Official Post Game Thread- Pats beat the Chargers

[sb1]

The 2018 defense was not very good until late in the season especially the playoffs. That is exactly like this team which is starting to round into form right now.

I hope you're right. Even if so it might be too late. Would have been nice if they showed up against the Texans - that might be the difference between WC and going home in a few weeks.

 

[Ring 6]

It was being argued in the post to which I responded and countless other posts, specifically about Belichick winning without Brady.

I don't consider 6-6 for this team, Bill's less than .500 record and no rings without a top QB "winning." Do you?

It’s a stupid argument. You cannot ignore 20 years of success. No coach always wins. All coaches won more with better teams and less with bad teams.
belichick won rings before Brady was a top QB.

 

[Ring 6]

Unlikely.

This team is in no way better than the top teams in the AFC even with Brady. Defense is not even close to what it was in 2018 and schedule is much harder. Brady does bring a better passing game so most likely we do make it in as a WC but I can't see any way we win a playoff game.

How is the defense not better (or equal) to 2018? Facts don’t back up you feelings.

 

[sb1]

How is the defense not better (or equal) to 2018? Facts don’t back up you feelings.

The defense, more than the lack of a passing game will be the reason why this team is likely home in January. If they were that great - where were they against the Texans, Bills and Niners? They even got schooled by Flacco and the Pats could have lost that one too.

They have been better the last couple of games for sure. I suppose an improvement of dead last in DVOA to 22nd in the league in the last 2 weeks is "better". The 2018 defense was terrific in the playoffs. Are we sure this one will be if we get there?

2019 - same thing. Really good defense, even if a bit overrated. Put that defense on the 2020 team and we're in a playoff spot right now.

 

[amfootball]

It’s a stupid argument. You cannot ignore 20 years of success. No coach always wins. All coaches won more with better teams and less with bad teams.
belichick won rings before Brady was a top QB.

I never understand this statement. Brady went to the pro bowl in 2001 and 2004 which were 2 of the 3 SB wins meaning he was a top 3 QB in the AFC those years. How is that not being a top QB?

 

[Ring 6]

The defense, more than the lack of a passing game will be the reason why this team is likely home in January. If they were that great - where were they against the Texans, Bills and Niners? They even got schooled by Flacco and the Pats could have lost that one too.

They have been better the last couple of games for sure. I suppose an improvement of dead last in DVOA to 22nd in the league in the last 2 weeks is "better". The 2018 defense was terrific in the playoffs. Are we sure this one will be if we get there?

2019 - same thing. Really good defense, even if a bit overrated. Put that defense on the 2020 team and we're in a playoff spot right now.

That’s your argument? The defense isn’t good because it hasn’t dominated every game? Do you follow the nfl?

where was the 2018 defense against Tennessee, Miami, Detroit, Jacksonville?
they got schooled by the bears and were lucky to win that game.
They allowed 28 and 31 in the first 2 playoff games.

This defense is playing very well and continuing to grow. Players are taking larger roles and producing. It has shut down very good offenses.
It will be the reason this team wins.

 

[sb1]

That’s your argument? The defense isn’t good because it hasn’t dominated every game? Do you follow the nfl?

where was the 2018 defense against Tennessee, Miami, Detroit, Jacksonville?
they got schooled by the bears and were lucky to win that game.
They allowed 28 and 31 in the first 2 playoff games.

This defense is playing very well and continuing to grow. Players are taking larger roles and producing. It has shut down very good offenses.
It will be the reason this team wins.

I wasn't expecting domination but when you have no passing game your defense needs to be really good. 32nd in DVOA as of two weeks ago is far from what I'd call good.

If I'm wrong, then maybe they'll prove it tonight against a SB contending football team in their home stadium.

 

[Ring 6]

I never understand this statement. Brady went to the pro bowl in 2001 and 2004 which were 2 of the 3 SB wins meaning he was a top 3 QB in the AFC those years. How is that not being a top QB?

If you believe that ok. Take a look at who goes to probowls after all the top QBs opt out.
Here’s a short list without actually researching.
David carr 3 times
Andy Dalton 3 times
Mitch trubisky
Tyrod Taylor
Jamies Winston
Cam Newton 3 times
Carson Palmer 3 times
Teddy bridgewater.

that’s only going back 5 years.

 

[sb1]

It’s a stupid argument. You cannot ignore 20 years of success. No coach always wins. All coaches won more with better teams and less with bad teams.
belichick won rings before Brady was a top QB.

Belichick won rings before Brady was even in the league.

 

[amfootball]

If you believe that ok. Take a look at who goes to probowls after all the top QBs opt out.
Here’s a short list without actually researching.
David carr 3 times
Andy Dalton 3 times
Mitch trubisky
Tyrod Taylor
Jamies Winston
Cam Newton 3 times
Carson Palmer 3 times
Teddy bridgewater.

that’s only going back 5 years.

I get that but Brady did not get in because of any opt outs those years. He was selected in naturally. I mean you have to measure something. His stats those seasons had him as a top 10 QB, he was clutch. He was not elite yet like Manning that did not happen until 2006-2007 but he was a top QB for sure and a big reason why those chips were won in the early years.

 

[amfootball]

Belichick won rings before Brady was even in the league.

Not as a HC.

 

[sb1]

I get that but Brady did not get in because of any opt outs those years. He was selected in naturally. I mean you have to measure something. His stats those seasons had him as a top 10 QB, he was clutch. He was not elite yet like Manning that did not happen until 2006-2007 but he was a top QB for sure and a big reason why those chips were won in the early years.

Brady's numbers were pretty ordinary in 03 but he sure turned things up to the max in the Super Bowl when his defense was hurt and let the Panthers score at will. That was fun to watch.

 

[sb1]

Not as a HC.

Wasn't sure if that's what he meant.

 

[amfootball]

Brady's numbers were pretty ordinary in 03 but he sure turned things up to the max in the Super Bowl when his defense was hurt and let the Panthers score at will. That was fun to watch.

Right. I mean that was always how it went. If the D was struggling, he turned it on. Otherwise he game managed, protected the ball and led the game winning drives vs Tenn that year and Indy and then like you said the SB where he turned up the juice. It was a team effort but he was a big part of those wins.

 

[Ring 6]

I wasn't expecting domination but when you have no passing game your defense needs to be really good. 32nd in DVOA as of two weeks ago is far from what I'd call good.

If I'm wrong, then maybe they'll prove it tonight against a SB contending football team in their home stadium.

They didn’t prove it against KC, Baltimore, the chargers, Arizona?
I judge good by results not a formula.

 

[Ring 6]

Right. I mean that was always how it went. If the D was struggling, he turned it on. Otherwise he game managed, protected the ball and led the game winning drives vs Tenn that year and Indy and then like you said the SB where he turned up the juice. It was a team effort but he was a big part of those wins.

But it is being made out that Brady carried this team and they would have never win anything with any other qb.
For the first 3 rings he did his part. He made plays, he didn’t carry the team.
It isn’t all out nothing. We won with the greatest coach and a developing qb who was clutch. We also won when he was playing like the GOAT and then we won when he had declined.

 

[Ring 6]

I get that but Brady did not get in because of any opt outs those years. He was selected in naturally. I mean you have to measure something. His stats those seasons had him as a top 10 QB, he was clutch. He was not elite yet like Manning that did not happen until 2006-2007 but he was a top QB for sure and a big reason why those chips were won in the early years.

I’m talking about how they won and why they won. Starting around 2007 Brady was the overriding primary strength and what separated them from other contenders. Before that he was not.

 

[luuked]

Brady is a better down the field passer than Cam by miles...I dont even understand how you can make the argument that Brady would not be much more successful in this offense than Cam...Cam has zero pocket awareness, he throws balls into the dirt, he had passes batted down. He is inaccurate, he sucks at reading the defense...you think what Cam brings to the running game can make up for even part of those deficiencies?

I don't think Brady would be substantially more successful in this offense than he was in 2019. To me the success in the run game has a lot to do with what Cam makes opponents prepare for and all the misdirection that happens presnap and postsnap. But we have been through that three times now.

And, yes, I think what Cam brings to this specific team not only with his abilities but also the portion of the playbook it opens up gives them a better chance to win games than if we had another season of Bradyball targeting Meyers, Harry, Izzo and Moncrief in a crowded middle of the field. It certainly is worth the difference in contract value (1m vs. 25m).

Both QBs have issues that make them limited fits for the current configuration of this offense. I just feel like Cam's floor is higher because all the misdirection on options ect. comes baked in with him on the field. How exactly does Brady's ability to switch to the perfect play and throw to the correct place in the MOF help if most of the receivers are not consistently on the same page with him and those that (i.e. Jules) are seeing double coverage ?

Change up the WRs to a group that runs their concepts as well as Dola or Hogan did and it becomes a different story altogether.

 

[amfootball]

I’m talking about how they won and why they won. Starting around 2007 Brady was the overriding primary strength and what separated them from other contenders. Before that he was not.

I disagree. He is what separated them in the early years too. Ty Law has said this many times as has Rodney. The defense was great no doubt but without Brady we are the Ravens from 2000-2008. All those rings came because we had the defense AND a top Qb who was clutch.

 

[Mike the Brit]

I've re-watched the game now and was struck by how well pretty much every play was executed.

My game ball goes to Josh McDaniels for a game plan that restricted itself to a run-first (almost run-only) offense but still managed to find enough variation to confuse the opponents and keep them off balance. I still can't figure out why the wildcat formation works so well but it did. I also remember the play where Cam faked a handoff to Michel but kept it himself and followed Michel as a lead blocker. Brilliant! (The announcers said it was an improvisation on a busted play -- I'm sure it wasn't.) Other things that were incredibly pleasing on offense included Michel's catch from Stidham on the sidelines (great hands by anyone's standards, let alone a running back who generally only plays on first and second down), Harry's touchdown catch and Cam's up-and-over touchdown sneak.

To my eyes, the defense seemed much closer than it has been to last year: not having a dominant edge rusher but generating pass rush by mixing in blitzes, stunts and doing the unexpected. What a change from being picked apart by quarterbacks who could take their time because the defense was only rushing four (or even three). And the growth we're seeing from Butler, Winovich, Uche, Jennings and even Hall is impressive.

The problems are still there: Cam is limited as a passer and everyone knows it, and the defense still seems vulnerable to a good running attack. But there has been huge progress from the humiliations against the Broncos, San Francisco and Houston.