My problem with Bill Belichick as a coach

[sambam94]

it's mostly a talent issue, but when your not spending at RB and WR, you would think they could have added a few playmakers along the way.

 

[DaBruinz]

Not fully relevant to your post, but I really don't like the "no talent at the end of the round" argument. Sure, it's more difficult to hit on those pics, but there's plenty of talent there.

Starting from 2015, the last time before this year we had a 1st rounder: Landon Collins, Devin Funchess, Jalen Collins, Bernardrick McKinney, and Eric Kendricks could have all been realistic targets for the 1st. Tyler Lockett, Tevin Coleman, Duke Johnson, Jordan Hicks, Tyler Kroft, and David Johnson realistic for the 2nd. Daryl Williams, Jamison Crowder with a few spots of Geneo Grissom in the 3rd. 4th was hit in both rounds. Grady Jarrett, Adrian Amos, Stefon Diggs, Jay Ajayi, Cedric Thompson all in the 5th round. Obviously, we didn't all know that they would be good players, but there's always talent - the team just has to find it.

In 2014, our 1st was a big bust. Others within a reasonable space were Bradley Roby, DeMarcus Lawrence, Joel Bitonio, Jordan Matthews, Lamarcus Joyner, Weston Richburg, Tuitt, Trent Murphy, Jernigan, D. Adams. 2nd was hit... I guess, but players like Christian Kirksey, Trent Murphy, Gabe Jackson were also near there. By our next pick, we could've gone with Martavis Bryant or Tre Boston. Players that we could've easily gotten if necessary later include Telvin Smith, Aaron Lynch, EJ Gaines, Duvernay-Tardif, Enunwa, etc. Again, not star talent everywhere, but we could've gotten key players despite our position.

2013, Instead of Dobson with our 2nd rder, we coulda gone Kelce, Lacy, Mathieu, Terron Armstead, Keenan Allen just a bit away. In the 4th, Alex Okafor, David Bakhtiari, Gerald Hodges were also there and taken within a dozen or so picks.

2016, rather than Cyrus Jones with the 2nd rounder, we coulda gone Byard, Ngakoue, Kenyan Drake, all within 15 picks later. Instead of Valentine, Justin Simmons, Joe Schobert were there. Sprinkle Tyreek Hill in there too.

Overall:
Cyrus Jones -> Yannick Ngakoue
Malcolm Brown -> Bernardick McKinney or Landon Collins
Jordan Richards -> Danielle Hunter or David Johnson
Geneo Grisson - Daryl Williams
Tre Jackson - Stefon Diggs or Grady Jarrett
Dominique Easley -> DeMarcus Lawrence
Bryan Stork -> Martavis Bryant
Cam Fleming -> Telvin Smith
Dobson -> Kelce or Allen or Mathieu

Pick 2 or 3 of those swaps and this team looks different. There is talent around the draft, even within a dozen spots of where we may make a bust draft pick.

The entire basis of your argument is flawed in that you have no clue how those players would have done with the Patriots, not to mention you're looking at it with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

OH. I think it's laughable you include Bryant who is currently suspended for a year..

EDIT: You also seem to forget that without Cam Fleming, we don't win the SB in 2016 and we don't make it to the SB last year. But, hey, keep up the great work..

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I know this post isn't going to get me a lot of likes. Probably a lot of dislikes if anything. So first let me say the following.

#1 Bill Belichick is the best coach in NFL history. There is no coach I'd rather have.
#2 Bill has had to build this team mostly picking at the bottom of the draft. That no doubt effects the quality of talent you can put out on the field.
#3 Bill probably builds his scheme with #2 in mind.

Okay, now lets move along. There is something about Bill Belichick teams coached defenses in recent years to me that just seems to miss the mark. When I look at other great defenses around the league there seems to always be one complaint that sticks out that we often here. Bill's Ds don't attack and that puts them on the back foot. If you are not attacking you are reacting. Such a scheme allows players like Blake Bortles and Nick Foles to have amazing games against you at times. On the upside it usually means you don't give up the big play often.

I want to focus on Bill's HC days in New England.

2000-2007 years - This to me and most people here was the golden age of the Patriots Defense. Particularly the dynasty years. So here is my question. Why can't this seem to be repeated? One of the reasons is no doubt the talent this team fielded on D as well dirt cheap probowl QB play allowed them to spend more on that side of the ball and other places. But I think there is something more too it.

One of the things that I theorize made this D better than the current ones is this: The key players in this group were not developed under Bill Belichick. Even the ones that were, such as Seymour, had a room full of vets they could look up to and learn from that weren't taught as a rookie to do it Bill's way. I think there's something to that.

Look as Bruschi's 2004 interview post 2004 AFCCG. "We play, that's what we do. We don't talk. We play. You come to Foxboro, its gonna be snowing, its gonna be cold. Come on in here! you wanna say all you want? You wanna change the rules? Change them! We still play, and we win."

Can you imagine ANY player coached under BB these days saying something like that? Nope. Why not? Cause they were taught from day 1 since being drafted to keep their trap shut to the media. Bruschi was told that too. The difference is he didn't hear it as a rookie. He learned to play under someone else and only later under BB's scheme and coaching was his full talent unleashed. But there was an attitude and swagger there.

This is the main issue BB has as a coach. He systematically beats the swagger and attitude out of his players from day one. He wants his guys to play the system. Do their job. Don't talk. Get back and don't do anything they aren't told.

There isn't anything wrong with that system. It has worked with varying success over a VERY LONG period of time. But the time when it works the best is when you have players who understand what you are telling them to do, but then see a play to be made and have the balls to try to go and make it. Who don't talk too much but aren't afraid to show attitude and punch someone else in the mouth. Who know its a bad idea to take a penalty but aren't afraid to lay the wood on someone, even if it means a free 15 yards.

Rodney Harrison is the best free agent BB ever brought in here on defense IMO and I think most would agree. Why that worked is so well is for a few reasons. Harrison understood what BB wanted to do. Harrison mostly did it. Harrison is a great player. The other reason it worked so well is because Harrison at times did things BB didn't preach. He talked trash. He set a tone. He hit hard and made offensive players scared to go near him. He played with a swagger and attitude that was instilled into him by his success of doing it his way and having it work for him before BB got him here.

This isn't to say he played outside the defensive system. But he wasn't afraid to trust his instincts, not do his assigned job and take a risk when he felt it was the right thing to do that play. And he was usually right to do it.

Lets take a look at the best defensive players BB ever developed.

Seymour - An all pro player but one whose job was mostly to take up 2 guys. This is a good player but not the guy who makes a game winning play often.

Wilfork - A great nose tackle who took up space and held/pushed the pocket well. This is a good player but not the guy who makes a game winning play often.

Vrabel - He player 4 years in Pitt but really came into his own here. He learned a lot under BB but also had mentors such as McGinest, Johnson and Bruschi. He did occasionally make game winning players but he was partly brought up in a different culture than the BB one due to his days in Pitt and having successful players that mentored him that weren't brought up in BB's culture.

McCourty - A very good safety (but failed CB) who plays back and tends to prevent big plays. He is more the guy who tries to prevent a play than make a play.

Hightower - A very good run stuffing LB who has shown some good pass rush at times. He has made game changing plays.

Jones - A very good DE but has had his best year with his new team.

Samuel - He is probably the best CB BB ever developed here. He also got a reputation as a risk taker and gambler which is something BB hates. One of the only players who could play within the system but not be afraid to take risk. BB let him go in 2008

May0 - A tackling machine but not a play maker.

Most of the best defensive players BB developed are not the guys you ask to make the big play in the big moment. They are more about holding the line and getting back to prevent a bigger play from being made.

We need to remember that this was not the norm in those early golden years. This was a D that often got after it, hit hard and set the tone. It played with a calculated aggressive. It played within the confines of what BB wanted them to do and they were smart enough to understand that. But at times they also just let it rip and played ball.

That is something almost all the players BB mentored from day 1 have lacked, and I don't think it is purely a talent issue. I think it come from BB getting to into a players head and making them robotic and reactive as opposed to proactive.

Now that the roster has completely turned over and all influence of those pre-BB players are gone we are seeing how this D looks. And it frankly hasn't been good enough.

in 2014 the Pats finally managed to break through after bring into Revis/Browner. Not to mention the heroics of Brown. Let's not forgot this game was won 28-24. To lose they would have had to give up 31 points to a young and fairly lackluster run first offense. And they almost did. They had 1 great play but giving up 31 points to that offense would have been considered a below average defensive performance.

In 2016 they won with a very improbably comeback. The 2016 D was the best D ever built by Belichick with mostly BB players. Giving up only 21 defensive points is a great feat here and tat alone may shoot a massive hole into my argument. However a few things are worth pointing out. Matt Ryan the the Falcons offensive massively choked this game away. Time and again the let chances slip through their fingers to put points on the board. They played passively when they should have played aggressive and aggressive when they should have played passive. Also they didn't even run the clock down.

I am not trying to say they didn't earn those championships cause they did. But they weren't IMO as much amazing defensive performances as much as making 1 big play each game and giving up big plays but having things fall their way at times too. I felt like a lot was left to be desired in those D performances. And has been for a while.

The problem is I don't know what they can do to fix this. You don't let BB walk but I think it is one of the only holes he has a a coach. No one is perfect though.

You should know by now this place is a popularity contest/group-think when it comes to likes/dislikes.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

The entire basis of your argument is flawed in that you have no clue how those players would have done with the Patriots, not to mention you're looking at it with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

OH. I think it's laughable you include Bryant who is currently suspended for a year..

EDIT: You also seem to forget that without Cam Fleming, we don't win the SB in 2016 and we don't make it to the SB last year. But, hey, keep up the great work..

Not flawed at all if you thought those players were hits before the draft. In other words if you were high on D-Law, Jarrett, Yannick, Diggs etc

How they would have done, been used w NE is fair I guess.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

To add to the OP's point #2, not only do they draft at the bottom every year, they had 2 first round picks and a 4th rounder stolen by the league....
You can go to any draft years after and look at 15 picks later and find one you'd rather have.... Hindsight is 20/20 an using that type of analysis isn't a 1 on 1 comparison but a 15 on 1 comparison. Look at some of the others picked at the point in the draft that were busts and realize the team could have drafted them....

 

[RobertWeathers]

I know this post isn't going to get me a lot of likes. Probably a lot of dislikes if anything. So first let me say the following.

#1 Bill Belichick is the best coach in NFL history. There is no coach I'd rather have.
#2 Bill has had to build this team mostly picking at the bottom of the draft. That no doubt effects the quality of talent you can put out on the field.
#3 Bill probably builds his scheme with #2 in mind.

Okay, now lets move along. There is something about Bill Belichick teams coached defenses in recent years to me that just seems to miss the mark. When I look at other great defenses around the league there seems to always be one complaint that sticks out that we often here. Bill's Ds don't attack and that puts them on the back foot. If you are not attacking you are reacting. Such a scheme allows players like Blake Bortles and Nick Foles to have amazing games against you at times. On the upside it usually means you don't give up the big play often.

I want to focus on Bill's HC days in New England.

2000-2007 years - This to me and most people here was the golden age of the Patriots Defense. Particularly the dynasty years. So here is my question. Why can't this seem to be repeated? One of the reasons is no doubt the talent this team fielded on D as well dirt cheap probowl QB play allowed them to spend more on that side of the ball and other places. But I think there is something more too it.

One of the things that I theorize made this D better than the current ones is this: The key players in this group were not developed under Bill Belichick. Even the ones that were, such as Seymour, had a room full of vets they could look up to and learn from that weren't taught as a rookie to do it Bill's way. I think there's something to that.

Look as Bruschi's 2004 interview post 2004 AFCCG. "We play, that's what we do. We don't talk. We play. You come to Foxboro, its gonna be snowing, its gonna be cold. Come on in here! you wanna say all you want? You wanna change the rules? Change them! We still play, and we win."

Can you imagine ANY player coached under BB these days saying something like that? Nope. Why not? Cause they were taught from day 1 since being drafted to keep their trap shut to the media. Bruschi was told that too. The difference is he didn't hear it as a rookie. He learned to play under someone else and only later under BB's scheme and coaching was his full talent unleashed. But there was an attitude and swagger there.

This is the main issue BB has as a coach. He systematically beats the swagger and attitude out of his players from day one. He wants his guys to play the system. Do their job. Don't talk. Get back and don't do anything they aren't told.

There isn't anything wrong with that system. It has worked with varying success over a VERY LONG period of time. But the time when it works the best is when you have players who understand what you are telling them to do, but then see a play to be made and have the balls to try to go and make it. Who don't talk too much but aren't afraid to show attitude and punch someone else in the mouth. Who know its a bad idea to take a penalty but aren't afraid to lay the wood on someone, even if it means a free 15 yards.

Rodney Harrison is the best free agent BB ever brought in here on defense IMO and I think most would agree. Why that worked is so well is for a few reasons. Harrison understood what BB wanted to do. Harrison mostly did it. Harrison is a great player. The other reason it worked so well is because Harrison at times did things BB didn't preach. He talked trash. He set a tone. He hit hard and made offensive players scared to go near him. He played with a swagger and attitude that was instilled into him by his success of doing it his way and having it work for him before BB got him here.

This isn't to say he played outside the defensive system. But he wasn't afraid to trust his instincts, not do his assigned job and take a risk when he felt it was the right thing to do that play. And he was usually right to do it.

Lets take a look at the best defensive players BB ever developed.

Seymour - An all pro player but one whose job was mostly to take up 2 guys. This is a good player but not the guy who makes a game winning play often.

Wilfork - A great nose tackle who took up space and held/pushed the pocket well. This is a good player but not the guy who makes a game winning play often.

Vrabel - He player 4 years in Pitt but really came into his own here. He learned a lot under BB but also had mentors such as McGinest, Johnson and Bruschi. He did occasionally make game winning players but he was partly brought up in a different culture than the BB one due to his days in Pitt and having successful players that mentored him that weren't brought up in BB's culture.

McCourty - A very good safety (but failed CB) who plays back and tends to prevent big plays. He is more the guy who tries to prevent a play than make a play.

Hightower - A very good run stuffing LB who has shown some good pass rush at times. He has made game changing plays.

Jones - A very good DE but has had his best year with his new team.

Samuel - He is probably the best CB BB ever developed here. He also got a reputation as a risk taker and gambler which is something BB hates. One of the only players who could play within the system but not be afraid to take risk. BB let him go in 2008

May0 - A tackling machine but not a play maker.

Most of the best defensive players BB developed are not the guys you ask to make the big play in the big moment. They are more about holding the line and getting back to prevent a bigger play from being made.

We need to remember that this was not the norm in those early golden years. This was a D that often got after it, hit hard and set the tone. It played with a calculated aggressive. It played within the confines of what BB wanted them to do and they were smart enough to understand that. But at times they also just let it rip and played ball.

That is something almost all the players BB mentored from day 1 have lacked, and I don't think it is purely a talent issue. I think it come from BB getting to into a players head and making them robotic and reactive as opposed to proactive.

Now that the roster has completely turned over and all influence of those pre-BB players are gone we are seeing how this D looks. And it frankly hasn't been good enough.

in 2014 the Pats finally managed to break through after bring into Revis/Browner. Not to mention the heroics of Brown. Let's not forgot this game was won 28-24. To lose they would have had to give up 31 points to a young and fairly lackluster run first offense. And they almost did. They had 1 great play but giving up 31 points to that offense would have been considered a below average defensive performance.

In 2016 they won with a very improbably comeback. The 2016 D was the best D ever built by Belichick with mostly BB players. Giving up only 21 defensive points is a great feat here and tat alone may shoot a massive hole into my argument. However a few things are worth pointing out. Matt Ryan the the Falcons offensive massively choked this game away. Time and again the let chances slip through their fingers to put points on the board. They played passively when they should have played aggressive and aggressive when they should have played passive. Also they didn't even run the clock down.

I am not trying to say they didn't earn those championships cause they did. But they weren't IMO as much amazing defensive performances as much as making 1 big play each game and giving up big plays but having things fall their way at times too. I felt like a lot was left to be desired in those D performances. And has been for a while.

The problem is I don't know what they can do to fix this. You don't let BB walk but I think it is one of the only holes he has a a coach. No one is perfect though.

So you are complaining about 5 Super Bowls worth of talent on defense that didn't play with a style and swagger to your liking ?

Cmon man...

 

[Triumph]

Somebody has an issue with a 5 time Super Bowl winning Head Coach?

Really?

BB turns his players into professionals. Not these showboating idiots celebrating ever y reception or 1st down. His players dont back talk to the Refs. Rarely does a guy go off the rails and make a dirty play. Gronk every so often goes nuts and does something he shouldnt, but he is not a dirty SOB like Travis Kelce.

How would like Micky Tomlin instead? A clueless cheerleader who has wasted Big Bens best seasons and all the hard work the Steelers front office has done to field him a playoff team virtually every season. 1 - 1 in Super Bowls and his only Lombardi came via Bill Cowers team.

I for one am proud of the way the patriot players conduct themselves. After every catch or big play, they just hand the ball to Refs and head back to the sideline of huddle.

 

[Triumph]

The defense was also playing good at that moment.

I tell my wife if I was a head NFL coach I would go for it every 4th down just like I do in Madden.

Have you considered sending your resume to Bob Kraft?

Belichick wont be coaching forever and I would like someone lined up for the job.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Let me know when the book comes out. The Patriots draft at the bottom every year, yet are more successful than teams who get first pick of the talent.

That's because they try not to give up easy scores. They are patient. You want them to have "amazing performances" at the risk of giving up easy touchdowns instead of boringly allowing teams yardage and no score, or maybe a field goal.

This is how we consistently give up yards where it doesn't matter instead of scores.

There are lots of teams that are exciting in the first half and lose a lot, if that's what you want.

The 4th and inches call the other day was bad. I can't believe there were posters here defending that call. Down by 2 scores with 8 minutes left, with your gassed D and the best sneak QB ever? It was INCHES!!!!

I think BB is amazing to change up his “D first” philosophy and win two more SBs years later with an O leading the way.

BB’s willingness to adapt is what keeps them on top.

OK, so BB's made some boo-boos.

Who, among us, hasn't done something at one time or another we regretted?

Harvard Stadium, November 15, 1970:

First half, Chargers with the ball, six-year-old in stands stands up and shouts:

"Hold 'em, Hahvahd!!"

"...Wait...today's Sunday? Oh."

"Um...Nevermind!!"

 

[Ring 6]

Please list all the coaches who are winning multiple championships by attacking on defense.

 

[Triumph]

My only real pet peeve of Bill the coach is that lately, seemingly since 4th and 2, he's been too conservative on 4th down. The mystics and statistics say that he should go for it more often.

BB has lost his swagger.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Have you considered sending your resume to Bob Kraft?

Belichick wont be coaching forever and I would like someone lined up for the job.

OK you totally know what condition I would demand if he wanted me.

Yeah this totally makes up for everything...

 

[DaBruinz]

Not flawed at all if you thought those players were hits before the draft. In other words if you were high on D-Law, Jarrett, Yannick, Diggs etc

How they would have done, been used w NE is fair I guess.

It's flawed because no one knows if those players he mentioned were actually on the Patriots draft list. People seem to overlook the fact that the Patriots go into the draft with a very small list of players typically on their draft board. I believe it's less than 100. And their board takes into consideration how the players did during interviews and working with the coaches and stuff. Things that we don't get to hear about.

Looking at things in hindsight and ignoring the intangibles that we never hear about is the surest way to present a flawed argument.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Please list all the coaches who are winning multiple championships by attacking on defense.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

BB has lost his swagger.

 

[Deus Irae]

• The Patriots haven't hit on a first round pick since 2013 (Jones, Hightower)
• The Patriots have only hit on one second round pick since 2012, and that was a QB (JAG)

(If I missed someone in the above, my apologies, but I was posting quickly from memory and not double checking)

If you want to ***** about BB, that's where to start.

BB screwed the team out of a SB win last year, for whatever reason, and he's reportedly allowed his QB, the G.O.A.T., to become disillusioned.

If you want to ***** about BB the coach, that's where to start.


I hate that the team is little more than a bunch of automatons when it comes to public commentary, but that goes beyond BB. That's also a product of the NFL fining players for things it doesn't like, the fans screaming at players who say something they don't like, and the media/politically inclined railing at players who say something they don't like.

And, it's not as if Talib became a withering flower in New England.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

It's flawed because no one knows if those players he mentioned were actually on the Patriots draft list. People seem to overlook the fact that the Patriots go into the draft with a very small list of players typically on their draft board. I believe it's less than 100. And their board takes into consideration how the players did during interviews and working with the coaches and stuff. Things that we don't get to hear about.

Looking at things in hindsight and ignoring the intangibles that we never hear about is the surest way to present a flawed argument.

Well aware of how they approach the draft, more than most tbh.

I was specifically speaking to player X > player Y. That's not hindsight if you were higher on the prospect before the draft.

Again I understand more than most the Patriots look for certain players at certain positions.

 

[HailHydra]

The entire basis of your argument is flawed in that you have no clue how those players would have done with the Patriots, not to mention you're looking at it with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

OH. I think it's laughable you include Bryant who is currently suspended for a year..

EDIT: You also seem to forget that without Cam Fleming, we don't win the SB in 2016 and we don't make it to the SB last year. But, hey, keep up the great work..

Talent is talent, and as of now, we are lacking talent on defense. It isn't a stretch to think that taking DeMarcus Lawrence would have significantly eased our pass rushing woes, as compared to taking Easley. Lawrence was taken in the 30s as well. They were similar talent-wise. Is pass rusher a position that being a superstar on the Cowboys can take you to anything less than a solid starter on another team? I don't think so. QB sure. RB to an extent. But not pass rusher.

Hindsight isn't an argument you can use. NFL scouts are expected to go into the draft with a clear plan of how talented some of their team's draft picks are (1st, 2nd, 3rd round at least). Teams don't guess when they draft that high - they have a reason to pick certain players based on their scouting and even down near the bottom of each round, there's still plenty of talent left. You suddenly don't become a star in the NFL if you don't show flashes of it in college, or to other NFL teams. Back when we took Aaron Dobson, Keenan Allen wasn't a random player. He may not have been as dominant as he is now, but he was likely very good, and had a skillset superior to Dobson (Allen was taken a few picks after Dobson). For a team that picks very low in each round, scouts need to be able to be able to understand who the good players are, and who the not so great players are.

Your other comments - Martavis Bryant was a very good WR for the Steelers for 3 seasons even with his suspensions included - he had 1917 yards over those 3 seasons despite being surrounded by serious talent. Would I take him over Bryan Stork who was only a mediocre starter for 1 year, 2 years here before being upended by Andrews? Yeah. And talking about hindsight... we wouldn't have won the Super Bowl without Cam Fleming? Marcus Cannon started that game, Cam Fleming isn't relevant on our roster anymore, and the reason why we were in the 28-3 deficit was because our defense was giving up scores. Again, if we were able to find a guy who could help out that defense, like a Telvin Smith, we might not have been in as bad a situation.

I explicitly stated that I don't every expect the Patriots to draft perfectly at the bottom of each round. But at the bottom of the first round, second round, etc. there's serious talent that we miss out on - talent that could become high end starters for us. Sure, picking low isn't ideal, but we can still get what we need there - if the right players are identified.

 

[DaBruinz]

• The Patriots haven't hit on a first round pick since 2013 (Jones, Hightower)
• The Patriots have only hit on one second round pick since 2012, and that was a QB (JAG)

(If I missed someone in the above, my apologies, but I was posting quickly from memory and not double checking)

If you want to ***** about BB, that's where to start.

BB screwed the team out of a SB win last year, for whatever reason, and he's reportedly allowed his QB, the G.O.A.T., to become disillusioned.

If you want to ***** about BB the coach, that's where to start.


I hate that the team is little more than a bunch of automatons when it comes to public commentary, but that goes beyond BB. That's also a product of the NFL fining players for things it doesn't like, the fans screaming at players who say something they don't like, and the media/politically inclined railing at players who say something they don't like.

And, it's not as if Talib became a withering flower in New England.

Malcolm Brown says HI.. 1st round pick 2015. They didn't have a 1st round pick in 2013, 2016 or 2017.

Jamie Collins was a 2nd round pick in 2013. Guess you don't count him..

 

[HailHydra]

It's flawed because no one knows if those players he mentioned were actually on the Patriots draft list. People seem to overlook the fact that the Patriots go into the draft with a very small list of players typically on their draft board. I believe it's less than 100. And their board takes into consideration how the players did during interviews and working with the coaches and stuff. Things that we don't get to hear about.

Looking at things in hindsight and ignoring the intangibles that we never hear about is the surest way to present a flawed argument.

Then the Patriots need to open up a little bit on their draft board, since consideration of how our 1st round talent players are doing during interviews isn't exactly making us hit on them.