OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[PatsWSB47]

It's hilarious how the anti-Bradyites set an unreasonably high standard for him to be a success, then they turn around and try to convince us 7-9 really isn't so bad....

Not only do they believe it wasnt thay bad, they believe it was a great achievement

 

[JMC00]

But I understand how hard it must have been to pass up on these two absolute generational talents.

So if those other 2 were considered generational talents how come they went in the bottom of the 2nd round?

Why did the Chiefs, Eagles, Colts and Cardinals all pass on Metcalf for other WRs?

 

[SHOWTIME15]

It's hilarious how the anti-Bradyites set an unreasonably high standard for him to be a success, then they turn around and try to convince us 7-9 really isn't so bad....

You want to find a quote where I said 7-9 isn't bad? So now it's unreasonable for Brady to win the SB? I was told that Brady made Bill into a successful coach and that Bill is nothing without him...so let's see what Brady does with all his talent and no Bill.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

It's abundantly clear that all Bill had to do was surround Brady with some talent and this train would've kept moving. The Brady haters harping that last year was Brady's fault was comical then and still is now. Brady's replacements throw for a total of 10 TD's while Brady had more than twice that amount (24 TD's) last year.

Let's say Bill hit on the 2019 draft and Brady now has promising receivers, the next excuse for the Brady haters would be that the defense would hold them back and they wouldn't get many more wins. Go back in time and revisit the 2010-2012 defenses and see how the Pats finished. In fact, the 2010 defense was legendary when Bill had little Kyle Arrington rushing the passer at DE on more than a few occasions. That little f***er literally had his hand in the dirt. That was bizarre and quite embarrassing to say the least. In 2011, Julian Edelman was playing CB.

Brady haters and Bill lovers can't accept that Bill had only ONE objective in 2019 and that was to get help at WR/TE. Bill failed miserably and is using the cap and the "we sold out" excuse that doesn't make any sense as to moving on from Brady. Bill's rule of "moving on from a player a year early than too late" backfired. In fact, Brady had earned the right to stay until he calls it a day.

Oh and this thread......

Bill‘s big mistake was moving on from Brady without immediately going into rebuilding mode. If he felt that it was time to blow it up, that the roster was utterly lacking, that Brady would continue to sour on the team, I get that, but that’s not what happened.

The Patriots let it be known that they weren’t going to waiting around for Brady and leaked to the press that they’d be moving on quickly if they didn’t hear from him. They wanted him to beg them to match an offer. They never embraced his fitness claims and goals and expressed skepticism about his shelf life. Basically they acted incredibly arrogant in their System > Brady mantra, and anyone who denies this is either lying or wasn’t paying attention. They refused to alter their free agency approach and treated Brady like any other schmuck, acting like they held all the cards.

Then a couple of insiders (I think one was Lombardi) intimated that Stidham was going to be plugged in with minimal production lost and they were confident they’d be competitive. They signed their veterans like McCourty and Slater and franchised Thuney. Of course they were trying to compete this year and thought they could.

The Covid excuse is utter BS. No one who opted out is a big enough difference maker. And I heard in August about how Bill was playing 5D chess and would actually have the huge advantage because of the pandemic because he’s smarter than everyone. In the end, all the teams who were predicted to good are good, in a similar pecking order as projected, and Covid didn’t change much at all.

The Patriots just wasted a season because Bill miscalculated on so many things. They not only lost Brady but failed to rebuild in any way. Got a stop gap QB for the league minimum but didn’t trade any assets for draft picks. Didn’t develop any cornerstone young players.

Bill moved on from Brady not because he was trying to rebuild nor out of spite but because he believed that by following his team-building rules and mantras, the team would be better off. What a huge mistake.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I mean even as bad as those drafts were during that 7 year window, had he just replaced two picks in 2019, Brady is probably still here and we’re competing with the Chiefs for the #1 seed this year...

1. Harry -> AJ Brown

2. Williams -> Metcalf

But I understand how hard it must have been to pass up on these two absolute generational talents.

Here's the next argument for Harry which always gives me a good laugh, "but if the Pats didn't take Harry, the 49ers would've". That is the most idiotic logic I've ever heard.

Same thing for Sanu for a 2nd, "but the 49ers would were interested, which was why he commanded a 2nd". The truth is the 49ers backed out when they heard Atlanta wanted a 2nd but, Bill didn't know 9ers immediately turned their attention to Sanders. Bill went for the bluff and Dimetroff got a nice parting gift on a negotiation victory before eventually getting fired.

I loved Metcalf and I couldn't believe he dropped to the Pats, but I did fear he was Chad Jackson 2.0. That couldn't be further from the truth as his work ethic is off the charts, something many teams failed to see.

I'll never get over taking a DB in the 2nd round that was the strongest unit on the team.

 

[Tony2046]

Brady slightly improved his legacy in 2020. (not easy to improve on being the GOAT) Finishing 2nd in TD's, 3rd in yards and having a QBR over 100 at the age of 43 with a team not in the playoffs since 2007 is another notch in his belt. He certainly has a lot of help with the players around him but if he were to somehow lead them far in the playoffs including a possible comeback victory his reputation would be enhanced even more.

Curious of how they will look next season now that there's chemistry and familiarity with the system.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I mean even as bad as those drafts were during that 7 year window, had he just replaced two picks in 2019, Brady is probably still here and we’re competing with the Chiefs for the #1 seed this year...

1. Harry -> AJ Brown

2. Williams -> Metcalf

But I understand how hard it must have been to pass up on these two absolute generational talents.

The WR failures are once again rationalized by the “Belichick would checkmate Kasparov in four moves” line of thinking.

You hear all this talk about how the Patriots offense is so mentally demanding, but look at the guys who have come to NE and thrived immediately with Brady: Randy Moss, Josh Gordon, Wes Welker, Antonio Brown. Seemed like they barely even picked up the playbook and just fit right in. Rob Gronkowski...is he a guy whose thinking skills put him over the top?

It’s almost like athletic ability is a factor here too. Does Brady really, actually favor cerebral players who make it on their guts, grit, lunch pail work ethic, and ability to do advanced geometry while running routes? Does he really now?

I don’t think I’ve seen a single instance of a WR/TE coming to New England, not being “a fit” and then going somewhere else and thriving. Was there ever an instance where they drafted a WR who had the raw skills to succeed but couldn’t grasp the concepts, then went on to have a career somewhere else? I can’t think of one.

It’s a similar story with the “Brady loves midget receivers” stuff or more accurately “the Patriots system plays to Brady’s strengths” stuff. They do? By not having actual elite receivers? Because it seems like outside of a quick slot/inside guy, he’s pretty damn happy throwing to Moss, Mike Evans, Josh Gordon, Gronk and other big tall guys who get downfield.

Maybe for ****s and giggles, they can draft or sign a guy who clearly has the physical skills to succeed and then worry about the learning curve after that? Because these losers they bring in have no chance if they can’t even win physically to begin with.

 

[Guts]

Well he doesn't need Bill apparently, so no excuses

I will concede this, if Belichick had Brady and this Tampa roster, they would easily be 15-1 or even 16-0

 

[Tony2046]

Bill‘s big mistake was moving on from Brady without immediately going into rebuilding mode. If he felt that it was time to blow it up, that the roster was utterly lacking, that Brady would continue to sour on the team, I get that, but that’s not what happened.

The Patriots let it be known that they weren’t going to waiting around for Brady and leaked to the press that they’d be moving on quickly if they didn’t hear from him. They wanted him to beg them to match an offer. They never embraced his fitness claims and goals and expressed skepticism about his shelf life. Basically they acted incredibly arrogant in their System > Brady mantra, and anyone who denies this is either lying or wasn’t paying attention. They refused to alter their free agency approach and treated Brady like any other schmuck, acting like they held all the cards.

Then a couple of insiders (I think one was Lombardi) intimated that Stidham was going to be plugged in with minimal production lost and they were confident they’d be competitive. They signed their veterans like McCourty and Slater and franchised Thuney. Of course they were trying to compete this year and thought they could.

The Covid excuse is utter BS. No one who opted out is a big enough difference maker. And I heard in August about how Bill was playing 5D chess and would actually have the huge advantage because of the pandemic because he’s smarter than everyone. In the end, all the teams who were predicted to good are good, in a similar pecking order as projected, and Covid didn’t change much at all.

The Patriots just wasted a season because Bill miscalculated on so many things. They not only lost Brady but failed to rebuild in any way. Got a stop gap QB for the league minimum but didn’t trade any assets for draft picks. Didn’t develop any cornerstone young players.

Bill moved on from Brady not because he was trying to rebuild but because he believed that by following his team-building rules and mantras, the team would be better off. What a huge mistake.

I mostly agree but I think Covid took away coaching time from the league's best coach. So that definitely hurt.

I also think a lot of young players got some valuable experience that wouldn't be possible during normal season. Uche, Dugger, Chase etc...etc.. because of Covid and opt-outs.

But yes maybe BB mishandled the Brady situation and transition unless he kept Stidham in the background because of Covid for some reason.

 

[PatsWSB47]

You want to find a quote where I said 7-9 isn't bad? So now it's unreasonable for Brady to win the SB? I was told that Brady made Bill into a successful coach and that Bill is nothing without him...so let's see what Brady does with all his talent and no Bill.

So far he threw 40 touchdowns, ran for 3 and made the playoffs with it......and without Bill

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I mostly agree but I think Covid took away coaching time from the league's best coach. So that definitely hurt.

I also think a lot of young players got some valuable experience that wouldn't be possible during normal season. Uche, Dugger, Chase etc...etc.. because of Covid and opt-outs.

But yes maybe BB mishandled the Brady situation and transition unless he kept Stidham in the background because of Covid for some reason.

Sure - you’re right about both points. But at best the young player development is a zero sum game and I don’t even think that. We’re talking about some decent young players here, not guys who look like future all-pros.

Every team has some pretty good young players. Based on where the Patriots are right now as an organization, they don’t have nearly enough of them, and their drafts/ development need to be far exceeding the league average. I doubt there’s many teams in the league with no QB of the future, sub-.500, on a downward trajectory, who have less young assets and draft capital than the Patriots.

You could run through almost every team with a lottery pick in the draft and find a more favorable core to build around.

 

[carmelo15]

It's hilarious how the anti-Bradyites set an unreasonably high standard for him to be a success, then they turn around and try to convince us 7-9 really isn't so bad....

when he signed there they were saying Tampa still wouldn’t be good now they have elite talent. The **** every top QB has elite talent but let’s talk **** when a 43 year old finally gets help

 

[XLIX]

You want to find a quote where I said 7-9 isn't bad? So now it's unreasonable for Brady to win the SB?

Yes. It is unreasonable to set the bar for success so high. Even though Brady made it look easy, winning the Super Bowl is very hard.

I was told that Brady made Bill into a successful coach and that Bill is nothing without him...so let's see what Brady does with all his talent and no Bill.

He may not win the Super Bowl but he sure as hell is doing a lot better than Bill with no Brady.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Yes. It is unreasonable to set the bar for success so high. Even though Brady made it look easy, winning the Super Bowl is very hard.

He may not win the Super Bowl but he sure as hell is doing a lot better than Bill with no Brady.

So now you are backtracking? You are one of the ones who has been thumping your chest about Brady over Bill, so now that Brady is in the postseason let's see how far he can get without Bill. And it's easy to say he's doing better than Bill with all the talent he has at his disposal. If Bill were to coach another team, let's say KC, I'd bet Bill would whoop Brady and it wouldn't even be close.

 

[RicoG]

Bill's rule of "moving on from a player a year early than too late" backfired. In fact, Brady had earned the right to stay until he calls it a day.

Those were almost the exact same words Jonathan and Robert Kraft said.

That's why I was shocked that they backed Bill the GM in not given Brady a multiyear deal. Essentially guaranteeing thay Brady would leave.

Bill the GM wanted to go year by year so he had the option to get rid of Brady a year too early like a Jag. Brady saw the writing on the wall and would have none of it.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Does Brady really, actually favor cerebral players who make it on their guts, grit, lunch pail work ethic, and ability to do advanced geometry while running routes? Does he really now?

Brady does like to have WR's on the same page with him, but the way NE built their WR groups over the years were never by design. Them constantly signing veterans due to draft flameouts proved that.

Rob Gronkowski...is he a guy whose thinking skills put him over the top?

Throw in AH as he was raved about since opening day of training camp and balled out week 1 against Cincy. That was one talented dude.

It’s a similar story with the “Brady loves midget receivers” stuff or more accurately “the Patriots system plays to Brady’s strengths” stuff. They do? By not having actual elite receivers?

This is what's so heartbreaking with Brady. Give him elite talent and you're getting 2007 level production. The offense just wasn't addressed enough after 2007. No QB would ever pass up a 6'3" talented WR over a try hard midget. Anyone that has played QB knows you have to have pinpoint accuracy to throw to those midgets as their catch radius are very small. Take the 2011 Super Bowl throw to Welker as an example. Brady had to have a perfect throw in order for him to catch it. Because the throw wasn't perfect, a WR with another inch or two catches it, game's over.

Imagine had they not drafted Gronk? They probably don't a Super Bowl since 2004.

 

[upstater1]

Brady does like to have WR's on the same page with him, but the way NE built their WR groups over the years were never by design. Them constantly signing veterans due to draft flameouts proved that.

Throw in AH as he was raved about since opening day of training camp and balled out week 1 against Cincy. That was one talented dude.

This is what's so heartbreaking with Brady. Give him elite talent and you're getting 2007 level production. The offense just wasn't addressed enough after 2007. No QB would ever pass up a 6'3" talented WR over a try hard midget. Anyone that has played QB knows you have to have pinpoint accuracy to throw to those midgets as their catch radius are very small. Take the 2011 Super Bowl throw to Welker as an example. Brady had to have a perfect throw in order for him to catch it. Because the throw wasn't perfect, a WR with another inch or two catches it, game's over.

Imagine had they not drafted Gronk? They probably don't a Super Bowl since 2004.

Sometimes people act like Joe Montana wasn't throwing to Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Dwight Clark, Brent Jones, and even Roger Craig caught 508 balls as a running back! Holy cow, talk about loaded.

 

[LuRkeR1978]

‘09 Ravens thrashing. Browns in 2010. 49ers in 2012, which was an ass whipping until they went into prevent. Queefs in 2014 and 2017. Jags, Lions, and Titans in 2018. Ravens in 2019. There are many games during the regular season where Brady’s Pats looked inept. You just want to forget them because it doesn’t fit your narrative.

The Saints game in 09 was also not very fun to watch.

 

[1960Pats]

They ***** slapped the #1 seed though. He’s also had seasons like this with the Patriots. 2018 says hi. All that salt and no pepper to go along with it.

According to Cant Newton today, the Pats were not about Brady because Tom was lucky to be "in the system" for 20 years.

Cant also claims that he was as healthy as he's ever been, including his shoulder and ankle. So much for that excuse from the Cam I Am crowd.

 

[denverpatsfan]

Cant also claims that he was as healthy as he's ever been, including his shoulder and ankle. So much for that excuse from the Cam I Am crowd.

No way he was healthy. Not making excuses since his poor play was multi-tiered. He looked like he was in pain. His throwing motion was off.