No Point in Tanking, the Future is Bleak

[Thelonious]

Whether we make a decision re Mac now or at the end of the season makes little difference, so we might as well let him play in hopes that he might elevate his trade value or demonstrate that he is worth holding onto. I frankly doubt either will happen, but as there is no better alternative and no advantage to "trying something else," why bother? There is no other qb on the roster worth a look at the moment, and taking on some vet or other castoff to win a couple games is pointless. We are 100% out of contention for the playoffs. The only thing we are "in contention for" is a high draft pick. I am ethically opposed to tanking, but that's not gonna prevent me from taking note of the advantages of losing re our draft status. If in the end, the decision is to give Mac another year to show what he can do with a (hopefully) improved roster, I don't mind that. First off, we are frankly not likely to be much more competitive next year than we are this year, given the broad and deep range of deficits in the roster. And we have PLENTY of roster building work to do aside from the qb position.

The immediate concern is that we need a new GM, one entirely independent of the HC, whoever that may turn out to be. I call this an immediate concern because we do not want Bill, now demonstrably an utterly failed GM, to play any role in the various decisions bearing upon the roster, some of which must be be made in very short order, possible trades this year, for example. I want Bill effectively removed from all GM responsibilities starting NOW. If that means he declines to continue as HC, I could not care less. I do not think BIll as HC is as sharp as he once was either re forming gameplans or re making decisions during the game. I think his sense of what is best offensively is archaic, and I see NO sign of his being willing to get on board with new offensive trends. I think other teams are onto his "eliminate their best weapon" approach to defense and have increasingly developed workarounds for it. So though I would not necessarily advocate for Bill's being fired immediately or at season's end as HC, neither would I be very disappointed if he resigned the job.

If I were the Krafts, I would hire an NFL-experienced consultant or two, guys (or women) who either might or might not be candidates for the GM job, to examine the whole situation. I would tell Bill that I was doing this and why. The "why" of course is that under Bill's leadership we now have what is likely the worst team in the league, virtually certainly the worst roster. If he whines about it, I would quote back to him his own words: "It is what it is: we have to coach and play better." I would add that we must begin immediately the work of building a much better roster, a much better roster, that is, than he has built.

 

[Thelonious]

I see a lot of talk re trades. I have no objection to trades, but they should all be made entirely in. keeping with objectives for next year and years following. Trading to improve the team this year - taking on some oldster to grab a couple more wins this season, for example - is a complete waste of time. For us, this season is over.

I will add that I do not want Bill to have any, certainly not the final, say on any such trades. Bill is a failed GM whom we are in the process of firing, assuming we have a lick of sense. See above for where I think the Krafts ought to be getting their advice on such things, starting right now.

 

[Thelonious]

p8ryts: Elaborate.

 

[lurker1965]

I disagree. Getting the first overall pick is infallible according to my friend Kenneth Simms. (Is that the right emoticon?)

 

[Thelonious]

Speculation as to what qb's might be available in the draft is a pointless parlor game at this point. The amswer is, "We don't know." What's important now is that we see to it that when the time does come to make a judgment as to which potential qb draftee might be best or even whether we would be wise to use our first-round pick on a qb (We have MANY other needs.), that we then have the right person/people in place to make those evaluations and those decisions. The key thing, again, is that that person NOT be Bill Belichick, and the work to ensure that a person of sounder judgement is in place for that work must begin NOW.

 

[Thelonious]

I disagree. Getting the first overall pick is infallible according to my friend Kenneth Simms. (Is that the right emoticon?)

I suppose we could try to devise a scheme which might infallibly result in our getting the first pick, but to me that would be unethical, and really, really ugly too, lol.

 

[lurker1965]

Oh, that emoticon did not convey what I hoped. Sorry Thelonious, Ken Sims was the Patriots first overall in like 1982. That he is not a recognizable name shows how important that pick was. Getting by Chicago with their pick AND Carolina's pick will be tough. I'd rather not be high enough to pick a QB to get killed behind this line. I want like 7 so we ca draft a tackle.

 

[Real fan 02]

I could give a chit about talent at WR if whoever is the QB has 2 seconds to get rid of the ball. It starts up front. They either have a talent issue, a coaching issue, or, likely, both. They have to fix the line issues, the WR issues and the QB issues.

The line needs influx of talent and/or coaching. Give me that, with a solid drafted #1 WR instead of Parker and then maybe Mac is somewhere above JAG level. There were moments yesterday where he looked "fair". I think Bourne is a fine possession receiver, nothing more. Parker, all set. Pop Douglas might be alright, but he can't stay on the field. Don't talk to me about this FA WR or that free agent WR, because if they were all that and a bag of chips, they wouldn't be available.

Recapping, you have 2 decent RBs in Zeke and Rham. No third down back, no FB. Two decent TEs in Gesicki and Henry, one lineman with a receiver # in Pharaoh. QB is probably topping out as a JAG, without the electricity of Fitzmagic or even Gardner Minshew. No back up QB, with a gimmick QB who can't get out of the way because the line is so bad. I don't think it's a complete retool on offense, but it's dammed close.

Absolutely agree with you and share your passion as a fan. But let me ask why would BB leave this roster like this? The offensive line is the most glaring need on the team. He looks like he's waived the white flag through his body language and interviews. He knows his team is screwed. So retooling the O line is priority 1. Adding 2023 standards NFL talent 2. Revamp the Defensive line..

If those things are done we could be back in contention.

 

[Real fan 02]

I suppose we could try to devise a scheme which might infallibly result in our getting the first pick, but to me that would be unethical, and really, really ugly too, lol.

Mike holley made a great point. He said this season had to happen this way in order for everything to be shown to the fans and ownership of what this team really is. So I'm at this point just looking for any type of entertainment value. I know we suck and are out of it. I never thought I'd be looking for other things to do on Sunday now.

 

[Steve102]

Absolutely agree with you and share your passion as a fan. But let me ask why would BB leave this roster like this? The offensive line is the most glaring need on the team. He looks like he's waived the white flag through his body language and interviews. He knows his team is screwed. So retooling the O line is priority 1. Adding 2023 standards NFL talent 2. Revamp the Defensive line..

If those things are done we could be back in contention.

I don't think he's going to have a choice, unless the tank job is on and we are all being played. I suspect he will be asked to retire much like Tom Coughlin.

 

[Real fan 02]

I don't think he's going to have a choice, unless the tank job is on and we are all being played. I suspect he will be asked to retire much like Tom Coughlin.

If JK has his way.. I definitely can see that happening. Yeah that's right Coughlin and BB are cut from the same Parcells tree. I think BB is ready.. he can sense it..

 

[Thelonious]

Coming at all this from another angle, I don't think there's any need to get all morose about where we are. Once you drop any expectation that we are gonna pull some sort of razzle dazzle which will make us competitive in the short run - we won't - it all becomes sort of fascinating to think about how we might rebuild, what sort of team we might be, who might hold what position of authority, and so on. I have been a fan when the Pats were a pretty bad team. It was fun then also to be a fan. During the Golden Years, i remember at times almost taking wins for granted. I was more annoyed when we lost than I was happy when we won. At least when you stink, the surprises tend to be more on the upside, so little downside being available for purposes of conjuring the unexpected, lol. Look at that rabid Jet fan Rich Eisen: he' prancing around like a giidy schoolgirl after the Jets beat the Eagles yesterday. If the Jets were a great team, it would have been a fairly ho-hum nice little predictable win and nothing more.

 

[Wax Frog]

Next week is going to be ugly. No point in tanking for a 6ft QB, there’s no viable path to respectability for the next few years. But we had a hell of a run…

Thank you for summing up the (Waxy-subjectively - please don't hurt me if I'm actually wrong!) cumulative mood of the forum so succintly! I will come and read this post once a day to save myself time!

 

[captain stone]

p8ryts: Elaborate.

I believe he's of the school that feels that if only Corky had become the QB we all thought we were getting, the rest of the roster, plus the coaching & management, is good enough to remain competitive & playoff-viable... I could be wrong of course.

 

[Ivan]

This is the way teams should be run even if it means you can't compete at your level best for a year.

Does the lack of an RT hurt us more this year than the lack of Gonzalez at CB? YES, ABSOLUTELY.

But filling the RT position is easier than grabbing a guy like Gonzalez to be your shut down CB.

What are we building for? The Super Bowl or the playoffs? If the playoffs, you take the RT. If the Super Bowl, you take Gonzalez.

Having a guy who can potentially become a Revis, Gilmore, Ty Law type is much more important than having a Cannon or a Vollmer.

I feel this way about Mac. Sure, he may look like he can be an average QB if he had more weapons and more time behind the line. But at crunch time, when the defenses are going at you full throttle, he doesn't have the arm or the composure to withstand the brutal assault of a good playoff defense. We've seen both Brady and Mahomes stoned by such defenses. Mac wouldn't stand a chance. (I'm not saying we need Mahomes or Brady). We need a guy who can stand in there at the most crucial moments and deliver. Plenty of mediocre QB have done so in the past (just take a look at the list This is the way teams should be run even if it means you suck for a couple of years.

Does the lack of an RT hurt us more this year than the lack of Gonzalez at CB? YES, ABSOLUTELY.

But filling the RT position is easier than grabbing a guy like Gonzalez to be your shut down CB.

What are we building for? The Super Bowl or the playoffs? If the playoffs, you take the RT. If the Super Bowl, you take Gonzalez.

Having a guy who can potentially become a Revis, Gilmore, Ty Law type is much more important than having a Cannon or a Vollmer.

I feel this way about Mac. Sure, he may look like he can be a average QB if he had more weapons and more time behind the line. But at crunch time, when the defenses are going at you full throttle, he doesn't have the arm or the composure to withstand the brutal assault of a good playoff defense. We've seen both Brady and Mahomes stoned by such defenses. Mac wouldn't stand a chance. (I'm not saying we need Mahomes or Brady). We need a guy who can stand in there at the most crucial moments and deliver. Plenty of mediocre QB have done so in the past (just take a look at the list of Super Bowl QBs).

I obviously agree with you, and I think that your point about what a team builds to is really important. Every off-season people are focused upon filling the most glaring needs, regardless of where they are at in terms of their overall situation. If you are a clear playoff caliber team that is a few players away from a serious shot at a Lombardi then filling those needs could make the most sense. However if you aren’t in that conversation then you should be looking to add the best possible players to add to the players you already have that you believe are already very good. This is particularly true for the draft, as those players generally aren’t going to make the big difference for at least a year or two. I understand why many here wanted them to address tackle in the first round of the 23’ draft, but that draft was really weak at tackle, and strong at other positions. Given that, and where they were picking I don’t think they could have done any better than the Gonzalez pick, as he should have been off of the board in the top 6 picks. That they were able to get Keion White in the 2nd round made this draft even better, as he was also a clear 1st round value. So while they may not have addressed their need at tackle they were able to pick up two of the best players in this draft in the first two rounds, and that’s how you build a real contender. And if we are looking at this team honestly they aren’t going to be a true contender until they have a QB that can compete against the best teams in football, so they should continue to try and build with the very best players they can get, and less on glaring needs.

 

[rkarp1]

I do not think the future is bleak. fortunes change quickly in the NFL.
the team has a great opportunity with both draft capital and available money. the team also has some very, very good young players
questions about the future;
1) who will captain the ship?
2) do players want to play here?
3) are the current young core improving?

 

[Thelonious]

I believe he's of the school that feels that if only Corky had become the QB we all thought we were getting, the rest of the roster, plus the coaching & management, is good enough to remain competitive & playoff-viable... I could be wrong of course.

Fair enough. I guess we're just miles apart on our evaluation of the roster, particularly on offense. I don't there are even the makings of a winning roster on that side. Because Bill has done such an historically incompetent job of putting Mac in a position such that we can objectively evaluate him, I think that even at this late date we really only have a vague idea as to what he really might be. The evidence to this point is not promising, but the quality of that evidence blows, thanks to Bill. So we have to start over, which might or not be fun.

 

[captain stone]

Fair enough. I guess we're just miles apart on our evaluation of the roster, particularly on offense. I don't there are even the makings of a winning roster on that side. Because Bill has done such an historically incompetent job of putting Mac in a position such that we can objectively evaluate him, I think that even at this late date we really only have a vague idea as to what he really might be. The evidence to this point is not promising, but the quality of that evidence blows, thanks to Bill. So we have to start over, which might or not be fun.

Yep, Bill’s made Corky one helluva **** sammich and he needs to have his executive washroom keys taken from him ASAP; Corky unfortunately isn’t anywhere close to being tough enough to take a bite, wipe his chin & ask for another…In fact I have NEVER seen a professional QB act WORSE when facing adversity than this one. His Anti-leadership oozes from his pores with every turnover, sack & Line to Gain not gained he lets happen. He makes Eason look like Grogan; and for those like us who’ve seen all 3 of them play, that’s as bad an indictment as it gets.

 

[DaBruinz]

What does a QB matter if you don't have a line to protect him.

The fact that the Pats line hasn't stayed healthy AND that they haven't found a viable RT is really telling,

I almost wonder if they've tried Lowe at LT and Brown at RT what would happen? Other than Brown whining...

 

[Tunescribe]

What does a QB matter if you don't have a line to protect him.

The fact that the Pats line hasn't stayed healthy AND that they haven't found a viable RT is really telling,

I almost wonder if they've tried Lowe at LT and Brown at RT what would happen? Other than Brown whining...

Lowe is worse than a turnstile at right tackle. Look for him to replaced soon, perhaps by McDermott this week.