OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

A lot of talk about Brady's legacy enhancement with the SB55 win, and deservedly so. That's worthy of a thread itself.

What about Gronkowski? Does this recent Super Bowl win separate him further from other all-time great TEs? I think Gronk was already the greatest TE of all-time, but it was a pretty challenging argument. I have the stats to back up all the efficiency and value, but for the long-term, cumulative stuff, Gonzalez had a really big advantage.

But I think this SB changes things. Gronkowski now has 4 Super Bowl wins, 2 multiple TD SB games, 5 TDs total, and came up with the biggest play in SB53. In the postseason, he now has 14 touchdowns, second only to Rice and way ahead of the other TEs.

Here's something else that's remarkable: Gronkowski is 16-4 in the postseason. One loss was his rookie year; one loss he played through a severe injury in the SB vs. the Giants; one loss was despite a herculean effort against Denver where he made two insanely clutch catches in do-or-die situations; one loss was against the Eagles where he had arguably the greatest game by a TE in Super Bowl history. The other 16 games were all wins.

Gonzalez's accomplishments in the regular season are impressive, even putting aside my extreme bias that he's really just a big wide receiver. But his teams went 1-6 in the postseason. Football is a team game and a tight end can't win by himself, but 1-6? That puts quite a limit on how impactful you are on the field.

I think Gronkowski is obviously the better tight end, but now, even if you're just looking at the two on paper and without regard to Gronk's enormous impact as a blocker, he leads (or maybe laps is the better word) Gonzalez in the postseason even more than Gonzalez leads him the regular season.

 

[amfootball]

A lot of talk about Brady's legacy enhancement with the SB55 win, and deservedly so. That's worthy of a thread itself.

What about Gronkowski? Does this recent Super Bowl win separate him further from other all-time great TEs? I think Gronk was already the greatest TE of all-time, but it was a pretty challenging argument. I have the stats to back up all the efficiency and value, but for the long-term, cumulative stuff, Gonzalez had a really big advantage.

But I think this SB changes things. Gronkowski now has 4 Super Bowl wins, 2 multiple TD SB games, 5 TDs total, and came up with the biggest play in SB53. In the postseason, he now has 14 touchdowns, second only to Rice and way ahead of the other TEs.

Here's something else that's remarkable: Gronkowski is 16-4 in the postseason. One loss was his rookie year; one loss he played through a severe injury in the SB vs. the Giants; one loss was despite a herculean effort against Denver where he made two insanely clutch catches in do-or-die situations; one loss was against the Eagles where he had arguably the greatest game by a TE in Super Bowl history. The other 16 games were all wins.

Gonzalez's accomplishments in the regular season are impressive, even putting aside my extreme bias that he's really just a big wide receiver. But his teams went 1-6 in the postseason. Football is a team game and a tight end can't win by himself, but 1-6? That puts quite a limit on how impactful you are on the field.

I think Gronkowski is obviously the better tight end, but now, even if you're just looking at the two on paper and without regard to Gronk's enormous impact as a blocker, he leads (or maybe laps is the better word) Gonzalez in the postseason even more than Gonzalez leads him the regular season.

I don't disagree with this but having Brady your entire career really skews things in Gronks favor especially post-season success. Who were Gonzalez's Qbs?

 

[Lansdowne]

I don't disagree with this but having Brady your entire career really skews things in Gronks favor especially post-season success. Who were Gonzalez's Qbs?

It does, but one can also argue that Gronk was the single most important player in Brady’s career. Gronk gave Brady’s career new life and helped him separate from the rest of the players in the GOAT discussion. 28 passing touchdowns in an increasingly quarterback-friendly league was Brady’s ceiling until two of some of the best players in NFL history, Moss and Gronk, entered his life. Heck, one only needs to look at the last two seasons to see what Brady looks like when we has elite receiving options versus when he doesn’t. And Evans is one of the best receivers of his generation, one who has always put up amazing numbers even with much worse quarterbacks throwing to him.

Most believe Rice to be the greatest wide receiver of all-time. Would he still be that if he didn’t have three MVP quarterbacks in Montana, Young, and Gannon for the majority of his career? Or was he the difference in their legacies? That’s where it’s tricky. Fair to say it worked both ways. We’ll never know how great Gronk’s career would’ve been without Brady, but we also can’t be sure that Brady wins another 4 rings without Gronk.

Edit - I knew most of these off-hand but wanted to look up the full list of guys Gonzalez had for his career. They include Gannon, Grbac, Trent Green, Damon Huard, Tyler Thigpen, and Matt Ryan. A wide range of skill level and he performed at a consistently elite level for all of them.

 

[gobesmug]

Yes, you were saying that Gronk was the third string TE. It's inherent in your posts on the position. And, yes, you proved you were trolling.

No you couldn't be more wrong.

I already said Gronk himself was not a luxury, and admitted my initial comment was misleading. having Brate/OJ as the third string TE was.

Gronk was an immediate upgrade over both OJ and Brate. No one is saying otherwise.

Again, many people expected Brate or OJ to be traded in the package to get Gronk. Why? Because having 3 TEs, that are starter quality or better is a luxury.

You are creating a false narrative now.

 

[IllegalContact]

No you couldn't be more wrong.

I already said Gronk himself was not a luxury, and admitted my initial comment was misleading. having Brate/OJ as the third string TE was.

Gronk was an immediate upgrade over both OJ and Brate. No one is saying otherwise.

Again, many people expected Brate or OJ to be traded in the package to get Gronk. Why? Because having 3 TEs, that are starter quality or better is a luxury.

You are creating a false narrative now.

Only now?

 

[Deus Irae]

No you couldn't be more wrong.

I already said Gronk himself was not a luxury, and admitted my initial comment was misleading. having Brate/OJ as the third string TE was.

Gronk was an immediate upgrade over both OJ and Brate. No one is saying otherwise.

Again, many people expected Brate or OJ to be traded in the package to get Gronk. Why? Because having 3 TEs, that are starter quality or better is a luxury.

You are creating a false narrative now.

No, I'm not. As you noted, you conceded your initial comment was misleading. But you've continued with the same claim line, and you continue to ignore both the injury and the "Gronk's done" aspects of the situation. You're posting nonsense, and acting as if calling you out on the nonsense is somehow insulting you.


And who expected Brate or OJ to be traded to get Gronk?

 

[Pats1971]

The "luxury at TE" angle is just another ridiculous take being floated.


Patriots fans 2019: "It's good that Gronk retired. He was done anyway, and this way he can still live his life".
Patriots fans, post-Tampa Bay SB win: "I mean, the Bucs were so loaded that they even had Gronk! What an obvious luxury move to get a quality player like that!".
Reality: Gronk was in for 75% of the Bucs snaps in 2020, and was playing the most snaps of all the TEs even before Howard got injuried. In other words, far from being just a luxury, Gronk was the Bucs TE1, from the first game on.


Gronk:




Howard:




Brate

It does, but one can also argue that Gronk was the single most important player in Brady’s career. Gronk gave Brady’s career new life and helped him separate from the rest of the players in the GOAT discussion. 28 passing touchdowns in an increasingly quarterback-friendly league was Brady’s ceiling until two of some of the best players in NFL history, Moss and Gronk, entered his life. Heck, one only needs to look at the last two seasons to see what Brady looks like when we has elite receiving options versus when he doesn’t. And Evans is one of the best receivers of his generation, one who has always put up amazing numbers even with much worse quarterbacks throwing to him.

Most believe Rice to be the greatest wide receiver of all-time. Would he still be that if he didn’t have three MVP quarterbacks in Montana, Young, and Gannon for the majority of his career? Or was he the difference in their legacies? That’s where it’s tricky. Fair to say it worked both ways. We’ll never know how great Gronk’s career would’ve been without Brady, but we also can’t be sure that Brady wins another 4 rings without Gronk.

Edit - I knew most of these off-hand but wanted to look up the full list of guys Gonzalez had for his career. They include Gannon, Grbac, Trent Green, Damon Huard, Tyler Thigpen, and Matt Ryan. A wide range of skill level and he performed at a consistently elite level for all of them.

Brady had 50 td's in 2007. That was 3 years before Gronk. 28 td's in 2001-2004 was considered high, in fact Brady lead the league in TD passes in 2002 with 28. The entire Atlanta game in which they came back from 28-3? No gronk. Brady would be just fine without Gronk.

 

[Deus Irae]

Brady had 50 td's in 2007. That was 3 years before Gronk. 28 td's in 2001-2004 was considered high, in fact Brady lead the league in TD passes in 2002 with 28. The entire Atlanta game in which they came back from 28-3? No gronk. Brady would be just fine without Gronk.

Not sure why my quote was tagged for this...

 

[amfootball]

I have a question for everyone - was Brady winning with Tampa more impactful to his overall legacy than the 28-3 comeback?
Someone asked me that today and I had to really think. I think Tampa is more impactful only because all of his other accomplishments were always going to be rolled up to Bill even 28-3. But man, that comeback is historic on so many levels and really did cement him at the time as the undisputed GOAT.

 

[Pats1971]

Not sure why my quote was tagged for this...

Not sure why either, it tagged both of them. Might have been my fault although not sure what I did. My apologies.

 

[Pats1971]

I have a question for everyone - was Brady winning with Tampa more impactful to his overall legacy than the 28-3 comeback?
Someone asked me that today and I had to really think. I think Tampa is more impactful only because all of his other accomplishments were always going to be rolled up to Bill even 28-3. But man, that comeback is historic on so many levels and really did cement him at the time as the undisputed GOAT.

To me Brady's legacy is set, anything that happened after he won his 4th title basically is just adding on. I never really got the help the legacy or hurt the legacy thing. If you win win 6 titles and then not make the playoffs that should not hurt your legacy. I think all the tampa thing does is make it harder for some people who hate Brady to have excuses for his success.

 

[Deus Irae]

Not sure why either, it tagged both of them. Might have been my fault although not sure what I did. My apologies.

No worries. I just wasn't sure if I was missing something.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I don't disagree with this but having Brady your entire career really skews things in Gronks favor especially post-season success. Who were Gonzalez's Qbs?

Trent Green was primarily his QB in Kansas City, though for a few years he had guys like Rich Gannon, Elvis Grbac and Damon Huard. Matt Ryan was his QB in Atlanta.

 

[gobesmug]

No, I'm not. As you noted, you conceded your initial comment was misleading. But you've continued with the same claim line, and you continue to ignore the both the injury and the "Gronk's done" aspects of the situation. You're posting nonsense, and acting as if calling you out on the nonsense is somehow insulting you.


And who expected Brate or OJ to be traded to get Gronk?

Lots of people. It was discussed here, and discussed on Bucs boards. Fans were debating if they wanted OJ or Brate gone/acquired.

People thought it was a foregone conclusion that getting Gronk meant one of OJ or Brate is gone.

Pats fans were hoping for Brate, who would have been a major upgrade over the trash last year. Or they lamented that they should have taken OJ with the 2nd Rd pick instead of Sanu, and now we would finally get OJ.

Heck a lot Bucs fans still think that OJ will be cut or Brate asked to take a paycut or get cut.

Having Brate and Howard is great to backup and compliment Gronk. It's only attainable because the Bucs have a lot of talented players still on rookie deals.

I would never disagree that it is great to have both Brate and OJ. Never once implied that didn't have importance. Depth is great but it's nearly impossible to deep at every single position. Being deep at a single position is a luxury.

I also never bought into the Gronk is washed up narrative. At worst I thought he was still an elite blocking TE that can catch. But I'm a homer and would still pick Gronk over Kittle or Kelce heading into last season and 2021.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I have a question for everyone - was Brady winning with Tampa more impactful to his overall legacy than the 28-3 comeback?
Someone asked me that today and I had to really think. I think Tampa is more impactful only because all of his other accomplishments were always going to be rolled up to Bill even 28-3. But man, that comeback is historic on so many levels and really did cement him at the time as the undisputed GOAT.

It's tough. Both were impressive.

Here's another question. You can see how defeated he was when the Seahawks got that miracle circus catch and was one yard away from winning the game. Had the Seahawks won and still lost they way the did to the Broncos in 2015, does Brady have any fight left in him down 28-3 against the Falcons?

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Gotta admit I had little respect for HC Bruce and not much respect for DC Bowels except as a blitzing risk taker.
Thought the D was good and was unfairly de-rated because of offensive turnovers. Thought the TE and WR positions were solid.
Looked at the prior QBs stats and figured TFB would be a major improvement and would get them to post season.
After debacles vs Saints & Detroit I was concerned about winning a WC but then noticed how bad the NFC was.

 

[amfootball]

It's tough. Both were impressive.

Here's another question. You can see how defeated he was when the Seahawks got that miracle circus catch and was one yard away from winning the game. Had the Seahawks won and still lost they way the did to the Broncos in 2015, does Brady have any fight left in him down 28-3 against the Falcons?

That is a good one. Tough to say. Losses always motivated Brady. The thing about the Atlanta SB that still stuns me to this day is how much better Atlanta was than us at every position except QB. If I remember correctly both of their post-season wins were blow outs that year. They were faster than us, more physical than us. They had the better game plan on both sides of the ball. I mean when it was 28-3 I remember thinking that getting blown out won't feel terrible because this team is just better than us everywhere. Then the come back. Drive after drive. And the Hightower strip sack. It was like magic. It never should have happened. Even with the terrible play calling by Shanny, they were better but Brady. Brady. Brady.

 

[Deus Irae]

Lots of people. It was discussed here, and discussed on Bucs boards. Fans were debating if they wanted OJ or Brate gone/acquired.

People thought it was a foregone conclusion that getting Gronk meant one of OJ or Brate is gone.

So your contention is based upon silly, random football forum threads that took a stupid idea and ran with it.


That explains a lot.

 

[amfootball]

I am glad Brady is rubbing this in. He should. 7 is unbelievable. He is out from under Bill's draconian style and I could not be happier for him. He should keep taking a bow all off-season.

 

[gobesmug]

So your contention is based upon silly, random football forum threads that took a stupid idea and ran with it.


That explains a lot.

I find fans in forums to be a lot more knowledgeable than people in mainstream media.

Fans actually watch the games and study the roster. Mediots only spew garbage to generate clicks.

It's rare to find a sports journalist writing without an agenda.

I've learned a lot more about strategies and formations on this forum alone, than I've ever learned reading a news outlet.

Obviously you must find value as well, otherwise why spend even a minute here if it's nothing but random, silly, and stupid ideas?