My $0.02 on the crowd

[JoeSixPat]

Listen dude, I don't have the patience to find it - but you posted it. In this thread - unless you've made an edit....actually another poster called you out on it too.

Whatever. Go on and rant about the injustices of booing a game that you were no where near. I'm done with this ridiculous thread and shame on me for posting in it as much as I did.

I KNOW every fan is different has their own idea of what a fan is..and then there is the sort of mob mentality..group think that fits in as well as any alcohol use. It is complex though but I think rather interesting.

Actually to be fair I think Pats726 is correct in his denial that he said anything about drunk fans booing in this thread - however he did say the above in his other thread about booing and fandom, which obviously he forgot about.

 

[Connecticut]

Can you boo for a few mistakes here and there? Course not.. at least you shouldnt


Can you boo if your defense cant make a stop to save their lives and seemingly give up before the game is over? Can you boo when "some" of your receivers take plays off? You bet

 

[Theplayer]

I think that fans have a right to act however they want. I think that fans also need to recognize that they contribute to the identity of their team.
The fans that booed the Pats as they lost to end a 21 game winning streak embarrassed the rest of the fans of this team, because they spoke nationally for all of us.
The message they sent: EVERYTHING THIS TEAM HAS DONE IS FORGOTTEN BY THE FANS AS SOON AS THEY PLAY POORLY.
Thats it end of story. Booing a team indicates disgust with them. If the entire fan base of the New England Patriots is justified to be disgusted by anything that happens in one day after what the team has done over the last 7 years, then I am disgusted to be part of it.
It was immature, disrespectful, and thankless.

disagree..booing is showing disgust with the current game..it has nothing to do with the past.

 

[Theplayer]

Ellis Hobbs is 100% right. If you don't like it you were probably one of the ones boo'ing. They lose one game, have one bad day, and suddenly all their success amounts to nothing? What did you expect 16-0 seasons every year?

Give me a break.

The Pats fanbase is horrid.

again..I think you miss the point on booing...it has nothing to do with the past..people are booing the current situation. If the coaching staff can't adjust to a new look and are getting run over on every play, people will boo. Do you really think that diminishes past accomplishments?

 

[JoeSixPat]

Can you boo for a few mistakes here and there? Course not.. at least you shouldn't


Can you boo if your defense cant make a stop to save their lives and seemingly give up before the game is over? Can you boo when "some" of your receivers take plays off? You bet

You won't have any luck getting AJ, Pats726, Tunescribe or others to acknowledge that.

In fact, as noted about Pats726 actually believes that any Patriots fan booing hates the team as much as, say a Jets fan booing the patriots. He refuses to acknowledge that good fans can boo poor or less than 100% performance (and he requires that you be able to have proof they took a play off or didn't give 100% as well)

All of this is based on the notion that there never has been, never will be, and never could be a situation where booing actually served as a wake up call to players or a team. They won't acknowledge that coaches often do exactly that with players just as Parcells did with Terry Glen, because if they admit that a player can be prompted to improve with negative feedback, they have to admit that collective players - i.e. the team - could do the same.

 

[Connecticut]

You know it amazes me how much crap fans take from the media and players over here in the U.S. I'm from former Yugoslavia originally and say what you will about soccer, the fans in Europe are crazy. They will run players out of the building if they don't give it their 100% in every match, and the sport papers will agree most of the time.

 

[Tunescribe]

All of this is based on the notion that there never has been, never will be, and never could be a situation where booing actually served as a wake up call to players or a team. They won't acknowledge that coaches often do exactly that with players just as Parcells did with Terry Glen, because if they admit that a player can be prompted to improve with negative feedback, they have to admit that collective players - i.e. the team - could do the same.

There is one essential difference between a coach using negative reinforcement to get a message across to his player(s), and fans booing: THE COACH KNOWS WHAT'S GOING ON, AND WHY. Booing does not motivate players or make them try harder/perform better/man-up/reach down deeper. I know this for a fact, as noted before in this and other threads on the subject. It's just nonsense to believe that booing "sends a message" that is heeded in any way, shape or form by anyone in a professional sports organization. All booing does, plain and simple, is give voice to one's own petulant frustrations.

 

[Ring 6]

disagree..booing is showing disgust with the current game..it has nothing to do with the past.

I do not agree.
Ellis Hobbs does not either.

Ultimately what I think or you think is only a guess, but Hobbs is a player, and he says it has to do with the past.

Which is a lot of my point.

BOOING is being made out here as a harmless, meaningless option. (i.e. you have to cheer or boo, so if its bad you boo) but that is not the case. BOOING is a rash, severe reaction.
It is a message of EXTREME displeasure.
For this fan base to reach the point of EXTREME DISPLEASURE and give the HARSHEST POSSIBLE criticism at halftime of this game, given the success this team has had is childish, disrespectful, and thankless.


By the way,to suggest that a fan booing has any means of resemblence to a coach giving negatvie reinforcement to a player is moronic.
Thats like saying instead of having my childrens teacher keep him in from recess if he doesn't pay attention in class (thereby to motivate with negative reinforcement) we are just going to have all the other kids in the class laugh at, tease and pick on him.

 

[Connecticut]

I don't know if the metaphor about school children is a good one. That would suggest the fans are the players' peers, which isn't the case. We're not on that field, we're in the stands.

However, I do agree that booing is a severe reaction, especially in football. I'm not saying I do it, all I'm saying is give those fans that booed a break, especially with that performance against the Fins.

 

[Garbanza]

I do not agree.
Ellis Hobbs does not either.

Ultimately what I think or you think is only a guess, but Hobbs is a player, and he says it has to do with the past.

Which is a lot of my point.

BOOING is being made out here as a harmless, meaningless option. (i.e. you have to cheer or boo, so if its bad you boo) but that is not the case. BOOING is a rash, severe reaction.
It is a message of EXTREME displeasure.
For this fan base to reach the point of EXTREME DISPLEASURE and give the HARSHEST POSSIBLE criticism at halftime of this game, given the success this team has had is childish, disrespectful, and thankless.


By the way,to suggest that a fan booing has any means of resemblence to a coach giving negatvie reinforcement to a player is moronic.
Thats like saying instead of having my childrens teacher keep him in from recess if he doesn't pay attention in class (thereby to motivate with negative reinforcement) we are just going to have all the other kids in the class laugh at, tease and pick on him.

Hobbs agrees with you? So Hobbs is the harbinger of class now? Is it classy to showboat after a tackle? Just wondering....

I fear for the future of this country because CLEARLY we have turned into a thin-skinned whiney bunch.

 

[JAYHAWKS34]

Ellis Hobbs does not either.

.

really, i'm not sure how that can be a fact

 

[Spudsy]

I think some of the crowd is just to motivated. I get scared sometimes when I do not wear patriot colors or my jerseys into the stadium. Some of our fans are just looking to pick a fight.

 

[JoeSixPat]

There is one essential difference between a coach using negative reinforcement to get a message across to his player(s), and fans booing: THE COACH KNOWS WHAT'S GOING ON, AND WHY. Booing does not motivate players or make them try harder/perform better/man-up/reach down deeper. I know this for a fact, as noted before in this and other threads on the subject. It's just nonsense to believe that booing "sends a message" that is heeded in any way, shape or form by anyone in a professional sports organization. All booing does, plain and simple, is give voice to one's own petulant frustrations.

Well, see now you've changed your notion that there's absolutely, positively no benefit from negative feedback. You acknowledge that it does have a positive benefit when a coach does it - so now you're changing your view, which is fine, because you should change your view.

Aside from that your own 100% assurance that negative feedback (booing) never has a positive consequence flies in the face of your own admission in the previous sentence that players DO respond to negative feedback quite often, just as Terry Glen did.

I'm not even going to bother with the laughable notion that you contend this is a black and white issue and that you "know for a fact" what goes on in the mind of every NFL and/or professional sports player.

But I do appreciate you coming around on the fact that negative feedback can have a positive effect on player performance.

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the Patriots defense plays much better in the next game. You'll of course contend that it has nothing to do with the fans telling them in no uncertain terms that they do NOT believe the Patriots stand for mediocre performances. I'll contend that, indeed, the game, outcome and fan reaction taken together DID serve as a wakeup call.

The truth is usually somewhere in between - and not an absolute "never" and "no players respond to booing" such as you portray

 

[Ring 6]

Hobbs agrees with you? So Hobbs is the harbinger of class now? Is it classy to showboat after a tackle? Just wondering....

I fear for the future of this country because CLEARLY we have turned into a thin-skinned whiney bunch.

Come on, you have to read what you are responding to.

The point was that booing is about today not the past.

The reference to Hobbs was that obviously the players (or at least the only one we can be sure of) do not.

How you can turn that into what you typed that Hobbs is a judge of class?
This is what really blows about this board, people dont even read what they are responding to.

 

[Ring 6]

really, i'm not sure how that can be a fact

Did you read what Hobbs said?
How can you be confused whether he thinks booing is about today or the past is part of it? Its EXACTLY what he was talking about.

 

[Ring 6]

Well, see now you've changed your notion that there's absolutely, positively no benefit from negative feedback. You acknowledge that it does have a positive benefit when a coach does it - so now you're changing your view, which is fine, because you should change your view.

Aside from that your own 100% assurance that negative feedback (booing) never has a positive consequence flies in the face of your own admission in the previous sentence that players DO respond to negative feedback quite often, just as Terry Glen did.

I'm not even going to bother with the laughable notion that you contend this is a black and white issue and that you "know for a fact" what goes on in the mind of every NFL and/or professional sports player.

But I do appreciate you coming around on the fact that negative feedback can have a positive effect on player performance.

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the Patriots defense plays much better in the next game. You'll of course contend that it has nothing to do with the fans telling them in no uncertain terms that they do NOT believe the Patriots stand for mediocre performances. I'll contend that, indeed, the game, outcome and fan reaction taken together DID serve as a wakeup call.

The truth is usually somewhere in between - and not an absolute "never" and "no players respond to booing" such as you portray

I would have to go back and reread Tunescribe's posts, but I'm pretty sure you are making up the part where anyone said negative feedback is not effective. I think a lot of people laughed at you comparing Bill Parcells management techniques to booing though.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I would have to go back and reread Tunescribe's posts, but I'm pretty sure you are making up the part where anyone said negative feedback is not effective. I think a lot of people laughed at you comparing Bill Parcells management techniques to booing though.

Yes - I agree, Bill Parcells publically proclaiming that a male player is actually a female, and not tough seeking to totally and completely humiliate him in front of his teammates, the fans, and the media is a MUCH worse than booing.

I'm sure you were even more up in arms about that than booing, as you've made clear there's NEVER a positive consequence of negative feedback (expect in that case where there was) such as booing.

But of course, I think any laughter you believe you detected via an internet message board (how did you do that?) was likely directed at your denial that fans questioning the toughness and fortitude of a team and a coach questioning the fortitude of a player or team has no comparison whatsoever.

You're entitled to your opinion. I just want you to accept the fact that the good fans who demand 100% effort from the Patriots are also entitled to their opinion, and are just as good and committed fans as you believe yourself to be, cheering the team when they only give 50% effort.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Come on, you have to read what you are responding to.

The point was that booing is about today not the past.

Isn't your whole opposition to booing based on the past performance of the team? That they are coming off a winning streak and therefore shouldn't be booed?

Effectively that they're entitled to rest on their laurels and even a half effort game shouldn't be booed?

 

[Tunescribe]

Well, see now you've changed your notion that there's absolutely, positively no benefit from negative feedback. You acknowledge that it does have a positive benefit when a coach does it - so now you're changing your view, which is fine, because you should change your view.

I've changed nothing about my view. In fact, I've addressed this with you three times. Negative feedback can mean entirely different things depending who/what is being addressed, from whom. Equating booing with what a coach tells his player is moronic.

Aside from that your own 100% assurance that negative feedback (booing) never has a positive consequence flies in the face of your own admission in the previous sentence that players DO respond to negative feedback quite often, just as Terry Glen did.

See above.

I'm not even going to bother with the laughable notion that you contend this is a black and white issue and that you "know for a fact" what goes on in the mind of every NFL and/or professional sports player.

Tell me, how many professional football players have you talked to about this subject, one-to-one? I've spoken with several -- at least a dozen, in which this topic came up specifically. To them, booing means one thing: how ignorant and misguided fans can be. Most of them won't share their opinions publically because of how narrow-minded folks like yourself are. But booing does not motivate them to perform better.

But I do appreciate you coming around on the fact that negative feedback can have a positive effect on player performance.

I never claimed that negative feedback from a coach wouldn't motivate a player to perform better under the right circumstances. Booing simply doesn't. Like I told you several exchanges ago -- it's apples and oranges.

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the Patriots defense plays much better in the next game. You'll of course contend that it has nothing to do with the fans telling them in no uncertain terms that they do NOT believe the Patriots stand for mediocre performances. I'll contend that, indeed, the game, outcome and fan reaction taken together DID serve as a wakeup call.

What will make the Pats defense play better is a solid game plan against San Francisco and necessary in-game adjustments. If you think the fact that they heard boos during the Miami game will make them perform better this coming Sunday, you're living in fantasyland.

The truth is usually somewhere in between - and not an absolute "never" and "no players respond to booing" such as you portray

Get back to me after you've had a chance to speak with NFL players on this topic. Until then, your assertions are pure conjecture and have no real credibility.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I've changed nothing about my view. In fact, I've addressed this with you three times. Negative feedback can mean entirely different things depending who/what is being addressed, from whom. Equating booing with what a coach tells his player is moronic.



See above.



Tell me, how many professional football players have you talked to about this subject, one-to-one? I've spoken with several -- at least a dozen, in which this topic came up specifically. To them, booing means one thing: how ignorant and misguided fans can be. Most of them won't share their opinions publically because of how narrow-minded folks like yourself are. But booing does not motivate them to perform better.



I never claimed that negative feedback from a coach wouldn't motivate a player to perform better under the right circumstances. Booing simply doesn't. Like I told you several exchanges ago -- it's apples and oranges.



What will make the Pats defense play better is a solid game plan against San Francisco and necessary in-game adjustments. If you think the fact that they heard boos during the Miami game will make them perform better this coming Sunday, you're living in fantasyland.



Get back to me after you've had a chance to speak with NFL players on this topic. Until then, your assertions are pure conjecture and have no real credibility.

The hypocrisy is right there for everyone to see. You've gone on and on about how players get no value from negative feedback - then you admit that negative feedback helped Terry Glenn.

The only difference is that fan's booing is pretty light and innocuous compared to a coach attempting to humilate a player in public - both actions, - fans booing lack of effort, and coaches criticizing lack of effort, are both negative feedback, directed towards players giving less than 100%, with the intent to spur those players on to work harder.

In many ways, tough fans with high expectations can be even MORE compelling than having a tough boss with high expectations. Coaches come and go - but the owners know who's paying the bills - and yes, here's a shocker for you - it's the fans.

As far as your assertion that you are an expert on what players in all sports think at all times, knowing exactly when players are and aren't giving 100% (even though you say you would cheer 50% effort) - well, I think I'll just let your assertion speak for itself.