OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[carmelo15]

I like how the anti-Brady crowd went from "It's Brady's fault that the supporting cast wasn't great! He froze them out!" and now that it is clear that the supporting cast is terrible it's "Oh well why would anyone think that Brady would do any better!". Meanwhile the offense looks even worse than it did last year and Brady is looking like Brady down in Tampa.

two weeks ago it was Brady can’t do what Cam can with these guys

 

[farn]

haha what you don’t understand the disrespect I’m sure you’re being honest

I really don’t.

 

[sb1]

I really don’t.

If there's any truth to the "feeling disrespected" stuff then all the more reason to be glad Tompa is gone. I'd say most likely it's just Bradyite drool.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

A lot of people in this thread are still working through twenty years of baggage and aren't that interested in looking at the 2020 season except to gain things like validation or vindication. Look at how many posts in this thread are about things that happened in 2019 or before vs 2020, and how many are about 'what if TFB was still on the Pats?'. Well, he ain't, and there's no redo. He plays for Tampa. Doing the 'what if' thing just isn't productive. It's all about willy waving and score settling.

Ours (this is still a NE forum, right?) really is just starting. We're still one of the oldest teams in the league even after TB12 left. We're still carrying lots of cap hits including TB12s that were made hoping to get one more year out of the old run. Cam is IMO on a one year business trip, two years at best.

That's what happens when you're a dynasty, you have a crappy draft position year after year, you gotta take risks on unhealthy guys and hope they can get past injuries. Some times it works (Gronk), some times it does not (Mitchell). The only real ways to do better than your draft position dictates is (a) take chances or (b) get lucky.

It was an interesting game.

At the end of the first quarter, it was GB 10, TB 0, Tampa had two short drives and no scores, GB had two long drives and a TD and a FG.

Then the pick-six happens followed by another INT and it seems pretty clear Rodgers is rattled and off his game.

Tampa to its credit kept the pressure on, played a strong game on both offense and defense, and avoided penalties and picks.

Aikman was right when he said Brady and Gronk were clinical, let's hope TB12 doesn't rely too much on that and gets more players like Grait and Miller more involved.

Hopefully it's a turning point for them and they keep playing at this level or better.

Their next six games are LV (SNF), NYG (MNF), NO (TNF), CAR (Sun 1PM), LAR (MNF), KC (Sun 4PM).

Should be some competitive, exciting games in that sequence, most of them on national TV.

If they play like yesterday they could really pull away from the pack, they have one in the win column over NO already.

Personally I hope the games are more exciting than GB was, it was over at the half.

Congrats to Tampa for keeping the pressure on and having a great game once they had GB and Rodgers on the ropes.

Tampa's secondary has some question marks but may in fact be good. Hard to tell how much of it is from the pass rush and how much is from the coverage.

But...

It seems that this season, there is almost no such thing as a good secondary. The rules shifts (including offensive holding way down, pass interference way up) has a bunch of elite secondaries like Buffalo and New England not looking anything close to elite secondaries. Barring having a 2010s Seahawks group out there, is there even any way to consistently defend a high level passing offense anymore?

Which is why having a front 7 like the Bucs might just be the only thing that works at the moment. Since secondaries are being neutralized and lumped together, whether good or bad, since none of them can really stop much, the front 7 becomes more important. And the Bucs have an absolutely nasty front 7, a slew of pass rushers who can get to the QB fast, and a scheme that's aggressive and well coordinated.

We'll see if their defense can replicate what they did to Rodgers. My guess is they won't be able to put up an elite performance consistently but that they'll be able to causes enough disruption to field a very good overall unit, likely the best of the NFC contenders.

 

[farn]

If there's any truth to the "feeling disrespected" stuff then all the more reason to be glad Tompa is gone. I'd say most likely it's just Bradyite drool.

I mean, BB is usually upfront and doesn’t play games. That is the type of boss I like. Tells you what is expected, teaches you how, doesn’t bash you to the media.

Maybe it’s a generational thing “that I don’t understand”. Brady signed a contract and played well. He decided to move & sign another contract and play well.

In my work, I never get praised & when things go wrong, it’s my fault. I am honouring my contract. If I wish, I can leave and find work elsewhere.

 

[Bill Lee]

Tampa's secondary has some question marks but may in fact be good. Hard to tell how much of it is from the pass rush and how much is from the coverage.

But...

It seems that this season, there is almost no such thing as a good secondary. The rules shifts (including offensive holding way down, pass interference way up) has a bunch of elite secondaries like Buffalo and New England not looking anything close to elite secondaries. Barring having a 2010s Seahawks group out there, is there even any way to consistently defend a high level passing offense anymore?

Which is why having a front 7 like the Bucs might just be the only thing that works at the moment. Since secondaries are being neutralized and lumped together, whether good or bad, since none of them can really stop much, the front 7 becomes more important. And the Bucs have an absolutely nasty front 7, a slew of pass rushers who can get to the QB fast, and a scheme that's aggressive and well coordinated.

We'll see if their defense can replicate what they did to Rodgers. My guess is they won't be able to put up an elite performance consistently but that they'll be able to causes enough disruption to field a very good overall unit, likely the best of the NFC contenders.

All good points. In particular some of the offenses/QBs they have coming up (LV/Carr, LAR/Goff etc) don't seem to handle pressure and 'playing off schedule' very well which bodes well for Tampa. The KC game should be the acid test.

 

[sb1]

All good points. In particular some of the offenses/QBs they have coming up (LV/Carr, LAR/Goff etc) don't seem to handle pressure and 'playing off schedule' very well which bodes well for Tampa. The KC game should be the acid test.

Agreed. That defense was very impressive yesterday. They'll beat KC if they duplicate that effort.

 

[Nehalem]

If you ignore the take the last 4 games, ignoring the first 2 due to Gronk not being used... and extend it to 16 games

Gronk would be on pace for 60 rec for 828 yards, 13.8/rec. Not too bad.

 

[JMC00]

3-1 without Brady in 2016
2-3 without Brady so far in 2020

3 of those loses were sh!tty luck situations for the team

-Brissett had an injured thumb and couldn't throw the ball
-Hoyer starting on 3 days notice/having to fly to the game day of
-Musical chairs OL

Possibly 8-1 with better luck with injuries.

 

[BradytoMosstoGronk]

Erm, I hate to point this out, but the passing game hasn’t been better this season. It’s legitimately gotten worse. So maybe those “scab-like players” were really the problem all along?

2025 NFL Offense Passing Team Stat Leaders - ESPN

ESPN is the place for NFL stats! Find a list of the Offense Passing team stat leaders for the 2025 NFL Regular Season.

www.espn.com

We're bottom 5 in passer rating, 3rd to last in yards, tied with the Giants for least amount of touchdown passes with 3 (7 interceptions to their 6), and the list goes on. Granted, we are a top 3 rush team, which is impressive, but there aren't any statistical gymnastics someone could do to prove this passing offense even comes close to last years. I haven't looked at the stats, but I imagine this will be one, if not the worst passing offenses during BBs tenure.

 

[Kontradiction]

2025 NFL Offense Passing Team Stat Leaders - ESPN

ESPN is the place for NFL stats! Find a list of the Offense Passing team stat leaders for the 2025 NFL Regular Season.

www.espn.com

We're bottom 5 in passer rating, 3rd to last in yards, tied with the Giants for least amount of touchdown passes with 3 (7 interceptions to their 6), and the list goes on. Granted, we are a top 3 rush team, which is impressive, but there aren't any statistical gymnastics someone could do to prove this passing offense even comes close to last years. I haven't looked at the stats, but I imagine this will be one, if not the worst passing offenses during BBs tenure.

It’ll be the worst by an easy margin, assuming they don’t make a trade for an NFL-caliber WR or TE by the deadline. Our only hope is running the ball down other teams’ throats, but you can only get so far being handicapped in this league.

 

[amfootball]

It’ll be the worst by an easy margin, assuming they don’t make a trade for an NFL-caliber WR or TE by the deadline. Our only hope is running the ball down other teams’ throats, but you can only get so far being handicapped in this league.

Our opponents will stack the line like Denver did going forward forcing Cam to win with passing. I think we are in for a long season offensively. I do hope we pull a trade.

 

[JMC00]

It seems that this season, there is almost no such thing as a good secondary. The rules shifts (including offensive holding way down, pass interference way up) has a bunch of elite secondaries like Buffalo and New England not looking anything close to elite secondaries. Barring having a 2010s Seahawks group out there, is there even any way to consistently defend a high level passing offense anymore?

IMO Pats right now are probably as elite as you can get, they've held QBs 4 of the 5 QBs they've face under 250 yards, the 5th QB was Wilson who had 275.

and it's not like they've faced bad QBs

Fitzpatrick (who is having a good season for his standards so far)
Wilson
Carr (on pace to have his best season by a lot so far)
Mahomes
Lock

I know the TDs allowed are higher than you'd want but lets break it down

Fitzpatrick- 0
Wilson- 5 (2 were just perfect throws that beat great coverage)
Carr- 2 (1 came when it was 36-13 with 2 minutes to go in the game)
Mahomes- 2 (1 came after JC Jackson dropped a pick)
Lock- 0

So pretty much all the passing TDs given up so far were to the best 2 QBs in nfl right now Which 1 game was week 2, the defense was still trying to work into form with how the pre-season was and then the other game was when they had to fly 6 hours to a game they were playing that day


They also should have about 4-5 more INTs than they do.

 

[203Pat]

Unless Bill gets to a point where he feels like it is worth more to keep the draft pick(s) since he doesn't think the team has any shot of the post season no matter what he does I feel like he has to trade for someone. Reports are OBJ is frustrated (surprise) maybe pry him away if the Browns just want to cut bait with him. Take a shot at Chark in Jacksonville. See if for some reason they don't want a huge, fast, young, talented, cheap receiver. Maybe the Texans are ready for a fire sale and want to dump Fuller or hell I would even take back Cooks. If we aren't going to be buyers we might as well be sellers at the deadline and dump Gilmore.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Good post...I think Belichick is one of the best coaches ever (along with Walsh and Brown) so this is more about how great Brady is than dumping on Bill. But...even looking at the Patriots after the 5-11 season in 2000.

Belichick was 0-2 without Brady in 2001
10-5 without Brady in 2008 (with a historically great team)
3-1 without Brady in 2016
2-3 without Brady so far in 2020

Which adds up to 15-11 (.577) in the "dynasty era" where this now his team, his drafts, his coaches, etc.

3 of those loses were sh!tty luck situations for the team

-Brissett had an injured thumb and couldn't throw the ball
-Hoyer starting on 3 days notice/having to fly to the game day of
-Musical chairs OL

Possibly 8-1 with better luck with injuries.

You chose two games out of that list of all of Belichick's non-Brady Patriots games but fail to mention:

The entire 2008 sample (15 games) consisted of a team that the previous year was the most dominant the league has ever seen while the 2016 team was arguably the second best team of the Patriots dynasty (2004, 2007, 2016 are the best three) and had Jimmy Garoppolo for the first two games.

If anything the overall sample of Belichick's non-Brady Patriots games is skewed towards the team being stronger than normal when Brady has been out, despite the three isolated games you mentioned.

 

[PatsWSB47]

You are a classless person. To suggest that Jimmy G. doesn't deserve his thread or that I can't have an opinion as a 60-year-old Pats fan. For me, Thank you Brady, for what you did while with the Pats. Bye Bye, Brady, you are gone by your choice, Bye Bye. BTW I did give credit to Brady in the Tampa Bay thread on the Pat's Forum for yesterday's performance. He remembered all the downs, didn't throw an interception and his throws were on target, an excellent day for him, one of his best.

How old are you?

 

[sb1]

Good post...I think Belichick is one of the best coaches ever (along with Walsh and Brown) so this is more about how great Brady is than dumping on Bill. But...even looking at the Patriots after the 5-11 season in 2000.

Belichick was 0-2 without Brady in 2001
10-5 without Brady in 2008 (with a historically great team)
3-1 without Brady in 2016
2-3 without Brady so far in 2020

Which adds up to 15-11 (.577) in the "dynasty era" where this now his team, his drafts, his coaches, etc.


You chose two games out of that list of all of Belichick's non-Brady Patriots games but fail to mention:

The entire 2008 sample (15 games) consisted of a team that the previous year was the most dominant the league has ever seen while the 2016 team was arguably the second best team of the Patriots dynasty (2004, 2007, 2016 are the best three) and had Jimmy Garoppolo for the first two games.

If anything the overall sample of Belichick's non-Brady Patriots games is skewed towards the team being stronger than normal when Brady has been out, despite the three isolated games you mentioned.

Another way to look at the 2008 season is Cassel himself. Started the season as a guy who hadn't started a game since high school who also had a dreadful preseason and was on the verge of being cut... becoming a serviceable to decent QB all on the fly and getting to 11 wins with him. That's in spite of having one of the worst defenses in football that year.

That's talent development and great coaching for you.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Another way to look at the 2008 season is Cassel himself. Started the season as a guy who hadn't started a game since high school who also had a dreadful preseason and was on the verge of being cut... becoming a serviceable to decent QB all on the fly and getting to 11 wins with him. That's in spite of having one of the worst defenses in football that year.

That's talent development and great coaching for you.

That’s a good point.

Belichick didn’t do so well with Bledsoe but kicked ass with Brady; didn’t do so well with Cassel until Cassel came around. Did great with Jimmy G but not so hot with Jacoby.

Brady was off/injured last year and the offense sucked.

It’s such a quarterback driven league. Sure, BB is awesome at building personnel and offensive strategies around the strengths of his QB, but without having a great QB back there, no coach can win consistently.

The Chiefs from 2013-present perfectly illustrate what coaching can do and what it can't do. With the most average QB ever (Alex Smith), they were a very good team. Andy Reid is, in my opinion, the best offensive mind in the NFL (Belichick is the best defensive mind), and they surrounded Smith with great players that played to his strengths. That's as far as Reid could get them. They could have played for 100 seasons with Alex Smith and not won a Super Bowl.

With Patrick Mahomes, they go from being a very solid team to a team that goes down in the history books as significant.

Belichick's dynasty Patriots would be no different with an average QB like Alex Smith - a solid team that doesn't win championships - as opposed to their amazing success with Tom Brady.

 

[Doctor DDS]

I think the rebuild was mainly about the cap situation. BB took some calculated risks last year with Gordon, AB then Sanu and he ultimately got burned. He could have manipulated the cap this year to keep Brady and maybe one of the linebackers and pay the piper in 2021 and/or 2022 but I assume he felt the team still would not have what it takes so it was better to bite the bullet now and rebuild. Hard to lose 3 defensive starters, your HOF QB and some additional depth players and expect to compete for a Super Bowl. Then lose 3 more starters before the season due to COVID opt outs and the team is thinner than it has been in probably 20 years. Cam is clearly not in Brady's class but with a cheap contract he just may be good enough to help them sneak into the playoffs and maybe pull off an upset. Hopefully the kids get some serious experience and with a substantial amount of cap space for next year they can fill in some holes and be re-positioned to be a serious contender as soon as next year. Hard for me to see Brady and Gronk lighting it up for another team but I can understand why all parties did it. .

 

[sb1]

That’s a good point.

Belichick didn’t do so well with Bledsoe but kicked ass with Brady; didn’t do so well with Cassel until Cassel came around. Did great with Jimmy G but not so hot with Jacoby.

Brady was off/injured last year and the offense sucked.

It’s such a quarterback driven league. Sure, BB is awesome at building personnel and offensive strategies around the strengths of his QB, but without having a great QB back there, no coach can win consistently.

Eh, I wouldn't pin Brissett on Bill. He is a third string QB and no business playing in that 16-0 game anyway because of injury.

Bill also picked Brady. That says a lot too. Definitely agree that great QB's can prop up subpar coaches. Rodgers/McCarthy and Manning/Caldwell for example. Give Bill a good QB but not a GOAT, like a Philip Rivers and I'm sure he'd do very well.