Patriots claim TE Jake Ballard

[patchick]

Are you really sticking to the belief that the speed required to be an effective WR is 100% defined by what your time in a 40 was before your rookie season?

I'm confident that nobody think that. I'm also confident, Andy, that YOU don't think a 40 time is AHern's only claim to WR-like skills, since his short-area quickness, hands and change of direction skills compare very favorably to big WRs like Jordy Nelson and Hakeem Nicks, who weigh 30 pounds less.

Of course, nobody would tab Nelson and Nicks as slot receivers; they're a different kind of WR. Along the same lines, it's hard to picture pluggin in Hernandez to the exact role Welker plays. The more interesting question, I think, is whether you could successfully tweak the offense to give Hernandez a lot of Welker's reps, with 2 other TEs on the field.

 

[The Scrizz]

Brad Childress is the OC for Cleveland

took me all of two seconds to confirm what i stated earlier

It began in the days before the start of the 2007 season, when Childress claimed Belichick called to ask him not to claim tight end Garrett Mills


nothing new here

You confirmed nothing except that Childress is an ass hat and that a monkey can use Google. I never said the stories hadn't been told. I correctly stated that the single source for the story is the possibly mentally ill former HC of the Vikings. He also claimed that he 'stole' Percy from the Pats. I wasn't aware he had their draft board.

Kindly explain to me what is gained by calling Childress when there are 30 other teams that could have claimed Mills. Did Belichick call them all?

And I must have missed him being hired as the OC of the team that was 30th in points scored last year. I honestly don't pay much attention to has beens being hired by crappy teams. Not much room to go down from there though, perfect job for him. I'll hold that intern position for him just in case.

:singing:

 

[The Scrizz]

I'm wrapping up this thread.

1) I think it should be, Fell Balls Gronkandez. Although, that is a trifle long. Although, that's what she said.

I would go with Balls Fell.

 

[Nehalem]

As I said, if we want to be naive and pretend that the WR skillset can be summed up by what a guys 40 time was before his rookie season, its not much of an analysis.

By the way if you are going to make Lloyd the sum total of your analysis, do you include that he struggled to only 51 catches in 3 years from 06-08, and before the one season you mention happened he was on his 4th team in 7 years catching a total of 164 passes?
Also, if you really think Hernandez is 'slightly faster' than Lloyd I'd ask how many times a football player runs 40 yards straight with no one hitting them, and what percentage of the job of a WR that adds up to.

I dont think 40 speed is the end all of being a reciever. But since I assume most people are happy that Lloyd is now a Patriots reciever Hernandez should not have an issue with his 40 speed.

And in addition Hernandez is much bigger than Lloyd which should help him with the hitting part of football.

 

[Deus Irae]

I dont think 40 speed is the end all of being a reciever. But since I assume most people are happy that Lloyd is now a Patriots reciever Hernandez should not have an issue with his 40 speed.

And in addition Hernandez is much bigger than Lloyd which should help him with the hitting part of football.

I'm confused here.

People evaluating Hernandez as a potential WR shouldn't have an issue with Hernandez' speed because, while in his underwear and running in an event that was run Olympics-style as opposed to off the snap of a football field, he ran a marginally faster time (3 and 4 100ths of a second) than what some slow receivers ran in their underwear?

Wouldn't that make more sense if people didn't acknowledge a lack of 'straight speed' as an issue with those same WRs?

 

[Ring 6]

I dont think 40 speed is the end all of being a reciever. But since I assume most people are happy that Lloyd is now a Patriots reciever Hernandez should not have an issue with his 40 speed.

And in addition Hernandez is much bigger than Lloyd which should help him with the hitting part of football.

So what you are saying is that he is TE whose 40 times is in the range of what some of the slower times for WRs have been?

 

[Ring 6]

I'm confident that nobody think that.

The person I responded to does, when he states:

Meanwhile, somebody needs to tell Welker and Lloyd that theyre too slow to play WR in the NFL.

I'm also confident, Andy, that YOU don't think a 40 time is AHern's only claim to WR-like skills, since his short-area quickness, hands and change of direction skills compare very favorably to big WRs like Jordy Nelson and Hakeem Nicks, who weigh 30 pounds less.

Thats just it though, his quickness and change of direction are not better than those guys.

Of course, nobody would tab Nelson and Nicks as slot receivers; they're a different kind of WR. Along the same lines, it's hard to picture pluggin in Hernandez to the exact role Welker plays. The more interesting question, I think, is whether you could successfully tweak the offense to give Hernandez a lot of Welker's reps, with 2 other TEs on the field.

Its a different dimension. Sure you can evolve the offense any way you like, but the skills that Welker possesses are a big part of the current offense, and Hernandez is not a like replacement for Welkers duties.

 

[Nehalem]

So what you are saying is that he is TE whose 40 times is in the range of what some of the slower times for WRs have been?

It is in the same range as what slower, but still successful, WRs have been.

And I thought Jerry Rice ran something like a 4.7. I think he did ok

 

[Ring 6]

It is in the same range as what slower, but still successful, WRs have been.

And I thought Jerry Rice ran something like a 4.7. I think he did ok

But thats the point. There is more to the 'speed' requirement of being an effective WR than how fast you ran 40 straight yards on a track before your rookie year.
Welker is not too slow to play WR, but most guys who run his 40 time struggle with speed issues.
It is wrong to take all of the speed, quickness and agility variables that affect a WR and narrow it down to what their 40 was at the combine.
If the narrow defition is did Hernandez run a 40 at the combine that was as fast as some good receivers, the answer is obviously yes.
If the question is whether Hernandez has the skillset of an effective WR, the answer is no.

 

[patchick]

Thats just it though, his quickness and change of direction are not better than those guys.

Huh. My eyes tell me he's in the same ballpark despite his greater bulk, and what measurables we have back that up. :confused2:

 

[mgteich]

A QUESTION ABOUT BALLARD
I don't have the patience to look through the 169 posts on so many topics. Perhaps this has bene answered

QUESTION
If we put Ballard on the PUP list, as seems likey, will we able to place him on IR after 8 weeks without him having to pass through waivers?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Yes. And it's always possible he won't be IR'd. Bill said today he looks to be doing well considering the procedure (he had ACL and microfracture) and when it was done (4 months ago). He could potentially be ready to play by November.

 

[patchick]

Yes. And it's always possible he won't be IR'd. Bill said today he looks to be doing well considering the procedure (he had ACL and microfracture) and when it was done (4 months ago). He could potentially be ready to play by November.

Well, that would make the Giants' bizarre attempt to send him to IR via waivers in June even stranger!

 

[Metaphors]

I think the trap we sometimes fall into is the notion that players who leave need their roles exactly replaced and new players need to fit exactly into existing roles. I think Belichick has been on a quest to make this offense something completely new. We've seen glimpses of this in 2010/2011 but I anticipate it will fully manifest itself in the next 2 years.

In an era of defensive specialization, the natural counter from offensive teams is to be completely "unspecialized"...or more precisely have the ability to be "multiple" without changing skill personnel. Consider Lloyd, Hernandez, Gronk, Fells/Ballard, Vereen. They can line up in a power formation (HB Vereen, FB Hernandez, TE Gronk) and shift to a spread with those 3 lining up split out at WR.

What does the defense do? Go light/fast to rush Brady and you get run over with 7 blockers at 270+ lbs and another at almost 250. Go heavier to stop the run and you are single-covering one of Gronk/Hernandez/Vereen with a LB. Blitz and the Pats can easily max protect to pick it up (or screen around it).

If the Pats offense stays on schedule with down/distance, the defense almost has to stay in a base formation to account for everything. That keeps coverage and rush specialists either on the bench or getting picked on with they do take the field. This doesn't make the Pats offense unbeatable, but it does require defensive players to consistently win their one-on-one battles to get the Pats off the field...particularly in the trenches.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

A QUESTION ABOUT BALLARD
I don't have the patience to look through the 169 posts on so many topics. Perhaps this has bene answered

QUESTION
If we put Ballard on the PUP list, as seems likey, will we able to place him on IR after 8 weeks without him having to pass through waivers?

Yes. He isn't being cut so he directly goes to the IR. I believe the rules are (for players on PuP) that you either activate them or IR them. There is no waivers for them.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

If the question is whether Hernandez has the skillset of an effective WR, the answer is no.

You argue that he hasn't played there yet, so shouldn't your answer be:

"not yet determined, but presumably no, because I don't think he looks to be fast enough to be effective"?

You rightly knock 40 Y.D. times as being inadequate to gauge speed, but do not supplement it with anything more than your opinion, while vigorously defending your opinion as if it were chiseled in a stone tablet carried down by Moses.

Some people think AH can excel as as relatively rare "jumbo wide reciever" position, if you choose to call it that, which is pretty much what non-blocking TEs like Kellen Winslow Sr. were, decades ago.

If a tight end doesn't block much, can line up wide, run deep routes, seam routes, crossing routes, screens, end arounds, etc. all at decent speed, with good hands, and after the catch ability, then the distinctions between the tight end and wide receiver positions for those types of players are pretty much unclear and perhaps irrelevant.

 

[Avenger]

Hernandez only lined up as a tight end inline for 29% of snaps, the rest were either split wide or in the slot for the most part, with the remaining percent in the back field

 

[Ring 6]

Huh. My eyes tell me he's in the same ballpark despite his greater bulk, and what measurables we have back that up. :confused2:

We disagree, no biggie. I just don't see Hernandez able to run the routes with the speed, quickness, and agility of Hakeem Nicks. He isn't even asked to run the kind of routes Nicks runs very much.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Aaron Hernandez Highlights - YouTube

The game winner vs. the Cowboys he beat their #1 CB Jenkins split wide, Chargers TD he was in the slot, and other plays he's out wide.

 

[Ring 6]

You argue that he hasn't played there yet, so shouldn't your answer be:

"not yet determined, but presumably no, because I don't think he looks to be fast enough to be effective"?

Well thats one answer, but I don't know that I have to qualify every statement I make in such detail. The reason he hasn't seems clear.

You rightly knock 40 Y.D. times as being inadequate to gauge speed, but do not supplement it with anything more than your opinion, while vigorously defending your opinion as if it were chiseled in a stone tablet carried down by Moses.

Huh? 40 times were offered as a counter to my opinion. I explained why they were a poor argument. Why would I need to supplement that with anything else.
I am not 'defending my opinion' in any other way than stating what it is, and explaining why it is.
How is my opinion 'chiseled' any more than anyone else who expresses an opinion they are confident in and explains why poor counter arguments are poor?

Some people think AH can excel as as relatively rare "jumbo wide reciever" position, if you choose to call it that, which is pretty much what non-blocking TEs like Kellen Winslow Sr. were, decades ago.

As a 'gimmick', sure that could work, but the skills to play WR full time just aren't there. I think you are missing the in between position of an HBack of flexed out TE, designed to take a guy like Hernandez, or Winslow, or many others and mismatch themin space vs LBs and Safeties that is what he plays.

If a tight end doesn't block much, can line up wide, run deep routes, seam routes, crossing routes, screens, end arounds, etc. all at decent speed, with good hands, and after the catch ability, then the distinctions between the tight end and wide receiver positions for those types of players are pretty much unclear and perhaps irrelevant.

There is a tremendous difference in whether he is, and whether he can be effective, being covered by corners or LBs and safeties.
I agree he is not a traditionally TE. He is weak as a blocker, and has excellent mobility, speed, and agiilty for a TE. That is why he is used the way he is. That doesn't make him a WR though.