Pick One: a 27 year old Wes Welker, or a 27 year old Troy Brown

[ivanvamp]

Who would you rather see on the Patriots right now?
...a 27 year old Wes Welker or a 27 year old Troy Brown.

This question has been bugging me for a few days and I can't decide.

It's a really interesting question. The receiving numbers certainly say Wes Welker. Here are their average season receiving stats from ages 27-31:

Welker: 112 rec, 1,257 yds, 11.2 ypc, 6 td
Brown: 68 rec, 770 yds, 11.3 ypc, 3 td

So it doesn't appear to be particularly close. However, a couple of things to consider as caveats.

First, you have to consider the era each guy played in. The rules changed in 2004 and Brady's passing numbers have gone off the charts since then. But passing around the league has gone off the charts as well - it's not just the Patriots. So Welker's numbers aren't truly comparable on a 1:1 basis with Brown's.

Second, Brown did more things. He returned more punts, more effectively, than Welker did. During that same 5-year stretch, Welker averaged 18 punt returns for 187 yds (10.5 avg) and 0 td. Brown averaged 29 punt returns for 344 yds (11.7 avg) and 1 td. And Brown ended up playing a reasonably effective cornerback as well later on in his career - something none of us can envision Welker doing.

So a case can be made for Brown, which is why it's an interesting question, but at the end of the day, a stronger case can be made for Welker, so he's the right call.

 

[ivanvamp]

There is one answer to all of our needs at WR, Tavon Austin. Mark my words, he will be a star in the NFL. Slot Receiver, Deep Receiver, Kick Returner, Punt Returner, Runningback. Dump Demps, save some cap space, and draft Tavon Austin. You can quote me on this, he will be one of the best receivers in the NFL within his first 3 seasons, and will be torturing the teams that don't draft him. If he's going higher than #29, trade up to get him.

Austin has great hands to boot, is a student of Wes Welker (has a ton of Welker highlughts on his iPad), and loves the Pats. This guy is the perfect pick.

I'm totally on board with this. I'd love to have this guy, but I don't think NE can get him. They'd have to trade up to get him, and they don't have a lot of ammo to do that, unfortunately.

 

[Lansdowne]

I dont really have any recollection of that, but I do have a vivid memory of Rache Caldwell dropping a key 3rd down that hit him right in the numbers on his jersey while he was standing still with no one around covering him and he dropped it... and I still remember his big bug eyes staring in disbelief after the play as well

Oh I remember Ricochet's botch, how can any Pats fan forget this? O.O

I did screw up on the Troy Brown thing though. I remember Bill Simmons writing about it but he either got his sequence of events screwed up or he made it up. I rewatched the 3rd down of the drive in question and it was a run by Heath Evans that set up for Ghost to put us up 3 with 4 minutes left.

 

[Sicilian]

I would probably choose Welker too, but I'm not sure it's quite so cut and dry. It's like the old Gretzky vs. Orr argument (to use a very imperfect analogy). Look at the stats and Gretzky looks dominant, I would probably start a team with him if I could choose anyone, but considering the era he played in and the role he was asked to perform, Orr's career was arguably more impressive.

I think Troy Brown's production went way beyond numbers, and his weren't that bad considering the way the NFL game was played while he was in his prime. Not to mention he was playing slot corner at times as well.

Again, gun to my head, I'd probably choose Welker. But I really think it's a disservice to Brown to say it's not even close.

 

[mcsully]

I'm going the other way.. While W.Welker has done an excellent job in our system and I think he'll do just as well in Denver, I would take Troy Brown hands down..

I recall a conversation with Bledsoe (believe during his introduction to the Patriots hall of fame) and he stated Troy had an incredible catch radius.. Something Wes did not..

Brown played with Brady and had his best season with over 100 catches when Brady was just a baby and our system was not in place.. No question Brown would have had similar stats as Wes..

Its funny in those few short years, the rules changed and a lot and allowed the slot receiver to become a bigger focus in the game..


Lets not forget, Brown always came up with the big play in Special teams and played corner.. Guy was an all around players who did as much as Wes and more (and Wes did a lot so thats saying a lot about brown)

And of course the most important part, Brown has a couple of rings with us.. And his return against Pittsburg in 2001 and overall playoff play in 2001 played a major part of us winning the SB.. Final drive he caught the ball, Welker did not.. Just saying.. I'm on the other side

 

[Off The Grid]

Legends are made by what a player does...and sometimes what an opponent does. Potential legends* go unremembered often thanks to what an opponent does or ones teammates do.

Regards,
Chris

* (cough) Dave Henderson (cough)

Oh, I don't know...

I'll never forget Dave Henderson. :rocker:

Championships immensely enhance Legends...but they are not required.

Legends...aren't what the Short Attention Spanned Masses remember.

~ Bernie Carbo, Baby.

 

[Brady6]

Who would you rather see on the Patriots right now?
...a 27 year old Wes Welker or a 27 year old Troy Brown.

This question has been bugging me for a few days and I can't decide.

I'll have a 27 year old Randy Moss please.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Whichever one can rush the passer

That would also be Brown!

 

[Franchise12]

A 27 year old Troy Brown makes the catch Welker dropped against the Giants in the superbowl 2 years ago. A 27 tear old Troy Brown catches the balls Welker drops in the AFC championship game last January. Troy brown was a far better reciever outside the numbers. Troy Brown was a better kick/punt returner than welker.

I remember when we Patriot fans used to shun the stats and judge players on how they performed in the biggest games. Weren't we the fans that used Brady's superbowl victories to foil the Brady/Manning debate? Not only has our team become the 2004 Colts reincarnated but the we've become like colt fans as well. Manning was a far superior Qb statistically than Brady was from 2001-2006 But We patriot fans knew that brady had greater intangibles than manning. Intangibles that won more superbowls than manning's stats ever could.

The Brown/Welker debate is no different. Welker had better stats but Troy had him beat in intangibles. When the pats were doomed against the steelers in the 2001 playoffs, Troy brown showed up in the return game and made plays to bring forth victory. when Marlon Mcree pretty much had the game wrapped up for san diego who ripped the ball out to give the patriots new life? When the liquored up kicker for the colts claimed the patriots defense was "ripe for the picking" who played cornerback against one of the greatest offenses in Nfl history? Troy Brown. And that was just a handful of moments from a catalogue of big time plays in big time moments from Mr. Bingo himself. You guys can keep welker's flashy stats, at the end of the day Troy Brown was a better PLAYER than Welker. Troy's abilities as a WR/KR/PR/CB all brought forth Multiple Lombardi's to Foxboro. Cant say the same for the six years we went to war with Welker. only one of them will be revered as the quintessential Patriot. shoot, Welker doesn't even make the play that the young Branch made against the panthers to put us in range for the winning field goal.

 

[Nunchucks]

Maybe some posters didn't really watch Troy Brown all that much in his prime? New generation and all.

I would take Troy all day long. He was always making silly catches with one hand.

 

[letekro]

Both great players. Troy had bettter hands, Wes probably had the quickness edge. Neither had great speed nor challenged the deep part of the field. I don't think there's any dispute that Troy Brown was absolutely money in the bank in the clutch. Can't say the same for Wes. Any quick slot receiver with good hands that can stay healthy in the Pats offense under Brady would catch 100 balls. Troy would have been no different. Comparing his stats with Bledsoe to Welker's stats with Brady is ridiculous. Plus, Troy played in a pre-Polian rules days. .

 

[patriotsdynasty12189]

Troy Brown at 27 had 23 catches for 346 yards and didnt really turn my head in 1998. So Welker by far. Yes he had 2 drops that will live in our minds. But you cant discount what he has done. 5 years of over 110 receptions and the next closest is Jerry rice with 2 seasons over 110 receptions. The guy was historically productive and escilated Tom Bradys game to levels we never expected to see. I love Troy, but Wes was the better player. People forget Wes made a diving catch in double coverage getting smacked by Pollard and getting the 15 yard penalty in the AFCCG before he dropped that 3rd down play. Sometimes the hardest balls to catch are the ones where no ones around you.

 

[n8wood]

I was one of the few advocating going out and getting Welker back in 07:
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/51535-welker-tendered-2nd-round.html

and he is in my list of all-time favorite Patriots. But I would have to go with Troy. I think people forget how easily he would break tackles and slip by defenders while he was in his prime (pre-Brady). He was clutch.

 

[signbabybrady]

This should have been a poll question but just browsing through real quick it seems the majority is chosing Wes.

I find this a little unbelievable. Wes was great and I dont mean to take anything away from his accomplishments but I dont see how so many can just ignore the clutch aspect of this debate. Not to mention Troy is a life long Patriot and Wes is not again I dont hate Wes but I am not picking him over Troy.

Troy also is the better STer and Slot corner.

I will take Troy everyday of the week and twice on Sundays which is important as the games are usually played on Sunday.

I think it is real important to Note that Wes was about 26 when he came here and Troy was about 30 when he first paired up with Tom as a starter. Plus Tom was not in his prime for a few more years after that too. Where as Tom and Wes were both in the primes at the same time.

IMO this is not evan a Debate. Troy Brown is one of the greatest Patriots of all time regardless of position and Wes is just one of the top 3 or 4 WRs in Patriot history.

 

[tonyto3690]

I'm laughing at the fools calling welker a choke artist.

He's the only one on offense to show up in sb 42 and had a big game against the ravens, as well as the giants in 11 iirc.

On top of that he's carried the team for stretches while the moss', galloways, stallworths, hernandezs, gronks, and of the world continuously let down or got
Hurt.

 

[PatsFan2]

How many SB's did we win with Wes Smelker? Puhplease!

 

[IllegalContact]

troy brown ...... 10x the football player

not even close

it's like asking if you would prefer george gervin over john havilcek

 

[Ozymandias]

A wise man once said, "Stats are for losers."

Ultimately, the superior football player is Troy Brown. Wes was and always will be one of the all time greatest Patriots' receivers statistically.

In today's NFL I'd take Brown in a heartbeat. I'm not entirely sure a player of Welker's caliber could have thrived in the era and defensive principles that Brown played in the way he does today.

 

[Bruins29]

Maybe some posters didn't really watch Troy Brown all that much in his prime? New generation and all.

I would take Troy all day long. He was always making silly catches with one hand.

I would too.

That is the problem. There are many guys here who were just too young. As great as WW was TB was a better player. He just was. As mentioned above in some great posts about the intangibles he brought, i.e. his versatility, his unbelievable clutch moments and team first attitude, defensive play. You can go on and on about him. He was here 14 years and was the heart and soul of the team for many of these years.

And I like WW. I called WW the Cam Neely of the Patriots so that shows you how high I hold him in regard.

Maden and Fantasy Football have really done a number on real football IMO.

 

[PatsFan2]

A wise man once said, "Stats are for losers."

Ultimately, the superior football player is Troy Brown. Wes was and always will be one of the all time greatest Patriots' receivers statistically.

In today's NFL I'd take Brown in a heartbeat. I'm not entirely sure a player of Welker's caliber could have thrived in the era and defensive principles that Brown played in the way he does today.

Exactly its very easy to put up decent stats in the Touch Football era see Brandon Lloyd stats in 2012. I also don't remember Troy *coughs* *dropping* as many key targets as Welker...especially SB winning catches or drops in Welkers case.