PostGame Thread OFFICIAL POSTGAME THREAD: Patriots lose to Raiders 21-17

[Vindicate]

Imho, this would be Parker all over again. TH's also had the benefit of coming in at the same time as Burrow.

And playing second to Chase. Higgins also has been rough this season. Gets open, but drops a lot, doesn't finish the catch.

 

[sb1]

Releasing it on the throw to Parker. Look at his feet. That's why it was a great throw.

Stepping into the throw like he did here should be a reflex by now not something the QB has to think about before he does it.

 

[VrabelJr]

I'm going to disappear from the forums for the rest of the season because there just isn't anything interesting to talk about regarding this team anymore and my attention is better spent else where. Here's the last of it:

Given the injuries and talent available we're completely screwed and in a way that is incredibly infuriating to watch unfold live. I'm not one of the spoiled fans who only tuned in for the last 5-23 years. We're putting out an incredibly embarrassing product on the field on the offensive side of the ball at every single roster spot aside from David Andrews, Kendrick Bourne, and Ezekiel Elliott. Our TEs that can catch can't block. Our TE that can block can't catch. Our Guards don't guard. Our Tackles get tackled. You might as well mute the game and play Vaudeville background music when our offense is on the field.

I can't help but wonder if our lackluster FA signings are payback for all the talk of "BB isn't fun to play for" finally catching up to him. It's hard to sign good FAs if they don't want to play for you. I'm not in the fire BB camp, because I know bad coaching can be, but if I was then not having access to the best FAs is a huge hurdle to overcome. It's speculation on my part, which is all we do on here anyway.

Enjoy the rest of the season as much as you can.

 

[lancerman]

I don't know, they had just slightly better QB play they'd be definitely 4-2. QB is the #1 most important position in football and it's not even close.
Mac's crucial errors this year:
-He threw a pick 6 against Eagles with zero pressure and threw high to Bourne. They lose by 1 score with the ball at the end.
-Dolphins He throws a horrible jump ball pick just after the momentum changing blocked kick with 1st down inside Dolphin territory. Again zero pressure. Have ball at end, can't score
-Saints game, who knows, I count this as a loss with another QB because 34-3 but first score pick 6, yes pressure but should eat the ball there. His Fumble leads to 3 points, another interception leads to 7. All QB's have turnovers BUT all 3 are in the Patriots end of the field and lead to easy points. Another NO field goal was on change of downs at Pats 31. 2 drives NO had -2 and -6 yards and scored 2 field goals. So Saints offense really earned 14 points and 17 of the other are directly related to Jones. With Kirk Cousins, even with ONE of his dumb plays' they might win this one, despite the lopsided score.
-Dallas-10-3 score, Mac then Fumbles into a Touchdown, had escaped pocket but had no awareness from behind and then later threw pick 6 for a touchdown when he had all day to throw and no pressure when throwing and now it's 28-3.
-Raiders-Rolled out, no pressure, open guy, overthrows, picked off, there goes at least 3 points.

Pick any top 15 QB and they will make mistakes, but Mac's crucial mistakes come most of the time with no pressure and no reason to blame the line or receivers on almost all the crucial mistakes listed.

So with any top 15 QB the team is probably 4-2 and the other 2 games they would likely have been at least in them. Despite the Oline and the receivers and the injuries.

This is not a 4-2 team regardless of what QB you put in. There's 8 teams that are a 4-2 or better this year.

The Dolphins, Eagles, 49'ers and Bills who are just much more talented and amongst the most talented teams in the league.

The Ravens who have more speed on offense. Jacksonville who is better than us. Kansas City who is has the premier tight end in the league. And a well balanced Detroit team.

This team is not in the same tier as those teams when you take QB out of the picture and that's the quality you need to believe to think this is a 4-2 quality team. Those QB's aren't making Bourne make the toe tap or Parker make that catch. And you can harp on interceptions, but Mac has 7... so does Hurts, Allen has 6. Tua and Mahomes have 5. So you are still going to need to factor that **** in all the games. Mac isn't as good as any of those QB's but you can't act like all of sudden their own bad plays dissapear.

You can also find a dozen other mistakes in each of those games that have nothing to do with the QB.

I'm sorry but you have to be delusional at this point to think this is a 4-2 team when you look at who is actually in that category right now and how much more talented they are.

 

[Ian]

I don't know, they had just slightly better QB play they'd be definitely 4-2. QB is the #1 most important position in football and it's not even close.
Mac's crucial errors this year:
-He threw a pick 6 against Eagles with zero pressure and threw high to Bourne. They lose by 1 score with the ball at the end.
-Dolphins He throws a horrible jump ball pick just after the momentum changing blocked kick with 1st down inside Dolphin territory. Again zero pressure. Have ball at end, can't score
-Saints game, who knows, I count this as a loss with another QB because 34-3 but first score pick 6, yes pressure but should eat the ball there. His Fumble leads to 3 points, another interception leads to 7. All QB's have turnovers BUT all 3 are in the Patriots end of the field and lead to easy points. Another NO field goal was on change of downs at Pats 31. 2 drives NO had -2 and -6 yards and scored 2 field goals. So Saints offense really earned 14 points and 17 of the other are directly related to Jones. With Kirk Cousins, even with ONE of his dumb plays' they might win this one, despite the lopsided score.
-Dallas-10-3 score, Mac then Fumbles into a Touchdown, had escaped pocket but had no awareness from behind and then later threw pick 6 for a touchdown when he had all day to throw and no pressure when throwing and now it's 28-3.
-Raiders-Rolled out, no pressure, open guy, overthrows, picked off, there goes at least 3 points.

Pick any top 15 QB and they will make mistakes, but Mac's crucial mistakes come most of the time with no pressure and no reason to blame the line or receivers on almost all the crucial mistakes listed.

A lot of his regression has had to do with how bad the line play has been. He's been hit a ton, which included some big ones last season and it's continued into this year. I doubt he's here beyond next year because they're likely not picking up his option and odds are pretty good he won't want to sign here of all places for short money. So they'll likely be better off dealing him either at the deadline or over the offseason.

 

[sb1]

Hard to believe this is the same Raiders franchise that was at or near the top of my most hated team list for decades. Now they're just another team in the conference and one who has a lot of guys connected with the Pats. Even TB12 who told Raiders fans to their face years ago he'd never play for them is now on the verge of being part owner. Weird times...

Maybe it's because Al isn't around anymore instead it's his son with the salad bowl haircut...

 

[203Pat]

Lol apparently Adam Butler's feelings were hurt that Bill didn't talk to him after the game. I honestly had no idea he was still in the league.

 

[sb1]

A lot of his regression has had to do with how bad the line play has been. He's been hit a ton, which included some big ones last season and it's continued into this year. I doubt he's here beyond next year because they're likely not picking up his option and odds are pretty good he won't want to sign here of all places for short money. So they'll likely be better off dealing him either at the deadline or over the offseason.

Pre 2021 draft everyone said that this team was a perfect fit for Mac with the way we play offense and he could hit the ground running. Looks like they couldn't have been more wrong.

Now I wonder if we were the worst possible fit for him. Still no RT, drafted G's pretending to be T's, the rest of the OL in flux, no good WR, a disaster of a coaching experiment in year 2... he needs the team around him to be effective, he's not a guy that can elevate his team and I question how much of a leader he really is.

 

[Steve102]

I didn't say "he's the guy" - you're missing the point. The point is, it's Week 6, and "the guy" may not be available for 1-2 years, or longer. Jones can be adequate enough to be what they need to buy them time to find the guy. Because they don't have a better option on the roster, unless Grier is any better at outrunning defensive lineman.

The Steelers didn't have the guy between Bradshaw and Roethlisberger. There's no guarantee The Guy will every materialize in Foxboro in our lifetimes. I say leave Mac out there thru his rookie contract and let him get beat on while they groom the next kid and hope the next kid is better. This team is miles away from being right.

 

[1960Pats]

I'm going to disappear from the forums for the rest of the season because there just isn't anything interesting to talk about regarding this team anymore and my attention is better spent else where. Here's the last of it:

Given the injuries and talent available we're completely screwed and in a way that is incredibly infuriating to watch unfold live. I'm not one of the spoiled fans who only tuned in for the last 5-23 years. We're putting out an incredibly embarrassing product on the field on the offensive side of the ball at every single roster spot aside from David Andrews, Kendrick Bourne, and Ezekiel Elliott. Our TEs that can catch can't block. Our TE that can block can't catch. Our Guards don't guard. Our Tackles get tackled. You might as well mute the game and play Vaudeville background music when our offense is on the field.

I can't help but wonder if our lackluster FA signings are payback for all the talk of "BB isn't fun to play for" finally catching up to him. It's hard to sign good FAs if they don't want to play for you. I'm not in the fire BB camp, because I know bad coaching can be, but if I was then not having access to the best FAs is a huge hurdle to overcome. It's speculation on my part, which is all we do on here anyway.

Enjoy the rest of the season as much as you can.

If I were you I'd quit watching football, at least for a while, but not give up on this site. It has far more to offer than just football and now may be the perfect time to explore those other options.

 

[1960Pats]

Pre 2021 draft everyone said that this team was a perfect fit for Mac with the way we play offense and he could hit the ground running. Looks like they couldn't have been more wrong.

Now I wonder if we were the worst possible fit for him. Still no RT, drafted G's pretending to be T's, the rest of the OL in flux, no good WR, a disaster of a coaching experiment in year 2... he needs the team around him to be effective, he's not a guy that can elevate his team and I question how much of a leader he really is.

Most people are going to try and be positive about anyone who comes here and at least give them a chance for a while. Mac's career so far has been so convoluted that it's still a little difficult to get an accurate read on him. So far it doesn't look good.

 

[Ian]

Pre 2021 draft everyone said that this team was a perfect fit for Mac with the way we play offense and he could hit the ground running. Looks like they couldn't have been more wrong.

2021 was so radically different compared to now. Back then, he was the perfect fit. You're right, those days are gone.

Now I wonder if we were the worst possible fit for him. Still no RT, drafted G's pretending to be T's, the rest of the OL in flux, no good WR, a disaster of a coaching experiment in year 2... he needs the team around him to be effective, he's not a guy that can elevate his team and I question how much of a leader he really is.

He is what he is. He's a good player who can't be much better than that unless he has talent around him, which is true of most young quarterbacks who aren't great/elite. The great/elite guys can elevate, the good ones need great players to elevate them or help them get to the next level.

Absolutely agree, he's not the right guy for their philosophy here. They need to keep drafting guys and sifting through players to find a guy who can do that. But unless we all want to grow old waiting for it, they're going to need to be incredibly critical and do what Arizona did and immediately part ways with guys after a season like they did with Rosen to speed up that process. If that's what they want/need (if they're not going to spend to bring any upper-echelon receiving talent in), giving a player 2-3 years is going to drag that all out.

 

[Ian]

I question how much of a leader he really is.

Also agree with you here. I think he's relatively well liked in the locker room, but you don't see a lot of Jones up and around guys on the bench ahead of a drive. I get everyone's different, but we haven't seen that in his three seasons here, although I don't know if it's out of frustration with guys during games or just how he is. Either way, it probably isn't helping the situation.

 

[KCSVEN]

This is not a 4-2 team regardless of what QB you put in. There's 8 teams that are a 4-2 or better this year.

I agree, they would not be a good 4-2 team, and it would be a record like the Vikings last year where they were not as good as their record but they made the 1 play to win in like 9 game that season.
However, Patriots were basically on the verge of winning in 3 of the losses this year. Take out 1 bad QB mistake in each game and they win 2 for sure and possibly a 3rd game. Overall, they are not a good team, despite that they've been in a position to win 3 of the games they lost.

 

[ralmat55]

Yes the cap and accrual accounting are basically the same thing. The cap appears to me to be more flexible than typical accounting rules allowing the cash and accrual "match up" to be more than a few years - it looks like the Ssints are stretching it to 5+ years or more.

The salary cap is the opposite of accrual accounting which is the process of recording expenses when incurred rather than when paid.

The NFL’s system is more of a deferral accounting system where today’s expenditures can be expensed in the future.

Because bonus money is spread evenly over the years of the contract, by paying bonuses rather than salary, teams can borrow cap space from future seasons as a way of increasing the current season’s compensation for players.

The process of paying more than the current season’s cap space by borrowing from future season’s cap room is where the Pats, under Belichick, have operated differently than most of the NFL. The Patriots, although they use deferral accounting, usually have cash outlays more in line with the cap figure for that season.

 

[Brotherblues]

And playing second to Chase. Higgins also has been rough this season. Gets open, but drops a lot, doesn't finish the catch.

Yeah I'm not sold on Higgins. The type of guy we'd be sold on just doesn't make it to free agency. They get extended by their original team or by a team that trades for them and then extends them. In essense a #1 WR is now treated almost like a franchise QB.

 

[upstater1]

I'm going to disappear from the forums for the rest of the season because there just isn't anything interesting to talk about regarding this team anymore and my attention is better spent else where. Here's the last of it:

Given the injuries and talent available we're completely screwed and in a way that is incredibly infuriating to watch unfold live. I'm not one of the spoiled fans who only tuned in for the last 5-23 years. We're putting out an incredibly embarrassing product on the field on the offensive side of the ball at every single roster spot aside from David Andrews, Kendrick Bourne, and Ezekiel Elliott. Our TEs that can catch can't block. Our TE that can block can't catch. Our Guards don't guard. Our Tackles get tackled. You might as well mute the game and play Vaudeville background music when our offense is on the field.

I can't help but wonder if our lackluster FA signings are payback for all the talk of "BB isn't fun to play for" finally catching up to him. It's hard to sign good FAs if they don't want to play for you. I'm not in the fire BB camp, because I know bad coaching can be, but if I was then not having access to the best FAs is a huge hurdle to overcome. It's speculation on my part, which is all we do on here anyway.

Enjoy the rest of the season as much as you can.

While it's true it'll be hard to attract top FAs, I'm not sure who we are even talking about here when it comes to the FA market. We've signed top WRs in the market, top TEs, the OLs that went at the top have busted.

Not sure anyone in FA could've improved the situation.

Who?

 

[Toofy]

This team is not in the same tier as those teams when you take QB out of the picture and that's the quality you need to believe to think this is a 4-2 quality team. Those QB's aren't making Bourne make the toe tap or Parker make that catch. And you can harp on interceptions, but Mac has 7... so does Hurts, Allen has 6. Tua and Mahomes have 5. So you are still going to need to factor that **** in all the games. Mac isn't as good as any of those QB's but you can't act like all of sudden their own bad plays dissapear.

I think this is the key here. Are we barking at the wrong tree in Mac and completely ignoring the lackadaisical team building by Bill.

Mac definitely did more more harm than good but guess we tend to be more critical than other fans of our players. Parker could have helped Mac get back his confidence yesterday but picked the worst time to drop a catch. Same goes with Boutte toe drop or strange not muscling in for an extra yard.



Our self inflicted wounds are so much that any QB will not survive this mess. Even if the next year QB class is great I think we need to shore up offensive line and WR before we get to QB. Else we will be doing what panthers
did to Bryce young.

Mac might not be the answer but it's in our best interest to fire Bill , get a new OC , GM and HC if mayo is not the guy and start afresh.

Bill if he is still looking for shulas record and not looking at pats long term growth should probably be fired mid season now. I want Boutte and reagor to get all the snaps.

 

[h0c2000]

Lol apparently Adam Butler's feelings were hurt that Bill didn't talk to him after the game. I honestly had no idea he was still in the league.

The tinfoil hat he's wearing is apropos.

 

[sb1]

Also agree with you here. I think he's relatively well liked in the locker room, but you don't see a lot of Jones up and around guys on the bench ahead of a drive. I get everyone's different, but we haven't seen that in his three seasons here, although I don't know if it's out of frustration with guys during games or just how he is. Either way, it probably isn't helping the situation.

I also feel like he gets a lot of pats on the back from his teammates instead of the other way around. Maybe having Brady for all those years is way too high of a bar to chase but still I wonder about him...