on the rule, however, it's the dumbest rule ever. Anyone with two brain cells can see Brady wasn't going to throw it, but was pulling it back into his body. He gets hit and loses control of the ball(an obvious fumble) only to be saved by a technicality... but again, the right call based on the rule, nothing to debate there.

 

[Hardboiled]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/mcclain/5377850.html

"Still, the Jets turned in the Patriots in the season opener for videotaping signals from the visiting bench area"

I havent seen any leaked footage, Im just telling you what was in the media around here, and that was that the taping was done from the Jets side.

Ugh. The Patriots were the visiting team. "videotaping signals from the visiting bench area." Now I'm waiting for you to tell us there was a memo right before the season.

FF85, you shouldn't try to be smug with people who call you on misinformation after you've corrected it. Don't feel proud of yourself that you corrected a post made in December about an event months ago.

Now Im not so sure.

We know, we know.

 

[upstater1]

Ahh the "Tuck Rule"...

Here's the real deal on that... it was the correct call based on the rule, however, it's the dumbest rule ever. Anyone with two brain cells can see Brady wasn't going to throw it, but was pulling it back into his body. He gets hit and loses control of the ball(an obvious fumble) only to be saved by a technicality... but again, the right call based on the rule, nothing to debate there.

Listen, most of us don't like the rule. We've been burned by it more than we've been saved by it (albeit during the regular season). But they've put together a committee and couldn't improve the rule. What more needs to be said?

How do you write a rule that determines when the throwing motion ends?

 

[Joker]

an inanimate construct is no more dumb or smart than a rock...but don't let that stop you from bludgeoning the dead horse into a puddle of blood.

as far as FF85 goes...you must have missed the Colts game, where the Patriots were flagged for the most penalties in their ENTIRE HISTORY..by the end of the THIRD QUARTER! Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it...instead of that Minny skunkweed you've been smoking. Or is that J-E-T-S fuel I smell coming from your posts?

 

[TIMEsteelersfan]

Listen, most of us don't like the rule. We've been burned by it more than we've been saved by it (albeit during the regular season). But they've put together a committee and couldn't improve the rule. What more needs to be said?

How do you write a rule that determines when the throwing motion ends?

It's easy... when the arm stops moving forward and is OBVIOUSLY traveling back toward the players chest. The throwing motion is over the moment your arm stops moving forward... what's so hard about that? But once again, they made the right call... the rule needs to be changed. When it's as obvious at Brady's fumble was the NFL should never let that happen... clearly he lost possession of the ball and had no intention of throwing it. Undebatable if you watch the replays. Absolutely undebatable.

 

[Joker]

which is completely false since EVEN you are debating it FIVE YEARS LATER.

Obsess much?

 

[Hardboiled]

It's easy... when the arm stops moving forward and is OBVIOUSLY traveling back toward the players chest. The throwing motion is over the moment your arm stops moving forward... what's so hard about that? But once again, they made the right call... the rule needs to be changed. When it's as obvious at Brady's fumble was the NFL should never let that happen... clearly he lost possession of the ball and had no intention of throwing it. Undebatable if you watch the replays. Absolutely undebatable.

Change your view of a fumble. Debatable, undebatable - it doesn't matter. Intent doesn't matter, why do you keep bringing it up? In your mind intent is important. Fine, but the NFL doesn't want refs to get into intent, so you shouldn't either.

Go to nlf.com to videos - Offical Review 8/29. I'm going to assume you think this was a fumble because Gray wasn't going to throw it?

 

[unoriginal]

It's easy... when the arm stops moving forward and is OBVIOUSLY traveling back toward the players chest. The throwing motion is over the moment your arm stops moving forward... what's so hard about that? But once again, they made the right call... the rule needs to be changed. When it's as obvious at Brady's fumble was the NFL should never let that happen... clearly he lost possession of the ball and had no intention of throwing it. Undebatable if you watch the replays. Absolutely undebatable.

I'm no referee, but the way I've heard the tuck rule justified is that it would be impossible for the referee to make the kind of call you describe consistently.

I will say that if they were playing sandlot football, that play would probably been ruled a fumble by the majority of players.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Ive been reading this board all season (amazing board by the way, probably one of the most active I've ever seen)

Im not a Pats fan, Im a Minnesota fan, and I just dont understand some of the behaviour around here.

I constantly read posts by Pats fans who seem to honestly believe that the NFL and the game officials are actually out to get them! These people aren't kidding, theyre sincere, and its a fairly common view.

I mean honestly? Every team gets bad calls against them and every team gets bad calls in their favour. Its human nature to only remember the bad ones that go against you, just like in poker where you only remember all the times you got beat by some random fluke but never remember when a miracle card falls in your favour.

How is it that any fan in any city, especially one whose team is UNDEFEATED can actually be so ignorant as to think the league and its officials hold a vendetta against them?

Great post ... BTW ... check out the game day thread. Every bad play has someone complaining. It's not good enough to look at the big picture. I mean even being healthy enough to watch or listen to a game is something to treasure. They make posts like Belichick future HOF coach is clueless about something ... like the "Why don't we throw more screens" post.

It's enough to make one go nuts. The coaches, players & refs are all human and even though they are professionals ... they still can make mistakes. Also, could it be ... possibly be that the guy making the good play against us is pretty good also.

I tried to give Mangini some credit this Sunday for being a good secondaries coach and strategist ... one guy RayClay agreed, otherwise the thread fell like a lead balloon.

It's just a minority here actually ... but they clog the board with negativity and it sucks. We never had that here in 2001 - 2004. Then when Ian pumped up the site they came out of the woodwork like termites.

 

[TIMEsteelersfan]

I'm not the one who brought it up in the first place, and this isn't about your playoff game anymore... I'm talking purely about the rule and it's place. It's very easy to correct this rule... heres how...

When a QB starts his throwing motion if he loses the ball at any point before the ball starts moving forward it's a fumble. That rule has been in place forever and is easy to judge, how would this change be any different than that? What I'm suggesting is no different, just opposite... when the arm is coming forward it's not a fumble, but as soon as it stops going forward and start going backwards it should then be a fumble. This rule is a double standard.

Bottom line is if they can determine when the arm starts going forward(beginning of the throwing motion) they can determine when the arm starts going backward(end of the throwing motion).

I think that's very easy to implement and it will should be changed.

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

Ahh the "Tuck Rule"...

Here's the real deal on that... it was the correct call based on the rule, however, it's the dumbest rule ever. Anyone with two brain cells can see Brady wasn't going to throw it, but was pulling it back into his body. He gets hit and loses control of the ball(an obvious fumble) only to be saved by a technicality... but again, the right call based on the rule, nothing to debate there.

I agree with you ... dumbest rule ever. I wish they would change it, but until then I wish Raider fans (obviously not talking about you) would just get over it. The call was right per the rule and it was their lousy play for the remainder of the game that caused them to lose.

At lease what Pats fans complained about in the Indy game were obvious poor calls by the officials... like OPI when the receiver didn't do jack diddly.

 

[SavioKid]

Thread has gone 2 ways (or more? no time to read all 14 pages..): ref calls & tuck rule.

Tuck rule - dumb rule & (gulp! agreeing with a Stiller?) should be changed that when the forward motion starts anything afterward will become a fumble.

Ref calls - I agree that the Colts game this year was ridicoulous but like the FFan85 originated: all teams get that 1 time a year & tp generally say refs are out to get us is too homerish. As far as the rules committe or whater it is called that Colts Polian is grand 'pubah' of, that prick does customize it & makes it more difficult against the Pats. I hate that ********! (if anyone deserves a snowball it is that 'pump the loudspeaka crowd noise' motha @#*!) but I'll never complain about the end result since ther are plenty of chances in a game that a team can overcome. The best team always prevails..& that does apply to apply to last years AFC champ game.

Go PATS!