Pats engaged in talks for Javon walker

[JoeSixPat]

If the Packers are truly demanding a #1 draft choice, no one is going to take him.

A healthy Walker would be great - hopefully a return to 2004 form and a 6-3 body in the endzone

But he's still damaged goods.

Maybe a 4th rounder and a conditional pick next year depending on his performance?

 

[PatsFanInVa]

On the timing of this: With the bad blood, perhaps the Packers are doing their talking now to screw him/scare him. Consider:

You do this in March, and everybody has nice talks, workouts, etc. You do it now, and it's not the team that's desperate looking, it's the player.

Teams are sitting around salivating about draft choices right now, distracted. Sure the Pack wants that extra high pick going in, to get rid of a recently injured malcontent - nobrainer.

But it puts Walker (and agent) out there trying to get contract demands met when 1) the draft is in 2 days and 2) 6/1, and roster cuts, are right around the corner.

Ergo, he's in a pinch. His choices:
1) See if people bite on the demands now, pretend you don't care if they bite or not, and let the chips fall where they may, or
2) Face a hugely expanded supply and a dwindling demand for his services, as other options get exercised.

I would say his dollar value decreases with the passing weeks at this point.

Wait him out, I say. If he really made a deal and we really get to hear about it tonight at 10:30, I would say he bit the bullet early and did not pull down the tall cakes in the process.

But as lots of people point out, this could be a disappointing "announcement" (along the lines of "Brett might or might not play this year.")

PFnV

 

[JoeSixPat]

On the timing of this: With the bad blood, perhaps the Packers are doing their talking now to screw him/scare him.

Not so much with the timing, but there might be some element of truth to this - especially if the Packers don't back down on what they are demanding for him, because if they expect a first round pick, not even the 49ers will go for that.

If no one makes a decent offer - and a damaged goods player in the last year of his contract who has an attitude issue and spat with his QB and who has previously demanded a new contract might not be all that appealing to a GM - then the Packers still have him.

The bottom line would be that Walker could sit out and pout, knowing that most teams don't currently think all that highly of him

Or return to the huddle and play with a good attitude, have a great season, and try to give his FA value a boost for when his contract is up.

Aside from that, the timing doesn't seem all that odd to me

1) Farve just officially (big shock) announced he's back
2) Walker had previously demanded to be traded if Farve is back
3) I think the draft is coming up sometime soon, so if you are trying to get a draft pick for Walker, now's probably a good time to do so

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I used to feel as you do, but such non-Kool-aid thoughts caused other Patsfans members to hold an intervention with me in various threads.

They've convinced me that we are well stocked at WR - specifically that Caldwell is actually a #1 WR - and that we can expect all our other WRs who averaged 4 catches last year to have career seasons (6 passes?)

CATS is also one of the best broadway musicals of all time.

LOL

The problem for us as I see it is two fold. To trade a day one pick which is apparently what it's going to take you need to extend the player. And that could interfere with Branch. Smith thought Walker would come here on his old deal to re-prove himself with Brady, but the downside of that is what you have to pay him if he in fact succeeds vs. what you lost if he doesn't. Then there is the little matter of those other receivers. Smith indicated that these deals may also involve a player as well as a pick. Denver has already included Lelie and a day two pick. NO might well package Stallworth and a pick (the old disgruntled players swap). I assume our chip is Bethel, but he is not likely to have the offset value of the other two. Smith also said Walker is so motivated to get out of GB he is not going to let finances interfere with that goal. Really hates Lord Favre for calling him out last year and the rest of the team for being a place that condones Favre's double standard.

As I watch this all play out I am left scratching my head as to why we didn't apparently even make a run at Jurevicus or the WR from Atlanta in this market and given the overall concensus on this WR draft just to have a cushion.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

As I watch this all play out I am left scratching my head as to why we didn't apparently even make a run at Jurevicus or the WR from Atlanta in this market

Because they basically suck compared to Javon Walker.

 

[mgcolby]

I used to feel as you do, but such non-Kool-aid thoughts caused other Patsfans members to hold an intervention with me in various threads.

They've convinced me that we are well stocked at WR - specifically that Caldwell is actually a #1 WR - and that we can expect all our other WRs who averaged 4 catches last year to have career seasons (6 passes?)

CATS is also one of the best broadway musicals of all time.

To me it seems obvious, although Caldwell has the "potential" to be a #2 he has yet to prove it. Compare his numbers to Givens, they are light years apart in production. Bethel to me is a waste, Brown isn't getting younger. We need someone to fill the void, as it stands now we have Branch, Caldwell, Brown, Bethel and Bam. Count me in as one that doesn't like that. They need to trade or pick someone up after the June 1 cuts.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Because they basically suck compared to Javon Walker.

...2004 edition.

Any team overlooks that at their peril (or projects him to be more healed than he shows in workouts because they want him to be.)

Well, Brett timing does screw Javon timing, is all I can say - which may account for "duhhhhh I really can't make up my mind," combined with the Packers' front office saying "duhhhhhh well if Brett needs more time, that's okie dokie by us..."

What do you think Javon is doing when he watches that scene at home on his couch?

"Jesus Brett... I can't get on the market if you don't decide..."

Now he gets to "test the waters" with negotiating time running low vis a vis the draft and the 6/1 cuts. Pack gets the draft choice if it works out, Javon is forced to play with them another year if not. No sweat off their backs. Walker (and/or agent) potentially sweats from now until September.

I don't think that cap money the Pats are sitting on was earmarked for a Walker deal, but you never know what they are thinking. More likely to me they see 6/1 cuts as the begining of the "motivated seller" market, and the end of the "signing frenzy market." (See big splash additions from earlier years - I believe they tend to happen when everyone thinks the big splash signings are over.)

Okay, now tell me if I'm wrong.

PFnV

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Because they basically suck compared to Javon Walker.

That's beside the point because we could never assume we would get Walker, or MeShawn or Moulds or count on the market to teach Givens his place because other teams have their very own stupid plans....Do they suck compared to Caldwell or Johnson or Childress or the 800 year old WR/CB aka Troy Brown? Do they suck compared to the revolving door contestants we brought to camp last season like Terrell and Davis?

Just like last year when BB thought he had Mason until Mrs. Mason decided she'd rather take a few dollars less to have her catch passes from whomever the Ravens lined up behind center (or something...).

We love to say BB has plans A, B, C, D and the secret plan that trumps them all. Only sometimes so do other teams. Like a NO who just emerged from the woodwork as a frontrunner for Walker.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

...2004 edition.

Any team overlooks that at their peril (or projects him to be more healed than he shows in workouts because they want him to be.)

Well, Brett timing does screw Javon timing, is all I can say - which may account for "duhhhhh I really can't make up my mind," combined with the Packers' front office saying "duhhhhhh well if Brett needs more time, that's okie dokie by us..."

What do you think Javon is doing when he watches that scene at home on his couch?

"Jesus Brett... I can't get on the market if you don't decide..."

Now he gets to "test the waters" with negotiating time running low vis a vis the draft and the 6/1 cuts. Pack gets the draft choice if it works out, Javon is forced to play with them another year if not. No sweat off their backs. Walker (and/or agent) potentially sweats from now until September.

I don't think that cap money the Pats are sitting on was earmarked for a Walker deal, but you never know what they are thinking. More likely to me they see 6/1 cuts as the begining of the "motivated seller" market, and the end of the "signing frenzy market." (See big splash additions from earlier years - I believe they tend to happen when everyone thinks the big splash signings are over.)

Okay, now tell me if I'm wrong.

PFnV

There won't be many motivated sellers on the June 1 market this season because of the choices make in the run up to the CBA and the $8M windfall it's signing created. Few teams are feeling any serious cap pinch at the moment.

 

[Flying Fungi]

Overall, there seems to be a trend in trading WRs heading into the last year of their rookie deal, before they leave for big dollars in free agency. It's smart management if you're not a contender. If the Patriots weren't a playoff team, we probably would have seen Givens traded before last season.

So far we have Walker, Stallworth, and Lelie. The first two definitely fit the mold. Lelie just has a ridiculously high opinion of his worth. Am I forgetting anybody?

I think Josh Reed was in this category, but Beefalo kept him around...

 

[spacecrime]

Nobody else wanted Antowain Smith.

Yeah, maybe, but they still gave him a huge deal in 2002. Something like $3.5 or $4 mil signing bonus and hefty salaries.

 

[DaBruinz]

LOL


As I watch this all play out I am left scratching my head as to why we didn't apparently even make a run at Jurevicus or the WR from Atlanta in this market and given the overall concensus on this WR draft just to have a cushion.

Hmm.. do I note a hint of sarcasm there? The Pats did try to sign Jurevicius and Finneran. Unfortunately, they got better deals with the Browns and Falcons, respectively.

I don't think the Pats are really players for Walker. Not because he wouldn't upgrade the receiving corps. But because of his contract demands.

I think that the Pats are focused on the draft and that their next agenda item is to get Branch extended.

 

[spacecrime]

They've convinced me that we are well stocked at WR - specifically that Caldwell is actually a #1 WR - and that we can expect all our other WRs who averaged 4 catches last year to have career seasons (6 passes?)

I think you can expect Tom Brady to throw about as many passes this year as he threw last year and have about the same completion percentage.

Someone will catch those passes.

You can't look at it in a vacuum and say we lost Givens and therefore we will catch 40 less passes this year, or we kept Branch and Brown and they had 100 passes together last year and will catch 100 (no more, no less) next year.

Caldwell as #2 will catch a lot of passes. If he is good, he will catch them. If he is not good, then the opposing D will focus on Branch and doubleor triple team him, and he will catch a lot of passes because Brady will find the open guy. Think of Caldwell with Branch as Price with Moulds.

But the bottom line is don't panic, Brady will complete about as many passes this year as last year.

 

[DaBruinz]

I used to feel as you do, but such non-Kool-aid thoughts caused other Patsfans members to hold an intervention with me in various threads.

They've convinced me that we are well stocked at WR - specifically that Caldwell is actually a #1 WR - and that we can expect all our other WRs who averaged 4 catches last year to have career seasons (6 passes?)

CATS is also one of the best broadway musicals of all time.

JSP -
I never figured you to be someone who would exaggerate the truth to the extent of absurdity and borderline lying. Considering that I was a part of that other thread, I can say that NO ONE said that Caldwell was bonifide #1. What was told to you was that Caldwell had earned a starting position in 2004 with the Chargers until he went down with his torn ACL. What was also said was that you couldn't judge last year's production because Caldwell was the 5th option as a receiver and was still healing from his ACL. You know the injury that everyone says takes 18 months to fully heal from. And that you have to look at the fact that he had 4 great receivers in front of him in Gates, Tomlinson, McCardell and Parker. Taking into consideration that the Chargers use a 2 back set for a majority of their plays, its very easy to see why Caldwell didn't have many receptions last year.

 

[DaBruinz]

To me it seems obvious, although Caldwell has the "potential" to be a #2 he has yet to prove it. Compare his numbers to Givens, they are light years apart in production. Bethel to me is a waste, Brown isn't getting younger. We need someone to fill the void, as it stands now we have Branch, Caldwell, Brown, Bethel and Bam. Count me in as one that doesn't like that. They need to trade or pick someone up after the June 1 cuts.

How can you compare Caldwell's numbers to Given's numbers and ignore the following:

1) Givens was the #2 receiver the last two years and didn't have a catastrophic injury
2) Caldwell was the #2 receiver for the Chargers in 2004 before his ACL tore.
3) The Chargers acquired Keenan McCardell to replace Caldwell in 2004 after Caldwell's injury.
4) Even before Caldwell was injured, the WRs weren't the primary targets in that offense. Antonio Gates and LaDanian Tomlinson were. So, at best, Caldwell was the 3rd option in their offense.
5) When Caldwell returned in 2005, he was now the 5th option behind Tomlinson, Gates, Parker, and McCardell.
6) The Chargers didn't use very many 3 WR sets. Their primary set was the 2 back set with 2 WRs and a TE.

Now, I am NOT saying that Caldwell is the next coming of Stanley Morgan. I am saying that he has the talent and can use it to be a very productive receiver for the Pats. Whether its as the #2 or #3 receiver.

Also, most teams can use upgrades in their receiving corps. I am not beyond saying that the Pats could use one. However, I am not going to act like the sky is falling either. This corps, as it is right now, is no worse than the 2001 WR corps that the Patriots had. I think that we will be surprised and see 2 or 3 "rookies" there.

 

[nickw308810]

If only we could get studs like Fred Coleman and Shockmain Davis back...

 

[mgcolby]

How can you compare Caldwell's numbers to Given's numbers and ignore the following:

1) Givens was the #2 receiver the last two years and didn't have a catastrophic injury
2) Caldwell was the #2 receiver for the Chargers in 2004 before his ACL tore.
3) The Chargers acquired Keenan McCardell to replace Caldwell in 2004 after Caldwell's injury.
4) Even before Caldwell was injured, the WRs weren't the primary targets in that offense. Antonio Gates and LaDanian Tomlinson were. So, at best, Caldwell was the 3rd option in their offense.
5) When Caldwell returned in 2005, he was now the 5th option behind Tomlinson, Gates, Parker, and McCardell.
6) The Chargers didn't use very many 3 WR sets. Their primary set was the 2 back set with 2 WRs and a TE.

Now, I am NOT saying that Caldwell is the next coming of Stanley Morgan. I am saying that he has the talent and can use it to be a very productive receiver for the Pats. Whether its as the #2 or #3 receiver.

Also, most teams can use upgrades in their receiving corps. I am not beyond saying that the Pats could use one. However, I am not going to act like the sky is falling either. This corps, as it is right now, is no worse than the 2001 WR corps that the Patriots had. I think that we will be surprised and see 2 or 3 "rookies" there.

I never implied the sky is falling, I simply stated the recieving corp is not very solid right now.

Caldwell has played in 6 less games then Givens and has less than half the production. The numbers speak for themselves. Givens also did this in an offense that has the ball spread around. I'm not saying he sucks, I am just stating that he has yet to prove he is a legitimate #2. How can you say otherwise? Because he got hurt? Kijana carter could have been the greatest running back ever but we don't know, because he got hurt. Until Caldwell proves that he is a legitimate #2 which he can't do until TC starts, the Pats should be (and based on the rumors, are) looking for a legitimate #2 or #1a!

 

[PatsFanInVa]

There won't be many motivated sellers on the June 1 market this season because of the choices make in the run up to the CBA and the $8M windfall it's signing created. Few teams are feeling any serious cap pinch at the moment.

Mo, good point that "money is cheaper" this year, but the market still floods in June, and floods a whole nother way with Saturday's draft.

When the dust settles after Saturday, teams that got a first round WR will be those who pegged their value pretty high... and are more likely to ditch the idea of hiring a stud WR in FA, even if the "stud-in-the-making" has a 3 year "maturing process" to go through. That is unless they want at least 2 new faces coming out of this offseason, Walker at #1 and the draftee, say, in the slot. Drafting a first rounder to ride the pine is a possibility but less so than in previous years, with some rookie contracts constrained to 4 years.

Think of TO. Dallas can now figure "we're pretty loaded at wideout... we'll draft elsewhere."

Think of T.O. if first available today, WITH a recent severe injury, with the draft coming Saturday. Dallas has shuffled its draft deck, made meticulous plans, and sees a monster talent who wants monster money and has an attitude problem and an injury problem, coming out 3 days before the draft... do they maybe wait until after they've picked "best available"?

I think the "days before the draft" thing has an impact this way. That said, will somebody pick up Walker? Sure, though a number 1 next year is a lot easy to cough up than a number 1 this year (which I still do not understand... but that's how it's looked at.) And you can cough up a number 1 next year...AFTER THE DRAFT IS OVER. And the draft decreases the total demand for Walker's services. Supply increases again 6/1. His talent is at a certain level, but we don't really know who sees him as a quantum (lambeau) leap better, and who sees him as the upper end of a relatively smooth continuum of talent. We do know, the Pats go after him if he's at a high point in value (bang for the buck.)

Maybe I'm off base, but this is a recently injured guy who would have to be interviewed, worked out, physically examined, etc. etc. etc. for you to make a smart decision on him. You really want to do all that with the draft 3 days out? Maybe Miami does.

Again, I've been wrong before, but it will be interesting to see if a Walker frenzy develops now, or whether we're seeing that he's "talking" to a bunch of teams, and it all goes on hold for the draft, resumes, and then takes a lot of bickering to work out.

PFnV

 

[JoeSixPat]

JSP -
I never figured you to be someone who would exaggerate the truth to the extent of absurdity and borderline lying. Considering that I was a part of that other thread, I can say that NO ONE said that Caldwell was bonifide #1. What was told to you was that Caldwell had earned a starting position in 2004 with the Chargers until he went down with his torn ACL. What was also said was that you couldn't judge last year's production because Caldwell was the 5th option as a receiver and was still healing from his ACL. You know the injury that everyone says takes 18 months to fully heal from. And that you have to look at the fact that he had 4 great receivers in front of him in Gates, Tomlinson, McCardell and Parker. Taking into consideration that the Chargers use a 2 back set for a majority of their plays, its very easy to see why Caldwell didn't have many receptions last year.

Clearly my post VERY tounge in cheek and greatly exaggerated (unless you really DO think CATS is the best Broadway musical)...

But you've effectively illustrated the fact that there seems to be a difference of opinion that some think WR isn't a position of need and some think it makes sense to give our biggest and best weapon some proven WRs.

We seem to go through this every year, with folks singing the praises of guys like Bethel, PK, David Terrell, Tim Dwight, Andre Davis

Heck, BB himself tried to upgrade the position with the best FA on the market last year - and that was when we still had Givens

Yet everytime someone points out that WR lacks depth - and even a proven #2 WR - their football savvy is seemingly questioned

It seems like common sense to me that this area absolutely needs to be addressed - so its just funny to me that so many so vocally disagree

 

[JoeSixPat]

I think you can expect Tom Brady to throw about as many passes this year as he threw last year and have about the same completion percentage.

Someone will catch those passes.

Hmmm - perhaps I should try out.... I mean why NOT me? After all, most of the guys on the roster don't have too many more NFL receptions than I do!