OT: Bills Fans Not Pleased with New Stadium

[XLIX]

Buffalo absolutely deserves a domed stadium.

 

[Vindicate]

Cold ball is the best ball.

 

[TomPatriot]

As someone who lives in Buffalo, my facebook feed is filled with complaints. It's not being hyped up, the complaints are real.

The solution is not to seat people there.

There are plenty of stadiums with areas carved out without seating for these reasons. Sounds like they are trying to squeeze chairs in.

I was never a fan of them not building a domed stadium in downtown Buffalo. That is absolutely what they should have done, and it would have been worth the money, since in the last few years they have poured money into the city for Boondoggles ($750m to Tesla for a failed solar plant that employs no one).

There is a misconception about the taxpayer money being borne by NYS. All the money they used for the stadium came from the casino proceeds from the Seneca Indians, and studies have shown that 95% of that is local money. So this is really not a state taxpayer issue, but rather a local issue. The NFL provided a loan for 1/3rd of the money and Pegula paid the other third.

New York State contributed $600 million and Erie Country contributed $250 million. I don’t think the Krafts took a dime of public money to build or enhance Gillette.

 

[Ian]

This part was interesting. They're claiming the percentage of complaints was actually minimal, despite all the outcry online:

"A source told ESPN that the team has heard from "less than 1% of PSL holders" regarding any sightline issues at the stadium. The source added that some of the photos that are circulating show views from seats that are not for sale for football events."

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/49577679/bills-address-internal-external-feedback-new-stadium

 

[Triumph]

The Bills also unveiled some new alternate uniforms that underwhelm too.

They call these new helmets "Charge Helmets" Must be as in charging PSLs because I aint seeing no Buffalo on there.

 

[Ian]

PFT reports that the situation with the small video boards is also still being evaluated:

Bills are figuring out the best way to configure video boards at new stadium

When the Bills' new stadium had a soft launch on Saturday, some spoke hard truths about the size of the video boards.

www.nbcsports.com

 

[sb1]

The Bills also unveiled some new alternate uniforms that underwhelm too.

They call these new helmets "Charge Helmets" Must be as in charging PSLs because I aint seeing no Buffalo on there.

Looks like a superzoomed in crop of a normal Bills logo. Guess the red part is the "charge". Makes sense I guess... kind of. Ok not really lol

 

[Bill Lee]

New York State contributed $600 million and Erie Country contributed $250 million. I don’t think the Krafts took a dime of public money to build or enhance Gillette.

IIRC at the time of the build the state paid for things like road and sewer upgrades, but that's standard for any large development plan.

Google AI supports this, but says the Krafts paid the money back over time:

• Indirect Public Funding: The Commonwealth of Massachusetts contributed $72 million to fund vital infrastructure improvements around the stadium site, including highway upgrades to Route 1, sewer lines, and utility improvements. [1, 2, 3]
• The Catch: This was not a standard taxpayer subsidy; the Patriots agreed to a long-term schedule to fully reimburse the state for these infrastructure costs. Additionally, the town of Foxborough helped by purchasing land to lease back to the team, eliminating standard property taxes on the venue. [1, 2, 3]

The only other thing it said that I think was worth quoting:

• The Route 1 Pedestrian Footbridge (2009): The most notable use of public money post-construction occurred when a state planning organization approved $9 million in federal economic stimulus funds to build a pedestrian overpass across Route 1. This footbridge connected Gillette Stadium and Patriot Place to the parking lots on the opposite side of the highway. State officials justified the spending by arguing it would improve public safety and jump-start economic development on Kraft’s non-stadium properties. [1]

It also mentioned that the town and the state incur policing costs related to the events, but also, the town and the state get tax payments too.

 

[Rob0729]

It is funny, the Patriots jumbotron that they had when they built the stadium in 2002 was as big as the one in the new Bills stadium. And even then, it wasn't considered to be a big jumbotron for the time.

It is hard to impossible to build a stadium with 60-80 seats and not have a few obstructed views. But this stadium seems to be rifled with obstructed views. Who did they hire to design the stadium. If you look at some of the obstructed views and even a layman like myself could have figured out "simple" fixes to avoid some of these issues. I don't know how a profession architect with probably decades of experience designing stadiums couldn't see these issues when designing the stadium.

The Bills stadium already feels dated and it is brand new. Gillette is a quarter century old and feels far more new and modern if you looked at pictures of both. And I would not say Gillette looks all that modern compared to most newer NFL stadiums even in pictures.

 

[Triumph]

Looks like a superzoomed in crop of a normal Bills logo. Guess the red part is the "charge". Makes sense I guess... kind of. Ok not really lol

Its awful.

Between this and the seating issues, Bills fans will be drinking worse than ever before games. The Mafia will probably be ripping the Bills owner day 1 of the stadiums first game.

 

[TommyD4207]

IIRC at the time of the build the state paid for things like road and sewer upgrades, but that's standard for any large development plan.

Google AI supports this, but says the Krafts paid the money back over time:

• Indirect Public Funding: The Commonwealth of Massachusetts contributed $72 million to fund vital infrastructure improvements around the stadium site, including highway upgrades to Route 1, sewer lines, and utility improvements. [1, 2, 3]
• The Catch: This was not a standard taxpayer subsidy; the Patriots agreed to a long-term schedule to fully reimburse the state for these infrastructure costs. Additionally, the town of Foxborough helped by purchasing land to lease back to the team, eliminating standard property taxes on the venue. [1, 2, 3]

The only other thing it said that I think was worth quoting:

• The Route 1 Pedestrian Footbridge (2009): The most notable use of public money post-construction occurred when a state planning organization approved $9 million in federal economic stimulus funds to build a pedestrian overpass across Route 1. This footbridge connected Gillette Stadium and Patriot Place to the parking lots on the opposite side of the highway. State officials justified the spending by arguing it would improve public safety and jump-start economic development on Kraft’s non-stadium properties. [1]

It also mentioned that the town and the state incur policing costs related to the events, but also, the town and the state get tax payments too.

I would have Google AI double check their math. The footbridge amount is right, but I don't think it was anywhere close to 72 million that the Commonwealth contributed, initially. It was some, but that number seems super-high. The entire stadium was 300 million total, if I remember right.

 

[Rob0729]

This part was interesting. They're claiming the percentage of complaints was actually minimal, despite all the outcry online:

"A source told ESPN that the team has heard from "less than 1% of PSL holders" regarding any sightline issues at the stadium. The source added that some of the photos that are circulating show views from seats that are not for sale for football events."

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/49577679/bills-address-internal-external-feedback-new-stadium

I am not one who buys into the BS conspiracy of writers making up anonymous sources, but I do believe that anonymous sources can be self serving and can lie to reporters. I would be suspect of this being the latter. It would be in the team's best interest to claim that the outcry is overblown and these crap seats aren't even sold.

I tend to doubt with the popularity of the Bills in the Buffalo era that they do not sell all the seats in the stadium every game even the obstructed view ones. Ten or twenty years ago when the Bills sucked and had trouble selling out games, I might believe it.

Now what might be true is those obstructed views are not sold to PSL owners and sold as individual game tickets. But even then if someone is spending $75-100 or more for a single game ticket, they should be able to see the entire field unless the tickets are advertised as obstructed view tickets. But people could still get screwed buying these tickets on the secondary market.

 

[sb1]

It is funny, the Patriots jumbotron that they had when they built the stadium in 2002 was as big as the one in the new Bills stadium. And even then, it wasn't considered to be a big jumbotron for the time.

It is hard to impossible to build a stadium with 60-80 seats and not have a few obstructed views. But this stadium seems to be rifled with obstructed views. Who did they hire to design the stadium. If you look at some of the obstructed views and even a layman like myself could have figured out "simple" fixes to avoid some of these issues. I don't know how a profession architect with probably decades of experience designing stadiums couldn't see these issues when designing the stadium.

The Bills stadium already feels dated and it is brand new. Gillette is a quarter century old and feels far more new and modern if you looked at pictures of both. And I would not say Gillette looks all that modern compared to most newer NFL stadiums even in pictures.

Building those exposed stairwells and railings was... a choice.

Apparently, $2.1 billion doesn't buy a clear view: Bills fans discover major problem with new stadium

Several fans say they were told railings wouldn't obstruct their views before purchasing seats

www.cbssports.com

They have a big problem if fans bought PSLs and were told these views wouldn't be a problem.

 

[sb1]

Virtual POV of their stadium from any position.

Buffalo Bills Virtual Venue™ by IOMEDIA

3D Interactive Seat Views for Buffalo Bills interactive seat map using Virtual Venue™ by IOMEDIA

buffalobills.io-media.com

I thought they had only one video board but I guess they have 2. I can also see it in the reflection in the photo above.

 

[upstater1]

New York State contributed $600 million and Erie Country contributed $250 million. I don’t think the Krafts took a dime of public money to build or enhance Gillette.

I'll say this again: the $600m came from the Seneca Indian casino fund. The Erie County money is the same sales tax money amortized over time that Erie Co. ALWAYS paid even on the old stadium (35% of the season ticket base doesn't live in the region).

 

[Sect140]

IIRC at the time of the build the state paid for things like road and sewer upgrades, but that's standard for any large development plan.

Google AI supports this, but says the Krafts paid the money back over time:

• Indirect Public Funding: The Commonwealth of Massachusetts contributed $72 million to fund vital infrastructure improvements around the stadium site, including highway upgrades to Route 1, sewer lines, and utility improvements. [1, 2, 3]
• The Catch: This was not a standard taxpayer subsidy; the Patriots agreed to a long-term schedule to fully reimburse the state for these infrastructure costs. Additionally, the town of Foxborough helped by purchasing land to lease back to the team, eliminating standard property taxes on the venue. [1, 2, 3]

The only other thing it said that I think was worth quoting:

• The Route 1 Pedestrian Footbridge (2009): The most notable use of public money post-construction occurred when a state planning organization approved $9 million in federal economic stimulus funds to build a pedestrian overpass across Route 1. This footbridge connected Gillette Stadium and Patriot Place to the parking lots on the opposite side of the highway. State officials justified the spending by arguing it would improve public safety and jump-start economic development on Kraft’s non-stadium properties. [1]

It also mentioned that the town and the state incur policing costs related to the events, but also, the town and the state get tax payments too.

If I remember correctly the state contributed money to the infrastructure phase of the project.

 

[Triumph]

Building those exposed stairwells and railings was... a choice.

Apparently, $2.1 billion doesn't buy a clear view: Bills fans discover major problem with new stadium

Several fans say they were told railings wouldn't obstruct their views before purchasing seats

www.cbssports.com

They have a big problem if fans bought PSLs and were told these views wouldn't be a problem.

At Arrowhead, there are short like tunnels at all levels that lead to the seats. No obstructive views. 50 year old design was not good enough for Buffalo and they knew it was a problem otherwise they would not have glass panels.

Im fairly certain that the Bills Architectural firm is based in KC. Yup, Populous Holdings - Wikipedia That was Buffalos first mistake.

 

[TomPatriot]

I'll say this again: the $600m came from the Seneca Indian casino fund. The Erie County money is the same sales tax money amortized over time that Erie Co. ALWAYS paid even on the old stadium (35% of the season ticket base doesn't live in the region).

Yes, but those are funds that would have gone to the taxpayers or other projects. It is money that the Senecas allegedly owe the State, but was in dispute and frozen by NY state.

 

[ScottishPatriots]

At Arrowhead, there are short like tunnels at all levels that lead to the seats. No obstructive views. 50 year old design was not good enough for Buffalo and they knew it was a problem otherwise they would not have glass panels.

Im fairly certain that the Bills Architectural firm is based in KC. Yup, Populous Holdings - Wikipedia That was Buffalos first mistake.

They were supposedly using the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium as research how they wanted their stadium to be since the NFL were so heavily involved in building that for NFL London, they managed to do it by keeping stairways and glass panelling out of sight lines using the same company.

Was this a deliberate act of sabotage or just design flaws by trying to be too creative?

 

[upstater1]

Yes, but those are funds that would have gone to the taxpayers or other projects. It is money that the Senecas allegedly owe the State, but was in dispute and frozen by NY state.

Understood.

This is more a response to NYC and state of NY taxpayers who are wondering, "Why are we footing the bill for a stadium in Buffalo?" I am pointing out that the money comes out of Buffalo.

This is an issue in Buffalo because every city in the state gets economic development money. For instance, Syracuse got $5b for a Micron plant, but we keep hearing about how Buffalo got $1.3bn for a stadium and a Tesla plant, neither of which are going to move things economically in the region. So up here they always point out the stadium money was local money.