"Please explain how the Pats, Steelers, and Ravens have "more talent" and where"

[Deus Irae]

I saw this on JI, and I thought it would be an interesting way to kill a bit of time. Let's take the Ray Ray Challenge:

Please explain how the Pats, Steelers, and Ravens have "more talent" and where?

The Pata without Brady has average talent, sure they have a couple of studs in Gronk, Hernandez, Wilfork, etc, but where are they more talented elsewhere? Same with the Steelers? The Steelers lost several key players to retirement, they are also old in many places, much like the Ravens? This Jets team has a lot of talent, some of it unproven, or still developing, but this same team is off of two AFCCG's in the last 3 years, if not for an implosion last year, a dysfunctional locker room due to an offensive coaching staff that lost the team, this Jets team are back in the playoffs.

The jets certainly added talent this year in FA, via trade, and through the draft, the talent is there and certainly on par with any of those other teams.

Jets Insider.com Forums - View Single Post - This is the most talented Jets team in 30 years...

For the sake of some brevity and conciseness, let's limit it to projected starters and key 'subs' (i.e. nickel backs).

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Let's take the Ray Ray Challenge

Since I don't post over there once training camp starts unless the Pats are playing the Jets, I will have to take the challenge here:

QB: Brady>Sanchez
WR1: Welker>Holmes
WR2: Lloyd>Hill (at least until proven otherwise)
TE: Gronk>Keller
RB: Greene>Ridley (at least until proven otherwise)
LT: Ferguson>Solder (at least until proven otherwise)
LG: Mankins>Moore
C: Mangold>Connolly
RG: Waters>Slauson
RT: Vollmer>Hunter
(Note: left out TE2/FB because the Pats use a two TE set while the jets use a two RB set)

DT: Wilkerson>Love
NT: Wilfork>Pouha
DE: Ninkovich>Coples (at least until proven otherwise)
OLB: Mayo>Pace
ILB: Harris>Spikes
OLB: Scott>Hightower (at least until proven otherwise)
CB: Revis>>>>McCourty
S: ??Bell vs. Gregory???
S: Landry>Chung (although Chung is more likely to stay on the field)
CB: Cromartie>Dowling (at least until proven otherwise)
Nickel: Arrington>Wilson

Note: The Pats look to be moving to a 4 man front while the Jets are still a 3-4 base. Hard to compare some positions because of it.

Kicker: Gostkowski>Folk
Punter: Mesko>Conley

I put (at least until proven otherwise) next to battles where one of the two are fairly unproven or a rookie.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Let's take the Ray Ray Challenge

Pats:

1. QB
2. RB
3. TE
4. LT
5. LG
6. RG
7. RT
8. Flanker
9. Split End
10. Slot receiver
11. NT
12. Just about every LB
13. LS

And I think that's being generous.

 

[sieglo]

BB & staff > Sexy Rexy & staff.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

Re: Let's take the Ray Ray Challenge

Since I don't post over there once training camp starts unless the Pats are playing the Jets, I will have to take the challenge here:

QB: Brady>Sanchez
WR1: Welker>Holmes
WR2: Lloyd>Hill (at least until proven otherwise)
TE: Gronk>Keller
RB: Greene>Ridley (at least until proven otherwise)
LT: Ferguson>Solder (at least until proven otherwise)
LG: Mankins>Moore
C: Mangold>Connolly
RG: Waters>Slauson
RT: Vollmer>Hunter
(Note: left out TE2/FB because the Pats use a two TE set while the jets use a two RB set)

DT: Wilkerson>Love
NT: Wilfork>Pouha
DE: Ninkovich>Coples (at least until proven otherwise)
OLB: Mayo>Pace
ILB: Harris>Spikes
OLB: Scott>Hightower (at least until proven otherwise)
CB: Revis>>>>McCourty
S: ??Bell vs. Gregory???
S: Landry>Chung (although Chung is more likely to stay on the field)
CB: Cromartie>Dowling (at least until proven otherwise)
Nickel: Arrington>Wilson

Note: The Pats look to be moving to a 4 man front while the Jets are still a 3-4 base. Hard to compare some positions because of it.

Kicker: Gostkowski>Folk
Punter: Mesko>Conley

I put (at least until proven otherwise) next to battles where one of the two are fairly unproven or a rookie.

Good breakdown.

Hightower won't exclusively be an OLB, he will be all over the field. If he is half of how good I think he'll be, he'll be better than Scott. Scott was never all that great and is certainly in decline. I wouldn't put Landry over Chung either.

The Pats clearly have better starting talent overall, but once you start looking at the non-starters, the Pats are far and away a much more talented team.

 

[TyronePoole]

Re: Let's take the Ray Ray Challenge

Since I don't post over there once training camp starts unless the Pats are playing the Jets, I will have to take the challenge here:

QB: Brady>Sanchez
WR1: Welker>Holmes
WR2: Lloyd>Hill (at least until proven otherwise)
TE: Gronk>Keller
RB: Greene>Ridley (at least until proven otherwise)
LT: Ferguson>Solder (at least until proven otherwise)
LG: Mankins>Moore
C: Mangold>Connolly
RG: Waters>Slauson
RT: Vollmer>Hunter
(Note: left out TE2/FB because the Pats use a two TE set while the jets use a two RB set)

DT: Wilkerson>Love
NT: Wilfork>Pouha
DE: Ninkovich>Coples (at least until proven otherwise)
OLB: Mayo>Pace
ILB: Harris>Spikes
OLB: Scott>Hightower (at least until proven otherwise)
CB: Revis>>>>McCourty
S: ??Bell vs. Gregory???
S: Landry>Chung (although Chung is more likely to stay on the field)
CB: Cromartie>Dowling (at least until proven otherwise)
Nickel: Arrington>Wilson

Note: The Pats look to be moving to a 4 man front while the Jets are still a 3-4 base. Hard to compare some positions because of it.

Kicker: Gostkowski>Folk
Punter: Mesko>Conley

I put (at least until proven otherwise) next to battles where one of the two are fairly unproven or a rookie.

Pretty fair but Landry is not better than Chung, Gaffney > any other WR they have and Hernandez is still talent that the Jets don't have whether they have a scrub filling his role or not.

 

[Sicilian]

Re: Let's take the Ray Ray Challenge

I was going to go through each position, but it was getting tedious. I'll sum up:

Pats have the edge in:

QB
WR
TE
LG
RG
RT
DT
K
P

Jets have the edge in:

C
LT - Until Solder proves himself over there
DE (base)
CB

I rank the rest as a push:

RB - Pats have more potential in their group, but they're unproven
LB
S

 

[Haley]

I would just like to point out that as soon as you need your starting CB to play wide receiver as well, you might have a problem.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Let's take the Ray Ray Challenge

Good breakdown.

Hightower won't exclusively be an OLB, he will be all over the field. If he is half of how good I think he'll be, he'll be better than Scott. Scott was never all that great and is certainly in decline. I wouldn't put Landry over Chung either.

The Pats clearly have better starting talent overall, but once you start looking at the non-starters, the Pats are far and away a much more talented team.

A couple of things:

- I am being consistent in that rookies are unknown and I won't rank them ahead of a established veteran until they prove it. Scott is average at best. So Hightower doesn't need to show much to tilt the balance of that comparison in his direction.
- I think when Landry is 100%, he is a stud vs. the run and close to the line. It is a coin flip in my mind although Chung is far more likely to stay on the field. I am trying to be objective and maybe I am being too objective that I don't give the Pats' players enough credit.

 

[Patriot 37]

He starts his arguement "the Pats without Brady". I can't image someone on this board being so stupid to post "the Pats secondary is better than Jets" and then starting the arguement "the Jets secondary without Revis".

Jets Fans are ******ed.

 

[Big-T]

Poor RayRay, he really does need some help.

Well let's see...

Ravens
QB x1, RB x1, WR x2, TE x2, OT x2, DL x3, LB x2, S x2, P x1

Steelers
QB x1, RB x2, WR x3, TE x1, DL x2, LB x3, S x2, K x1

Patriots
QB x2, WR x4, TE x4, OT x1, OG x2, DL x1, LB x2, K x1, P x1

So I make that:
Ravens 16
Steelers 15
Patriots 18
Better players than the Jets

Patriots, Steelers & Ravens also have better coaching staff.

 

[TyronePoole]

here's another one:

Are the Patriots as good as their 13-3 record suggests?
IMO: No. They have Brady, and Brady has great blocking and some good targets (which would not be spectacular on most teams, mind you). If any Pats fan thinks that team is deep, they are delusional. The Jets are deeper in most spots than the Pats, but a great QB can cover up a lot of warts on an NFL team. One injury or one good crack on Brady and that team is in serious danger of not making the playoffs. It isn't a deep team, but a well-coached one with one of the best QBs in the NFL. But if his protection breaks down, so will the entire squad. This isn't the talented defense that the Pats sported throughout the 00's. It is carried by Brady and coached up mediocre talent from Belicheat. Pats fans, seriously take your homer blinders off and ask yourself... what if you took Brady and put him on this Jets squad? Just for a moment. Or the rest of the Jets team in Pats uniforms but with Brady. Yeah, I thought so. You’d be an even more braggart bunch than you usually are. And this is not an attack on Sanchez... we are yet to see him in a non-Schitty offense. Now, we will.)

Basically we're at the point now where other fans just assume that the Pats aren't deep/don't have talent because Brady and BB are so good.

Brady on the Jets squad would be somewhere around the Pats circa 2005-2006.

 

[Sciz]

For starters, the Pats have the better QB and at least 4 receiving options better than anything on the Jets. That alone is huge.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

here's another one:



Basically we're at the point now where other fans just assume that the Pats aren't deep/don't have talent because Brady and BB are so good.

Brady on the Jets squad would be somewhere around the Pats circa 2005-2006.

The Patriots will cut 10 players that will wind up on other team's rosters. The Jets will be looking for ways to pump up the bottom players on their roster, as Rex will be looking to give them confidence, as they are not NFL-caliber players.

This is the truth. Of all the things Jets fans say, the depth issue is the most laughable. The Jets have never had much depth, as they are top heavy in their spending and drafting.

 

[Rob0729]

here's another one:



Basically we're at the point now where other fans just assume that the Pats aren't deep/don't have talent because Brady and BB are so good.

Brady on the Jets squad would be somewhere around the Pats circa 2005-2006.

I'd like to hear where the Jets are deeper at most spots than the Pats. The Jets are woefully thin at most positions. I mean the Pats right now have the problem at WR and d-line of having so many players who can contribute that roster battles are not looking for someone to step up to take the last spot for someone to fail so that it makes it easier to cut him. Cromartie isn't going to play both ways because the Jets are loaded at WR.

The Jets trading away so many draft picks over the years have made their squad painfully thin at a lot of positions especially on offense. Like last year, they are one injury away on the o-line falling apart. They have zero depth at WR and TE. Their safety position isn't very deep especially with Landry being an injury risk.

 

[ivanvamp]

here's another one:



Basically we're at the point now where other fans just assume that the Pats aren't deep/don't have talent because Brady and BB are so good.

Brady on the Jets squad would be somewhere around the Pats circa 2005-2006.

I think if you put Brady on the Jets and Sanchez on the Patriots, the Jets probably win the division. Their defense, though not as good as it once was, is still better than New England's, IMO, at least in terms of yards allowed. They have a really good group of RBs and they have a very good group of receivers. Don't we seriously think that Brady would go crazy with Holmes, Hill, and Keller as his main targets? I do. But YMMV.

But of course the Jets *don't* have Brady, the Patriots do. The Jets have Sanchez and Tebow at QB and they will have to deal with the mess that will present the team.

 

[Sicilian]

I think if you put Brady on the Jets and Sanchez on the Patriots, the Jets probably win the division. Their defense, though not as good as it once was, is still better than New England's, IMO, at least in terms of yards allowed. They have a really good group of RBs and they have a very good group of receivers. Don't we seriously think that Brady would go crazy with Holmes, Hill, and Keller as his main targets? I do. But YMMV.

But of course the Jets *don't* have Brady, the Patriots do. The Jets have Sanchez and Tebow at QB and they will have to deal with the mess that will present the team.

See, this is the wrong argument. It shouldn't be "Put Brady on the Jets and Sanchez on the Pats." It should be "Give both teams Brady" or "Give both teams Sanchez". The idea is that with equality at QB, the rest of the team is either better or worse in overall talent.

In that scenario (both teams having Brady), I see the Pats winning 13-14 and the Jets winning anywhere from 10-12, based mostly on the sheer vastness of weapons at Brady's disposal here.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

jets about to win their 4th SB in a row this year



Oh wait

 

[randomk1]

jets about to win their 4th SB in a row this year



Oh wait

The only question that remains is who will be SB MVP? Tebow or Sanchez

 

[ivanvamp]

See, this is the wrong argument. It shouldn't be "Put Brady on the Jets and Sanchez on the Pats." It should be "Give both teams Brady" or "Give both teams Sanchez". The idea is that with equality at QB, the rest of the team is either better or worse in overall talent.

In that scenario (both teams having Brady), I see the Pats winning 13-14 and the Jets winning anywhere from 10-12, based mostly on the sheer vastness of weapons at Brady's disposal here.

I agree completely. I was just addressing the question of what would happen if the QBs were on the other teams. Though maybe I misread what was being discussed.

No question the Patriots have more overall talent. Only stupid Jets' fans would think otherwise.