PatFanKen Where Art Thou?

[Ian]

Stu owned Bleachers. I was going to USM at the time, and was dating a waitress there. Bleachers was right next to the Portland campus.

Ah - I thought you meant Stu owned Rivals. And I've been there, great place.

 

[bresna]

For the Patriots, the team has been making an uncharacteristic number of bone headed mistakes and penalties for the last 4 seasons. That goes directly to the coaching and HC.

Ahh... here is where you show your true colors. You want it both ways. The Patriots got rid of a player who made one of the biggest boneheaded plays of these past 4 years & what do posters like you have to say? It usually goes like this - Belichick's an idiot. He got rid of their best receiver.

Team building is not easy and unlike some of you, I've given Belichick a lot of leeway. While I do think he really messed up this year, including signing JSS to replace the bonehead, he has made some good moves (drafting Douglas & Gonzalez, re-signing Peppers, etc) that just aren't going to help this year & that's mostly due to injuries. Injuries can really mess up any team. I think about how much better they'd be if they had injured players like Judon, Gonzalez, Bourne & Marcus Jones available. Heck, even Isaiah Bolden looked good before that horrific injury & I have to wonder how that affected the team. That was a scary injury.

 

[Ivan]

Also, just to clarify, @patfanken being in a bar was a joke someone made. I certainly don't think he's off somewhere drinking himself silly.

I’m was just joking about that as well. We have been talking football for decades so I know that Ken knows that I like and respect him. That doesn’t mean we always agree, but Ken knows a lot about football, and I know and respect that.

Ah - I thought you meant Stu owned Rivals. And I've been there, great place.

You guys we’re friends, right? I knew Stu from him owning Bleachers, but I got the impression you knew him when he was pitching for UMO. He was a great baseball player.

 

[Guts]

Team building is not easy and unlike some of you, I've given Belichick a lot of leeway. While I do think he really messed up this year, including signing JSS to replace the bonehead, he has made some good moves (drafting Douglas & Gonzalez, re-signing Peppers, etc) that just aren't going to help this year & that's mostly due to injuries. Injuries can really mess up any team. I think about how much better they'd be if they had injured players like Judon, Gonzalez, Bourne & Marcus Jones available. Heck, even Isaiah Bolden looked good before that horrific injury & I have to wonder how that affected the team. That was a scary injury.

I gave him 3-4 years to keep us somewhat relevant kind of like Seattle when your franchise QB leaves

Instead we are discussing the draft in the beginning of December. He has failed big time there's nothing wrong in calling that out. I would also add there's alot of people who want him gone now. This season is unacceptable

 

[Ian]

Ahh... here is where you show your true colors. You want it both ways. The Patriots got rid of a player who made one of the biggest boneheaded plays of these past 4 years & what do posters like you have to say? It usually goes like this - Belichick's an idiot. He got rid of their best receiver.

Team building is not easy and unlike some of you, I've given Belichick a lot of leeway. While I do think he really messed up this year, including signing JSS to replace the bonehead, he has made some good moves (drafting Douglas & Gonzalez, re-signing Peppers, etc) that just aren't going to help this year & that's mostly due to injuries. Injuries can really mess up any team. I think about how much better they'd be if they had injured players like Judon, Gonzalez, Bourne & Marcus Jones available. Heck, even Isaiah Bolden looked good before that horrific injury & I have to wonder how that affected the team. That was a scary injury.

They actually have a pretty good young nucleus thanks to finally putting together a few good drafts, which has been key. Injuries absolutely hurt them this year, and I think the Marcus Jones one was tough because he could have at least given them some added speed on offense, which they're obviously missing. Not to mention their depth on defense.

I think the biggest mistake was also banking on Parker to be more than he is. He's a guy who looks like he's working his butt off one game, only to look like he's going through the motions during the next. Curious to see how he performs with Zappe ... again, I don't think he and Mac were ever on the same page.

 

[Ian]

You guys we’re friends, right? I knew Stu from him owning Bleachers, but I got the impression you knew him when he was pitching for UMO. He was a great baseball player.

No, I didn't know him, unfortunately

 

[Vindicate]

As of lately, you have to ask for thoughtful analysis here. But it works. And is worthwhile the extra step. Even the people who **** talk hard (outside a few folks who just are straight up inflammatory) will offer a decent explanation if you ask them to, which offers you a chance to have a discussion.

I've regurgitated many talking points from those exact convos, into my IRL football circles. Still appreciate what this place brings, you can still squeeze some incredible discussion out of here that you just don't get anywhere else. I've searched other forums and you just don't find that insight, people willing to break things down, etc.

 

[n6249c]

They actually have a pretty good young nucleus thanks to finally putting together a few good drafts, which has been key. Injuries absolutely hurt them this year, and I think the Marcus Jones one was tough because he could have at least given them some added speed on offense, which they're obviously missing. Not to mention their depth on defense.

I think the biggest mistake was also banking on Parker to be more than he is. He's a guy who looks like he's working his butt off one game, only to look like he's going through the motions during the next. Curious to see how he performs with Zappe ... again, I don't think he and Mac were ever on the same page.

There have been so many injuries I tend to forget about Marcus. The OL went from trying to build on the foundation from last year to going into camp and starting the season with no foundation and not many building blocks. Reiff, Anderson, Onwenu, the list goes on. Losing Bolden in preseason and then Gonzo and Judon early in the season, and despite that the D has balled. Having Bourne go down really nailed the coffin shut, especially with a QB that’s peeing himself as soon as he sees a pass rush.

Agree that Parker and Juju have been disappointing. I think Bill sometimes lets his appreciation and admiration for past performance of established veterans warp his evaluatoons. Maybe he has been looking at them thinking of what he could do with them and doesn’t factor in wear and tear and how they’ve aged when he gets the chance to sign them. The “better a year early than a year late” gets distorted and he signs guys like Juju and Parker a year too late. Sometimes it works, like Zeke, and that makes it harder to avoid being overly hopeful about the old guys.

 

[Ring 6]

So you're saying they have no respect for the game or their careers down the line and they let one player's performance drag them down that easily?

He’s full of crap

 

[Sam Bam Cunningham]

Always enjoyed Ken's tremendous insights on the intricacies of detailed line play strategy. As he was a coach and player he brought something invaluable to this board. An insider's knowledge about what the game is about at the micro level.
I will not speculate why he has not been posting lately.
I will just say that this board has changed tremendously over the past 12 months.
There was formerly a large contingent of "In Bill we trust" posters. For those of us who were not IBWT since Brady left, critical BB posts were met with scorn, derision and personal insults.
This year as the truth about Bill's fading competency as a GM and possibly as a coach became completely validated, the scornful IBWT posters have either disappeared or brought their shared opinions more in line with reality. There was also the "He brought us 6 super bowl trophies, how dare you criticize Bill, bow your head in obsequious loyalty fool...."
I have never had anything against the IBWT posters...except when personal insults were hurled...which was quite frequent.

I will always be a huge Pats fans....have been since 1967 when I first saw them in Fenway Park against the Bills. I can even remember when they played at Nickerson Field and were the Boston laughingstocks. I have lived through much worse prolonged terrible football stretches than this (Clive Rush, Mike Holovak, Johnny Mazur, Phil Bentsen, **** Macpherson, Rod Rust Joe Kapp, Mike Taliefero, Lisa Olsen, Victor Kiam, Billy Sullivan, Nickerson Field, Shaefer stadium). Will always want to watch and hope for the best every year. I think the younger people who became fans around 2000 do not have true understanding about what extended periods (years) of being the worst team is truly like. Being critical of the team and organization is 100% fine anytime (even when not deserved). They make BILLIONS of dollars of the backs of loyal fans like are on this board.
I hate when any one fan on this site tells another fan that they are "not a good fan" because they do not unquestioningly support the team's performance in roster management or strategy. That is such BS arrogance and stupidity.
Any pats fans who takes the time to regularly post on this site...qualifies as a likely loyal and interested fan.

 

[Ring 6]

It's not about disrespecting the game, it's about conserving their bodies and lengthening their careers. Players do it all the time. Again, I don't blame them for doing that. Very understandable.

It's not flat out dog-faking it like Moss did at the end, but it's definitely there. Just slight enough they can't be called out by coaching.

One of the things I really miss about Brady is the immense pride he took in never throwing hospital balls; he was always protecting his receivers.

Mac is nowhere near mastering that trait.

They are “purposely run wrong, easy out routes, or feign confusion, anything to keep their bodies out of harm's way.” just slightly enough that the coaches won’t notice but you notice?
You are full of crap.

 

[Ivan]

You called the Boss man an *******??
Damn you should be called Guts

No. I have never called Ian an *******. He has however had many occasions to call me one. I’m fortunate that he’s a tolerant person.

 

[sb1]

No. I have never called Ian an *******. He has however had many occasions to call me one. I’m fortunate that he’s a tolerant person.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Team Bill’s pseudo analyst has jumped ship as expected. Where is the Minister of Propaganda these days?

BiLL HaS a pLaN!!!

 

[NCPATSFAN1971]

I too enjoy PatFanKen's Posts. He is a good writer and I hope is absence is only temporary.

Normally, I don't post much but try to read most of this site almost everyday. I have mixed emotions about the same old arguments going on and on. On one hand, they can be boring as hell and on the other hand, during the off season when there's absolutely nothing else to talk about they can be OK for short periods of time. These arguments are kind of like coming up on an accident on the highway and even though I don't really want to see it, I can find it hard to take my eyes off of it. But fortunately, like the BB vs TB arguments, I only have to look at them for a short period of time.

Speaking of these forever arguments, I the first post I made on this site was a mistake by taking the side of one of the posters I knew from another site. As a "new kid on the block" my post turned into a ****storm with a couple of people who came after me with a passion. However, I am extremely grateful to have found the handy "Ignore" Button that Ian has provided. LOL

 

[Thelonious]

I don’t know of anyone who thinks this team is any good. That doesn’t mean however that there aren’t parts worth keeping. The defense,, were it paired with a decent offense, is clearly playoff caliber, and that’s even without Judon and Gonzalez. There are a few Ol worth keeping, Stevenson and Elliott are worth keeping, for now at least, and I like Demario Douglas, and would try to find out if Thornton can play with a real WB, especially since he costs next to nothing. That said the team is unwatchable, and Belichick bears full responsibility for that. I would take personnel away from him, and let him walk if he doesn’t agree to it.

That is what I advocated, even in preseason: that we tell Bill he may continue as HC, but not as GM, an offer which I doubted Bill would accept, in all honesty. The controlling fact in all this, in my mind, is Bill's complete failure as GM. I thought at the time that he was still a valuable and effective HC. At this point in the season, I am beginning to have my doubts on this score, frankly. In my eyes, he's shown decline in this area as well. The game planning, in-game adjustments, unaccountably random manner in which starters are chosen, the weirdly random level of punishment for mistakes, the very questionable coaching decisions, and so on all argue for a clear decline in Bill the HC. So the net is that he is failed as a GM and failing as HC. While I do not believe his decline as HC yet warrants his being fired from that job, I do understand that argument, and his decline certainly makes the downside of the original offer under which we would lose Bill as HC far less daunting. I am, that is, willing to countenance a further trial of Bill's HC abilities, but I would absolutely not be open to his continuing to act as GM nor, frankly, would I accept his having any significant role in roster building beyond whatever input a new GM might choose to ask of Bill th HC. The weight which this GM would give to Bill's input would be entirely at the GM's discretion. I think, to put it another way, that we need a "strong GM" setup, whoever is the new coach, Bill included. The Krafts should already, right now, be doing the preliminary work to hire a new GM, given that we certainly do not want player acquisition to remain - from right now going forward - a matter in which Bill has any other than a weak advisory role.

The present iteration of the Pats is dead. Apparently, we can't hold the funeral until some sort quorum of fans here is willing to face this fact. That's unfortunate but not surprising, given all that Bill has done for us over the years, but that does not affect the fact that major changes are obviously needed, particularly up toward the top of the management structure. If that means losing Bill as both GM and HC, I find that entirely justified and acceptable, given where he is in the arc of his career and abilities.

 

[sturmrider]

I agree with most of this, but I disagree that sucking doesn’t make them interesting. To me one of the least interesting seasons was 18-1, where I was turning games off at the half because they were blowing teams out so badly that it wasn’t interesting to watch. Whereas their early Dynasty years,, especially the 2001 and 2003 seasons, were as compelling as it gets. I felt the same way about 2014 season, and really wish the threads from that season could be reopened and discussed again, because half of this board quit on them completely, and wanted both Brady and Belichick, as well as most of the roster gone, but that season, ending with Butler’s interception was one of my favorite season’s of all time.

I guess the distinction I’m making here is between interesting, in terms of what they need to do to become a great franchise again, and watchable, which they aren’t, except in terms of figuring out who needs to stay and who needs to go. The product on the field simply sucks, period, There is just no way around that. . And Belichick, who deserves to share credit for their Dynasty years, gets the blame, as that’s what goes with wanting complete control of the franchise. And while I have always defended him for creating the greatest Dynasty in NFL history, I think he is responsible for them sucking, because like the Dynasty, he chose the coaches, he chose the players, and he is the one deciding who plays and who doesn’t, who stays and who goes, and their game plans every week.

At this point the only thing that matters is the future of the franchise. Not who deserves what, or who was right or wrong, but where do they go from here. And as far as this forum goes I think Ken is a valuable voice with valuable iinput, and I hope he comes around to looking at the team from that perspective, as opposed to the weekly autopsy on their play that day. My basic take on this is that Kraft should now do what Belichick has always claimed is his only priority, and do what’s best for the franchise, which is to take all personnel decisions away from Belichick, except who plays that week and who doesn’t. Belichick can argue with that and say that is not their deal, to which Kraft can give him the option of staying on as coach, or resigning. There are many here who want him fired, and that’s understandable, but my opinion is that he’s still a great coach, but his failure as GM over the past 4 years means it’s time for someone else, or others, to take on those responsibilities.

This season is done, clearly, so I’m doing something I haven’t done since the HughMillenating season and rooting for the first pick of the Draft. And although I’m generally a best player available guy I think this is the exception, They have the worst QB room in the league, and I am taking the best QB available, and if they dont get the one they want I would double up, trade up, and take another one with their second pick. They have to fix this problem or nothing else they do will matter, because you can’t win if your QB sucks.

So, to get back to the original topic, I’m glad to hear that Ken is apparently ok, even if he’s in a drunken stupor, and gambling away his life savings. And I hope he’s able to ignore the assholes, who were toxic when they were great, and are even more insufferable now. Ken has great football knowledge, and his input on who should stay and who should go is very valuable to this board. There’s no real need to dwell on the weekly X’s and O’s right now, the simple phrase “that sucked” pretty much covers it, but evaluating the coaches, units, and personnel, with the purpose of figuring out what decisions need to be made to get to where they want to go is a very interesting discussion, and one I’m sure Ken will want to be involved in. How you build a great team has always been the most interesting aspect of football for me, that’s why I have always loved the Draft. And this year I hope Ian decides to allow draft talk in the Patriots Forum, as that, as well as free agency, will be the most interesting topics going forward. I understand why he has kept it separated in the past, as it would interfere with the current season, but given that there is nothing constructive to discuss about this season right now, it might actually bring something positive to discuss in the coming months.

And Ken, I hope I kept that short enough for you?

I agree with almost everything you said Ivan, I have only one slight change I would make if the quarterback is not there for them when it comes that time instead of trading up and giving away draft capital I would rather they take the best OT available or WR. This is more a plan for the future they will have to draft a developmental qb later and get a vet, but prepare for next year trying to get a better qb.

Protecting the qb and giving him weapons is as important as he is and I agree the qb room has to be remade, but so does the offensive line and wide receivers.

I think your post was spot on though people aren't looking at the future they want it now having followed them from their inception I can wait hopefully for another turn around.

 

[sturmrider]

I miss patfanken as well his writeups were some of the most insightful I have seen on the team in a long while and they make the so called sports journalists look like a joke, but I guess they always want the big splash instead of real info.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I miss patfanken as well his writeups were some of the most insightful I have seen on the team in a long while and they make the so called sports journalists look like a joke, but I guess they always want the big splash instead of real info.

Yeah most of the journalists are bound by facts and accuracy rather than spin and goalpost moving.

 

[Ivan]

I agree with almost everything you said Ivan, I have only one slight change I would make if the quarterback is not there for them when it comes that time instead of trading up and giving away draft capital I would rather they take the best OT available or WR. This is more a plan for the future they will have to draft a developmental qb later and get a vet, but prepare for next year trying to get a better qb.

Protecting the qb and giving him weapons is as important as he is and I agree the qb room has to be remade, but so does the offensive line and wide receivers.

I think your post was spot on though people aren't looking at the future they want it now having followed them from their inception I can wait hopefully for another turn around.

M problem with this is that it is extremely rare for them to have as high a pick as they will have this year, so the price they would have to pay to move will be exponentially higher down the road. And with a defense this good I doubt they will be back to a to 5 pick for a while.