PATRIOTS NEWS Parcells going in Patriots HoF

[JayNM]

Al Davis took the opposite approach, standing up for himself and his team, rightfully suing the NFL many times. He was a prick, but his players appreciated him and felt entirely supported by him (including being fairly paid).

Robert genuinely has always wanted to win, but he's never been able to get out of his own milquetoast sense of decorum way. The league eternally ****s all over him because they know he'll never stand up for himself and his team, beyond passing references to facts and amicus briefs and public demands for an apology that if it ever came (it won't) would be fake and meaningless. He's earned the nickname which I think we coined right here on Patsfans? You know, "BB"

Only didnt follow the end. BB has always been Bill Bellichick for me

And him "genuinely" trying to win is literally the bare minimum for any team/team ownwe

 

[RobertWeathers]

I remember when Kevin Mannix, who covered the Patriots for the Boston Herald, called Parcells "a pantload of a coach."

Mannix...."The King of Curmudgeon"

 

[RobertWeathers]

Na

 

[Pape]

Too bad its not clear to everybody.

a lot of peoples feelings about Kraft were formed in a different era... before he took over the team, things were really on rocky ground... the Sullivan family finances went south in '84... hell their issues within the ownership group stretch back as far as '74 when Billy Sullivan was ousted as the teams president for two years... the Sullivans were always skating by, never really were able to capitalize on the successes of the team on a financial level to create stability within the franchise itself... it lead to a lot of ups and downs, good years, and bad... but the Jackson Victory tour killed them, though it took a few years for the demise of the Sullivan ownership group to materialize... Kaim took over, who was a kook... he flamed out, and was replaced by Orthwein, who really did want to move the team to St Louis...

Kraft was a local guy who played hardball, became a hometown hero who really did save football in New England... and then there were unprecedented levels of success after he took over... the Parcells situation was fugly, but the team found its stride under BB, and all the while the Kraft legend grew... it can be difficult to bash a guy who lead the team out of the dark days, helping form the greatest Dynasty ever in the modern day NFL... there were faux pas along the way, but really, he had built up a tremendous reserve of good will over the years... the relationship has been strained on some level since the late 2010's (or earlier if you are so inclined to believe so, i won't argue that point) no doubt, but it can be hard to turn a hero into a villain after 30 years of successes...

my two cents, ymmv

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

The reason why the PC era is never talked about is two- (or three) fold...

one he was completely overshadowed by Tuna in new york... his best season, 1997, was spent howling about Parcells... that continued for the next few years... the betrayal, the jete posting a winning record in his first year there, followed by the poison pill contract, followed by the jete winning the division... people were gnashing their teeth about the whole scenario... Carroll was second fiddle to Parcells even though BP was no longer here... it was the topic du jour for three years running... And this thread is a testament to just how deep the hate for Parcells ran, and still runs to this day

secondly, Pete's teams were blah, kinda like having a discussion about white bread... there was no hook or excitement surrounding those teams... the best thing that did come out of the Carroll era was robert edwards, and he lasted just one season...

and his third year, the Pats had lost their edge.., it was a soft football team that basically wasn't bad, but they did nothing well either... just middle of the pack meh... the afce was a five team division back then (three divisions - east, central, west)... the Pats went from first to worst in the East under Carroll... There was nothing good to talk about, to shift to conversation away from the tuna...

Pete wasn't really ready to be a head coach then... did not know how/wasn't allowed to shape the team he wanted to carry out his vision... he would learn those lessons at USC, and execute his vision in Seattle years later... but in New England, he was being lead around on a leash instead of leading when it came to team building...

For all the success we've had with Kraft as the owner...and we're only here because he's the owner... there sure has been a ton to gnash our teeth about.

Bob doesn't directly address anything. Discretion and not knee-jerking can very beneficial, but it does not work as a modus operandi. But, I think Bob is always true to his personality. For better, and unfortunately often, for worse.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Only didnt follow the end. BB has always been Bill Bellichick for me

And him "genuinely" trying to win is literally the bare minimum for any team/team ownwe

Bendover Bob

After losing his first playoff game as an owner in Cleveland, he went to the Browns' locker room to congratulate Bill Belichick, whom he'd never met, and shake his hand. Bill said he's never had that happen before or since.

 

[Pape]

For all the success we've had with Kraft as the owner...and we're only here because he's the owner... there sure has been a ton to gnash our teeth about.

Bob doesn't directly address anything. Discretion and not knee-jerking can very beneficial, but it does not work as a modus operandi. But, I think Bob is always true to his personality. For better, and unfortunately often, for worse.

You will brook no argument from me... Bob has done good things, has done bad things... and some very stupid things... What he hasn't done is treat the franchise in a capricious manner like some owners who are best described as absentee nor has he been a malevolent force like a dan snyder...

Robert Kraft has made a sustained investment in growing the patriots as a brand... but sometimes treating it as a brand (ie protecting the brand at all costs) vs as a football team has lead to some really bad decisions on his part...

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

You will brook no argument from me... Bob has done good things, has done bad things... and some very stupid things... What he hasn't done is treat the franchise in a capricious manner like some owners who are best described absentee nor has he been a malevolent force like a dan snyder...

Robert Kraft has made a sustained investment in growing the patriots as a brand... but sometimes treating it as a brand (ie protecting the brand at all costs) vs as a football team has lead to some really bad decisions on his part...

Like, for example,
Why is he smiling? The logo isn't.

 

[Pape]

Like, for example,
Why is he smiling? The logo isn't.

because the mascot is for kids not adults who are obsessed with football? would be my guess...

 

[signbabybrady]

I never understood why the NFL thinks it’s ok for teams to allow interviewing of coaches during the season. I remember what he did and thought that would feel so ****ty as a player on his team. Why would you be motivated to give it your all for a guy trying to leave the same exact team? They should not be able to do interviews AT ALL until the season is over for EVERYONE. I get why people think he should be in. Regardless of how we feel, he DID lay the groundwork for the dynasties. How he exited was the kick in the balls.

Ahhh BP was not allowed to interview. This was tampering.

 

[signbabybrady]

Did I read it right that you started following in 2007 or that's when your opinion changed on Kraft?

I'm not sure why Carroll isn't talked about more on here or those years in general. Even though other teams where a pain in the ass, the consensus was still the Pats were a Super Bowl contending team from 1997-1999.

What Kraft did to Bill during deflate gate and even blaming him in the documentary is when I turned it off. I think I stopped watching after episode 4. Then he's nowhere to be found with Brady's dumb accusations by the Colts. Talk about reaching when there's video proof on YouTube of teams actually doing it. The NFL turning this into a crime scene investigation is just one of the many things that has ruined the game for me.

I've made it clear many times on the forum that I don't like Bob Kraft who has a history of throwing people under the bus for his mistakes and the documentary made him look even worse.

Video proof on YouTube? I don't think I've ever seen this do you have a link?

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

a lot of peoples feelings about Kraft were formed in a different era... before he took over the team, things were really on rocky ground... the Sullivan family finances went south in '84... hell their issues within the ownership group stretch back as far as '74 when Billy Sullivan was ousted as the teams president for two years... the Sullivans were always skating by, never really were able to capitalize on the successes of the team on a financial level to create stability within the franchise itself... it lead to a lot of ups and downs, good years, and bad... but the Jackson Victory tour killed them, though it took a few years for the demise of the Sullivan ownership group to materialize... Kaim took over, who was a kook... he flamed out, and was replaced by Orthwein, who really did want to move the team to St Louis...

Kraft was a local guy who played hardball, became a hometown hero who really did save football in New England... and then there were unprecedented levels of success after he took over... the Parcells situation was fugly, but the team found its stride under BB, and all the while the Kraft legend grew... it can be difficult to bash a guy who lead the team out of the dark days, helping form the greatest Dynasty ever in the modern day NFL... there were faux pas along the way, but really, he had built up a tremendous reserve of good will over the years... the relationship has been strained on some level since the late 2010's (or earlier if you are so inclined to believe so, i won't argue that point) no doubt, but it can be hard to turn a hero into a villain after 30 years of successes...

my two cents, ymmv

The problem: Bob is bound and determined to put the Billy Sullivan clown show era in Orthwein's 'rearview mirror'. It's self-defeating. Yes, he's obsessed with branding. The guy's net worth would be double what it is today if he'd undone the flying elvis makeover shoved down our throats less than a year before he bought the team, even if he didn't spend a penny on marketing. The Patriots already had a world wide following in 1993. They were bad for three (3) years because they let Flutie go.

 

[Pape]

The problem: Bob is bound and determined to put the Billy Sullivan clown show era in Orthwein's 'rearview mirror'. It's self-defeating. Yes, he's obsessed with branding. The guy's net worth would be double what it is today if he'd undone the flying elvis makeover shoved down our throats less than a year before he bought the team, even if he didn't spend a penny on marketing. The Patriots already had a world wide following in 1993. They were bad for three (3) years because they let Flutie go.

Not getting into a flutie debate...I would need to do a lot of reading to bring myself up to speed... it's too far afield for this thread to do so...

As for bob, I don't think he thinks about the Sullivan's at all... Flying Elvis, for good or bad, sold a lot of hats and shirts over the years... So whose to say...

 

[JayNM]

Bendover Bob

After losing his first playoff game as an owner in Cleveland, he went to the Browns' locker room to congratulate Bill Belichick, whom he'd never met, and shake his hand. Bill said he's never had that happen before or since.

Aaah yes, how could I forget

Ill go with BBB for that then, ill let you figure out the other B

a lot of peoples feelings about Kraft were formed in a different era... before he took over the team, things were really on rocky ground... the Sullivan family finances went south in '84... hell their issues within the ownership group stretch back as far as '74 when Billy Sullivan was ousted as the teams president for two years... the Sullivans were always skating by, never really were able to capitalize on the successes of the team on a financial level to create stability within the franchise itself... it lead to a lot of ups and downs, good years, and bad... but the Jackson Victory tour killed them, though it took a few years for the demise of the Sullivan ownership group to materialize... Kaim took over, who was a kook... he flamed out, and was replaced by Orthwein, who really did want to move the team to St Louis...

Kraft was a local guy who played hardball, became a hometown hero who really did save football in New England... and then there were unprecedented levels of success after he took over... the Parcells situation was fugly, but the team found its stride under BB, and all the while the Kraft legend grew... it can be difficult to bash a guy who lead the team out of the dark days, helping form the greatest Dynasty ever in the modern day NFL... there were faux pas along the way, but really, he had built up a tremendous reserve of good will over the years... the relationship has been strained on some level since the late 2010's (or earlier if you are so inclined to believe so, i won't argue that point) no doubt, but it can be hard to turn a hero into a villain after 30 years of successes...

my two cents, ymmv

Great input Pape, thanks man. I can definitely understand your side then. grown-state hero, saving the club, makes sense why there is so much good will towards him by the local fans. Well worth a full 10 cents, friend

I do choose to close out my empathy altogether for him, however, because I AINT GIVE A ****. Sorry, not my state, not my country (Who can relate?), he might as well rot in hell the way i see him manage my club.

Edit

 

[TheRainMaker]

one he was completely overshadowed by Tuna in new york... his best season, 1997, was spent howling about Parcells... that continued for the next few years... the betrayal, the jete posting a winning record in his first year there, followed by the poison pill contract, followed by the jete winning the division... people were gnashing their teeth about the whole scenario... Carroll was second fiddle to Parcells even though BP was no longer here... it was the topic du jour for three years running... And this thread is a testament to just how deep the hate for Parcells ran, and still runs to this day

The Jets were a nuisance in 1997, but the Pats would’ve been the #2 seed had Martin, McGinest and Glenn been healthy. However, the Jets going 12-4 in and sweeping the Pats in 1998 was quite shocking especially with Vinny Testeverde taking over for Glenn Foley. That home loss on MNF was a massive let down. The week 17 loss we knew was coming with Bledsoe out.

secondly, Pete's teams were blah, kinda like having a discussion about white bread... they were not considered to be serious contenders at all... there was no hook or excitement surrounding those teams... the best thing that did come out of the Carroll era was robert edwards, and he lasted just one season...

1997-1999 they were hyped up as Super Bowl contenders, but just below the Broncos. I’m surprised you didn’t like those teams as they were ahead of its time with the amount of swag on defense. However, it was funny at times with players like Milloy celebrating making a tackle 20 yards downfield or Canty dancing around after forcing a fumble while others were fighting for the ball.

and his third year, the Pats had lost their edge.., it was a soft football team that basically wasn't bad, but they did nothing well either... just middle of the pack meh... the afce was a five team division back then (three divisions - east, central, west)... the Pats went from first to worst in the East under Carroll... There was nothing good to talk about, to shift to conversation away from the tuna...

Fans and media overhyped them in 1999 when they went 6-2 at the halfway point. Their passing game was among the best, but we ignored their terrible OL and running game, and the fact they barely beat the Jets with a former Pats punter playing QB. The MNF loss to the Jets with a former Pats special teamer now backup QB led them to victory. I think that embarrassing loss was the beginning of the end for Carroll.

Pete wasn't really ready to be a head coach then... did not know how/wasn't allowed to shape the team he wanted to carry out his vision... he would learn those lessons at USC, and execute his vision in Seattle years later... but in New England, he was being lead around on a leash instead of leading when it came to team building...

I liked Carroll a lot, but injuries, bad drafts, management ignoring his warnings that Martin was going to leave and the competition was fierce were the reasons for his downfall. After the Martin fiasco, he decided he would have full control on his job.

I was excited when he went to USC and he didn’t disappoint. He was very well liked in LA and we treated them like an NFL team.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Following the Patriots at all in 2007. I started watching football in general the year before (2006) with the Bears vs Colts the game that made me realize the game was awesome

I havent watched this documentary nor will I ever. Save my nostalgia for my own memories, not a well-edited version of it. I do appreciate your comments regarding Carrol and what was said there, though, for real

Kraft, and other well-positioned billionaires, have... well... billions of ways to get out of bad situations. They can and will buy whoever is possible, when the time is right. Its telling, to me at least, that Kraft is only on the news to "correct" the boat, bc he causes the holes on the low.

He's a *****, at best. Too bad its not clear to everybody.

The early dynasty years (2001-2004) were my favorite because the Pats were still an unknown and the competition was better. But, the 90’s in general was my favorite era of football. Even though the rule changes went into effect in 2004, it didn’t really take effect until sometime in the 2010’s to what we have today. 2024 is worst year of football for the league in general I’ve ever seen.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The early dynasty years (2001-2004) were my favorite because the Pats were still an unknown and the competition was better. But, the 90’s in general was my favorite era of football. Even though the rule changes went into effect in 2004, it didn’t really take effect until sometime in the 2010’s to what we have today. 2024 is worst year of football for the league in general I’ve ever seen.

Agree on all but not sure the competition was better.

Some years had easy paths, some hard ones.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Not getting into a flutie debate...I would need to do a lot of reading to bring myself up to speed... it's too far afield for this thread to do so...

As for bob, I don't think he thinks about the Sullivan's at all... Flying Elvis, for good or bad, sold a lot of hats and shirts over the years... So whose to say...

Yeah the Sullivan thing is huge, seminal, defining for Bob. Season ticket holder saying, "Someday if I own this team I'll do it right!" Gotta hand it to him. Bought the stadium lease at auction when no one expected it.

What makes Bob vulnerable is he's so emotional about it. That's admirable, and human.

Doesn't stop me and us from being totally pissed at his wrong decisions.

 

[signbabybrady]

The early dynasty years (2001-2004) were my favorite because the Pats were still an unknown and the competition was better. But, the 90’s in general was my favorite era of football. Even though the rule changes went into effect in 2004, it didn’t really take effect until sometime in the 2010’s to what we have today. 2024 is worst year of football for the league in general I’ve ever seen.

I Think it was actually 05 or 06 that Polian got his rule change but that was just one change. What really ruined everything were the several changes that would follow. Any one of these alone probably would have been OK but cumulatively they are brutal.

Emphasis on illegal contact down field was the Polian change.

Not allowing players to lunge low at QBs in the pocket. 'Brady rule' important to note Brady nor no one in our organization advocated for it but it was implemented following season after Pollards Dirty hit on Brady.

Changing the rules for hitting players in the head as a fallout to the Concussion lawsuits.

Protecting defenseless receivers too.

I'm sure there were some other things I'm not thinking of but these are the 4 that stand out to me.

I get the Brady rule and concussion rules. As far as concussion goes that was absolutely necessary we couldn't keep ignoring it. The Brady rule also probably should stay I mean we don't want to watch a product full of backup QBs so protect them. Protecting the receivers I sit on the fence as they probably deserve some protection too in post concussion world but one could argue they can protect themselves by play calls and avoiding the Ray Lewis's over the middle.

Anyway there is no going back on the health rules.

However The illegal contact stuff should be tweaked back to the old ways as a way of trying to balance the scales as combined these rules all add a very unbalanced skew to the offense.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Video proof on YouTube? I don't think I've ever seen this do you have a link?

Funny thing about the internet is that you see things, but then when you go back to find them it suddenly disappears like it ever happened. I remember seeing on youtube the Panthers warming up balls on the sidelines. This is the closest I could get.

NFL aware of game ball incident during Panthers-Vikings

As the Vikings and Panthers dealt with freezing temperatures, Fox cameras showed sideline attendants using heaters to warm up game balls.

www.espn.com

NFL to remind teams not to warm footballs

I Think it was actually 05 or 06 that Polian got his rule change but that was just one change. What really ruined everything were the several changes that would follow. Any one of these alone probably would have been OK but cumulatively they are brutal.

Emphasis on illegal contact down field was the Polian change.

It was put into effect for the 2004 season. Bruschi talked **** after the Pats beat them twice that year saying something like the rule changes didn't help them after the "idiot kicker" said the Pats were "ripe for the picking". Great rivalry that I miss.

Not allowing players to lunge low at QBs in the pocket. 'Brady rule' important to note Brady nor no one in our organization advocated for it but it was implemented following season after Pollards Dirty hit on Brady.

It started with Carson Palmer, but I saw that coming a mile away after it happened to Brady. Injuries like that was bad for the game and made the season unwatchable. The league in 2008 was one of the worst seasons I've ever seen.

The other rules you listed has contributed to the game being ruined.