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OT: Brady caught in closed Tampa park

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I think the absolute lockdown will be relaxed soon but distancing will be with us for a while. I think it can be managed in restaurants and stores but concerts and sports will be tricky.
'Tricky' is an understatement!

Just imagine 60-80 thousand people crammed into a stadium. Now further imagine a home team player executing an exciting play and 70% of the crowd (home team fans) stand up and fully in unison, start screaming with their mouths wide open spewing 'droplets' into the air.

With this in mind, Gillette, and all other NFL venues, would become your classic Petri dish. Thank you, but no thank you, I'd just as soon watch the game from my couch!

And here's another thought regarding spacing. Imagine if you will, that in every other staggered row of seats, they were to paint every
staggered fourth seat white, and fans were only allowed to sit in the white-painted seats. And it was strictly enforced against spacing violators attempting to sit in non-white seats. And not only by security personnel, but also by other fans observing the spacing protocol. There'd be more action than a MMA presentation.
 
And I especially don't know why Mike Florio of all people feels the need to talk down to us all about it. Not the first time I've seen him do it.
That’s the type of sanctimonious, constantly-virtue-signaling mediot Florio is.

He led the charge to postpone free agency not because free agency is dangerous (it can all be done remotely) but because of the “optics” of the situation. Meanwhile, in the real world, free agency arrived and carried the usual amount of discussion.
 
That study hasn't been peer-reviewed. I'd be careful interpreting the results, because they don't make a ton of sense and there were some issues with weighting the sample and the statistical methods involved. In raw numbers, only 50 out of the 3,000 people in the Stanford study had positive antibody tests (1.6% of the sample). On top of that, the antibody testing kits they used are also brand new and were rolled out quickly from China and were not approved by China's FDA equivalent, so they may not even work. Other serological testing has been all over the place, from 1% of a Scottish sample to 15% of a single German town where they tested everyone and, again, all using kits that haven't been thoroughly vetted.
Different populations throughout the world have different numbers. For example, a higher percentage of people in NYC would test positive for antibodies than, say, Laramie WY.

But there is one thing all these antibody tests are showing no matter where they are performed: the *true* number of people who have had Covid-19 is magnitudes greater than the official number. By “magnitudes,” I’m talking anywhere from 20 times to 200 times.
 
Actually, yes, it is. It's called flattening the curve... we did it... and now it's time to get back out there.

Also, that virus has infected way more people than we thought... 28 to 55 times more, as @Ross12 said, and guess what... they're not presenting with symptoms... so the mortality rate is way lower than we thought too. Win win.

______

Just saying my piece...




...before this thread inevitably implodes.

I FREAKIN" LOVE THIS GIF!!! I was so happy when they blew that awful stadium up. I'm gonna sit and watch it for the next 10 minutes. Thanks for starting my day off with a BANG..LOL.
 
Different populations throughout the world have different numbers. For example, a higher percentage of people in NYC would test positive for antibodies than, say, Laramie WY.

But there is one thing all these antibody tests are showing no matter where they are performed: the *true* number of people who have had Covid-19 is magnitudes greater than the official number. By “magnitudes,” I’m talking anywhere from 20 times to 200 times.

...assuming the test kits being used for these antibody tests are accurate and specific. If they are not, the entire "true number" you're claiming could be false positives.
 
...assuming the test kits being used for these antibody tests are accurate and specific. If they are not, the entire "true number" you're claiming could be false positives.
1) That's why the range is so large: To adjust for bad tests and other errors in statistical sampling. But even the low ends of the estimated ranges are many, many magnitudes higher than the official tallies

2) As a general rule in this type of testing, you are far, far more likely to have false negatives than false positives. The Stanford researchers confirmed this when they did their own validation.
 
1) That's why the range is so large: To adjust for bad tests and other errors in statistical sampling. But even the low ends of the estimated ranges are many, many magnitudes higher than the official tallies

2) As a general rule in this type of testing, you are far, far more likely to have false negatives than false positives. The Stanford researchers confirmed this when they did their own validation.

1) Yes, but the assumptions that are made to adjust for errors in sampling may render the analysis inaccurate or misleading. For example, they heavily weighted a convenience sample to try to make it representative, but certain substrata may be underpowered within the sample for such an analysis. That's not really that big a deal, some of those magnitudes are implausible but the issues with the test kits are the big problem.

2) False negatives don't matter much, but false positives matter a lot, and the issue is not just accuracy, it's specificity. If I take 50 people that I knew were infected with covid and I give them a serological test that tests for chicken pox antibodies, it's almost certainly going to have a 100% positive rate. Would my chicken pox antibody test be a 100% valid and accurate test for covid antibodies then? This is an exaggeration, but it's important because the closeness of endemic coronaviruses and the novel coronavirus means that you could end up picking up antibodies for the former if the test is not specific enough. This isn't just an academic concern, it was a big problem with SARS serological testing (Projecting the transmission dynamics of SARS-CoV-2 through the postpandemic period). Again, these are Chinese-manufactured tests that have not been approved by China's FDA, it's kind of the wild west.

The false positive rate claimed by the kit manufacturers was 2 out of 401 (these samples were taken before the novel coronavirus existed, so they must be negative), which is what the Stanford researchers relied upon, but that rate is itself a simple point estimate based on measurements within a sample and the confidence interval of that rate contains a false positive rate that would explain away the entire positive sample in the Stanford study as false.

There's a more comprehensive explanation of the testing error issue here: Counting rare things is hard

A rate of 50 positives out of 3330 healthy people is high: if true, it would imply COViD-19 was much more common and therefore much less serious than we thought. The researchers used a test that had given 2 positive results out of 401 samples known to be negative (because they were taken before the pandemic started). If the false positive rate was exactly 2/401 , you’d get 0.005×3330 false positives on average, or only about 17, leaving 33 true positives. But 2/401 is an estimate, with uncertainty. If we assume the known samples were otherwise perfectly representative, what we can be confident of with 2 positives out of 401 is only that the false positive rate is no greater than 1.5%. But 1.5% of 3330 is 50, so a false positive rate of 1.5% is already enough to explain the results! We don’t even have to worry if, say, the researchers chose this test from a range of competitors because it had the best supporting evidence and thereby introduced a bit of bias.

On top of that, the 3330 people were tested because they responded to Facebook ads. Because infection is rare, you don’t need to assume much self-selection of respondents to bias the prevalence estimate upwards. You might be surprised to see me say this, because yesterday I thought voluntary supermarket surveys were a pretty good idea. They are, but they will still have bias, which could be upwards or downwards. We wouldn’t use the results of a test in a few supermarkets to overturn the other evidence about disease severity; we want to use them to start finding undetected cases — any undetected cases.

The obvious way to test these results is just to do serological testing in New York City. If the magnitudes are really "20 to 30x higher than case estimates" then half the city or more has already been exposed, so testing 1,000 people should get you hundreds of positives, well beyond any uncertainty over the test kits' false positive rates. If it only gets you a few dozen, well...
 
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It lasts until we get a gamechanger, either in the form of a vaccine or proven treatment or something else.

& this is why it's just plain dangerous to get all tea baggy about having to stay home. Viruses don't play. We're looking at 60k deaths WITH all the social distancing we could scrape up, and that never was as intense in some of the most pro-"opening" places.

We saw a peak and plateau come and go in NYC proper, but that's just the first front. If we take it seriously, we stay in the 10s of thousands dead. If not, we go up to the next order of magnitude, or the next.

It's likely infectious enough that 40-70% still get it. It's a matter of when. I'm okay not getting it until there are treatments and/or cures. Better yet, I'm okay with getting the vaccine instead of the virus. For that we need time... and that doesn't mean a month.

Uncharted territory. It seems we will have to open selectively and cautiously. But that's not what's happening.
 
Tampa Bay kicked the only sports legend they've ever had out of a park for literally no reason whatsoever.
 
Actually, yes, it is. It's called flattening the curve... we did it... and now it's time to get back out there.

Also, that virus has infected way more people than we thought... 28 to 55 times more, as @Ross12 said, and guess what... they're not presenting with symptoms... so the mortality rate is way lower than we thought too. Win win.

______

Just saying my piece...



...before this thread inevitably implodes.

Who do you think I'm going to listen to? The people on the front line (i.e., real, actual experts) or fanatic trumpeters like you?

The idea that you can't be reinfected or not be infected by a mutation of the same virus is unsubstantiated. There's just no clear cut proof at this point. Pretty much most everything we know about the virus remains an educated guess. There's just not enough data.

I'm told that "flattening the curve" might work in terms of not overwhelming the joke of a health care system we have in this country, but there's going to be constant hotspots popping up and spiking- we'll be playing whack-a-mole for a long time to come.

Apologies for hijacking this thread, but I think it's worthwhile to correct misconceptions.
 
Read an interesting article last night about Sweden who seemed to do just that.

The government of Sweden trust that their citizens will do the right thing such as staying home or isolate themselves if they have symptoms, and by and large, they are doing a great job of following the guidelines set by the government, a reflection of their trust in their (gasp) government.

Now... why doesn't that work here... hmmmmmmmmm... hahahahaha
 
The obvious way to test these results is just to do serological testing in New York City. If the magnitudes are really "20 to 30x higher than case estimates" then half the city or more has already been exposed, so testing 1,000 people should get you hundreds of positives. If it only gets you a few dozen, well...
It won't be as high of a magnitude of difference since NY has a much higher percentage of people who have tested positive. I predict at least 100 of the 1,000 will test positive for antibodies, but I wouldn't be surprised if 200 (or more) do.
 
The government of Sweden trust that their citizens will do the right thing such as staying home or isolate themselves if they have symptoms, and by and large, they are doing a great job of following the guidelines set by the government, a reflection of their trust in their (gasp) government.

Now... why doesn't that work here... hmmmmmmmmm... hahahahaha
Yeah, that is a very good point. Sweden didn't shut down, but advised some social distancing protocols, and the citizens followed those protocols well. It's unfortunate that the same can't happen here. My household has been pretty diligent about it, but my neighbors on both sides of me (and my neighbor's neighbor) all had family over for Easter, and have all since then had social gatherings at least once, if not more, since then.
 
So, how do we know social distancing has slowed the virus from spreading? That hasn't been peer-reviewed either, nor does it have a control group.

Answer: we DON'T know it's slowed the virus. The virus could have spread just as quickly if we'd all kept going to work. We have no idea.

Are you actually serious with this ? Saying we don't know that quarantine and social distancing has actually slowed the virus is flat earth level silliness.
 
Are you actually serious with this ? Saying we don't know that quarantine and social distancing has actually slowed the virus is flat earth level silliness.

No, it’s not. And name calling is weak. I mean, I don’t care. But it’s weak when that’s all you can do. Look at the science that we actually have. This thing has spread big time despite quarantine.

The good news is that it appears way less lethal than we thought. So that’s a huge plus.
 
No, it’s not. And name calling is weak. I mean, I don’t care. But it’s weak when that’s all you can do. Look at the science that we actually have. This thing has spread big time despite quarantine.

It is not name calling, your stance that there is no proof that quarantine led to the viral spread slowing down is batshit insane. Just compare the growth rates and graphs. The numbers which show how the initial exponential growth rates slow down into a flatter curve are everywhere and have been shown independently in most countries around the world.

What else do you think caused this highly contagious virus to stop spreading from person to person ? Did the virus get bored and ****ed off to Pluto? Did humanity randomly lose all of their ACE2 receptors exactly at that time frame ?

I mean come this is not even some complicated scientific scenario. You lower the amount of social interactions, you lower the number of potential people you can unwillingly infect. Cause and Effect.

Be my guest if you want to argue that people are overreacting to its severity and what not. You'd still be wrong but whatever. But denying that social distancing had an effect on the infection curve is absolutely absurd.
 
Yeah, that is a very good point. Sweden didn't shut down, but advised some social distancing protocols, and the citizens followed those protocols well. It's unfortunate that the same can't happen here. My household has been pretty diligent about it, but my neighbors on both sides of me (and my neighbor's neighbor) all had family over for Easter, and have all since then had social gatherings at least once, if not more, since then.

To be clear, I don't agree with how Sweden is going about this, because as you know their method obviously doesn't account for asymptomatic carriers.

They might be performing well compared to Spain, et al. But their numbers are still rising.
 
No, it’s not. And name calling is weak. I mean, I don’t care. But it’s weak when that’s all you can do. Look at the science that we actually have. This thing has spread big time despite quarantine.

The good news is that it appears way less lethal than we thought. So that’s a huge plus.

Where do you get your facts from, boy?

You ever hear of a town in Italy called Vò? Look it up.
 
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