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Patriots Rumor Malcolm Butler Mega Thread

A report indicating the Patriots are potentially in the market for this player, or have expressed or plant to express interest.
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And bademosis miss could’ve ended the drive. Which is what I was saying. His miss contributed to 7 pts instead of an eagles punt.

I agree it could have ended the drive but I also think the other 8 plays led to the TD.
 
I agree it could have ended the drive but I also think the other 8 plays led to the TD.

My point was those 8 plays would’nt have occurred.
 
My point was those 8 plays would’nt have occurred.

I know what you mean and it's not a bad point. You're right that if that tackle is made they punt. I have no problem with that. I'm just saying that you could say that on every set of downs throughout the entire season.
 
I know what you mean and it's not a bad point. You're right that if that tackle is made they punt. I have no problem with that. I'm just saying that you could say that on every set of downs throughout the entire season.

Agreed. Wasn’t arguing that point because your correct. I was just saying those two (Rowe being the other) played a major role in philly getting 14 pts.
 
We make that switch and we give up 250 rushing yards.
Plays dont get stopped because you think they would.
We played a ton of big nickel all season long with Chung covering the slot a lot.

Also butler would have been on Agholor (nowhere near a certainty he does a good job on him even if he was prepared to play) and Rowe on smith.

So if you coach a team that is playing a historically bad defensive game you don’t make any adjustments? Is this some sorta bizarro football game planning? “Hey, what we are doing is failing every single drive, but let’s keep at it!”

Butler was still on the bench in 3rd and long situations when we knew they wouldn’t be running so I don’t buy that excuse. Belichick may be the best of his generation, but he coached a horrible Super Bowl. It’s ok to admit it.
 
So if you coach a team that is playing a historically bad defensive game you don’t make any adjustments? Is this some sorta bizarro football game planning? “Hey, what we are doing is failing every single drive, but let’s keep at it!”

Butler was still on the bench in 3rd and long situations when we knew they wouldn’t be running so I don’t buy that excuse. Belichick may be the best of his generation, but he coached a horrible Super Bowl. It’s ok to admit it.

I guess butler was deemed “normal” enough to play special teams for a snap.
 
So if you coach a team that is playing a historically bad defensive game you don’t make any adjustments? Is this some sorta bizarro football game planning? “Hey, what we are doing is failing every single drive, but let’s keep at it!”
When did I say anything like that? And they made adjustments.
Butler was still on the bench in 3rd and long situations when we knew they wouldn’t be running so I don’t buy that excuse. Belichick may be the best of his generation, but he coached a horrible Super Bowl. It’s ok to admit it.
If you decide before the game that butler isn’t prepared to play the adjustment of putting butler into the game isn’t available to you.
He doesn’t become prepared during the game.
I never said the defensive coaching wasn’t terrible.
 
I guess butler was deemed “normal” enough to play special teams for a snap.
They checked his dial before that play and it was at 82% on the “in” setting. While not 100% dialed in, he was deemed sufficiently dialed in to play that snap. After that it dropped to 78% unfortunately.

You can’t really argue with advanced metrics like that.
 
I didn't know this but I've read elsewhere that all the team captains knew he wasn't starting including McCourty. Not sure if it was damage control or not.

Unless you think Belichick is dumb enough to only tell the team captains and not the guy taking Butler's place and, you know, the rest of the unit about the important change in the game plan and the personnel, it was definitely damage control. I'd put it at a less than 5% chance that the captains knew about it but the rest of the defense didn't. If that IS the case, however, then Belichick should be faulted there as well as that needs to be something that is communicated with the entire unit. If that's not the case, then Belichick should be faulted for being too stubborn to put his best overall unit on the field on spite of the fact that they were getting torn a new one in the first half. So pick your poison.

I disagree. If I don't know the real reason behind the benching then I think it's fair to use BB's past decisions or accomplishments to judge whether or not I'll trust him on this current one. It's not to excuse him for mistakes because I know he's not perfect but I'll take his process or coaching style or decision making over anyone else's in the NFL.

It's not that hard to assume that, whatever it was, it could not have been THAT bad. Butler dressed and BB even let him in on a ST snap. If it was something horrible, such as assaulting a coach, he probably wouldn't have dressed let alone been allowed in on a ST snap. And using past history to excuse this blunder is merely a lazy red herring. It has absolutely zilch to do with this decision in a vacuum. It's also dangerous logic on multiple grounds taking the debate away from football. Would you apply this logic toward government, for example?

They did not deviate from thier 3-4 at all but they did switch coverages in the secondary. I truly think they wanted to force Foles to throw as much as possible and hoped to get enough pressure on him to make a mistake. It happened once. Other than that Foles played like an MVP.

They had to because Rowe, the guy who replaced Butler, was not up to the task of covering Jeffry one on one. The first two series are yet another example of the case in which, had stops been made, it's the difference in the ball game. Butler being in the game means that they can match up differently with receivers like Agholor (who was covered by Chung... lmao) in crunch time and Jeffry. Butler, for all of his warts last year, was still solid against speedier, shiftier wideouts like Agholor. Giving the defense an extra corner means you can put Gilmore on Jeffry and Rowe/Butler on Agholor/Smith with an extra safety shaded to their side up top. Chung then covers Ertz where he surely would have done a better job down the stretch than that stiff Richards. But because coach put discipline ahead of fielding his best available team for the one game that his entire season and career is based upon to win, they were handcuffed back there on top of allowing 164 rushing yards anyway.

I could bring up the Panther game. Butler had 100% snaps in that game and Richards had 0%.. I won't say it was a KC type teabagging job but it was definitely a brew with a few scrotum hairs in it.

There was nothing about their variation of the Big Nickel that was good throughout the entire season. Richards is absolute trash against the pass and he's just as horrific in run support. How many times have we seen him late to the edge going East to West against the run, take a horrible angle and whiff, or get swallowed up by the guard or the tackle getting to the next level? And yet this bum had to play almost 1/4 of the snaps on defense because Belichick decided that the team didn't need an extra corner at its disposal.

I know you don't. I disagree with you but don't think your position is baseless but I prefer to trust that BB had what he thought was a valid reason to put the personnel he chose on the field because he felt it was the best way to win the game and yes part of that belief is based on his past accomplishments. I don't think he put "another" priority before what his ultimate goal should have been. I say that because I don't think Butler broke any rules or violated any pregame curfew or whatever. I truly believe he practiced like **** or not as good as Rowe.

I'm sure he felt that it was a valid reason. But I can't see too many reasons that would warrant benching him for the entire game on defense without not dressing him altogether, let alone letting him in on a ST snap. He was wrong and it cost us in a game in which just one more stop, with the offense setting yardage records and moving the ball almost at will, would have been the difference between an L and a W.
 
But was the team discipline warranted? And if not then why was Butler benched anyway.

You keep asking this as if it hasn't thoroughly been disposed of yet. I'll turn it around. What could have been SO BAD that it warranted benching the guy for the entire game on defense but he was allowed to dress and even get in on a ST snap?
 
You keep asking this as if it hasn't thoroughly been disposed of yet. I'll turn it around. What could have been SO BAD that it warranted benching the guy for the entire game on defense but he was allowed to dress and even get in on a ST snap?


Don't waste your time on him, i've asked this exact question at least a bakers dozen times, and he never answers it, he just spins and spins and spins like a jet fan trying to take pride in making it to the AFCCG
 
Unless you think Belichick is dumb enough to only tell the team captains and not the guy taking Butler's place and, you know, the rest of the unit about the important change in the game plan and the personnel, it was definitely damage control. I'd put it at a less than 5% chance that the captains knew about it but the rest of the defense didn't. If that IS the case, however, then Belichick should be faulted there as well as that needs to be something that is communicated with the entire unit. If that's not the case, then Belichick should be faulted for being too stubborn to put his best overall unit on the field on spite of the fact that they were getting torn a new one in the first half. So pick your poison.

Butler himself said he knew he would have a lesser role. I suspect McCourty knew as well and it wasn't just damage control.

“The week in New England, I knew I’d have a lesser role,” Butler said. “As the week kept going on there with the practices in Minnesota, it was even less.”

https://www.clarionledger.com/story...r-made-rich-titans-nfl-free-agency/427295002/

Rowe was practicing as the #2 corner.


It's not that hard to assume that, whatever it was, it could not have been THAT bad. Butler dressed and BB even let him in on a ST snap. If it was something horrible, such as assaulting a coach, he probably wouldn't have dressed let alone been allowed in on a ST snap. And using past history to excuse this blunder is merely a lazy red herring. It has absolutely zilch to do with this decision in a vacuum. It's also dangerous logic on multiple grounds taking the debate away from football. Would you apply this logic toward government, for example?

I've already said I don't think Butler violated any curfew or that his benching was a punishment. I think it was based on his practice performance and gameplan. BB's past decision making history allows me to trust or not trust the man himself. It's a pretty simple concept. I know what his "shocking" decisions in the past have netted and will continue to trust his decision making process. It doesn't mean he's never wrong it just means that I trust that his decisions are more right than anyone else's has ever been.

You have to apply that "logic" to every aspect of your life at some level. You don't have any sources you'd trust? Mike Reiss over Trollin Volin?

BB made a decision. We don't know why.

They had to because Rowe, the guy who replaced Butler, was not up to the task of covering Jeffry one on one. The first two series are yet another example of the case in which, had stops been made, it's the difference in the ball game. Butler being in the game means that they can match up differently with receivers like Agholor (who was covered by Chung... lmao) in crunch time and Jeffry. Butler, for all of his warts last year, was still solid against speedier, shiftier wideouts like Agholor. Giving the defense an extra corner means you can put Gilmore on Jeffry and Rowe/Butler on Agholor/Smith with an extra safety shaded to their side up top. Chung then covers Ertz where he surely would have done a better job down the stretch than that stiff Richards. But because coach put discipline ahead of fielding his best available team for the one game that his entire season and career is based upon to win, they were handcuffed back there on top of allowing 164 rushing yards anyway.

In principle I agree. But it sounds like what the Viking's #1 or #2 (depending on your trusted source ) top defensive unit tried to do and they got torched. Nick Foles had the post season of his life. Their offensive line played extremely well. I think that's what led to the game plan we saw.

We also don't know what Butler looked like in practice. BB does and made a decision. I think he thought they the right personnel on the field to slow them down enough for Tom Brady. Would they have had they changed their game plan? I don't know.

There was nothing about their variation of the Big Nickel that was good throughout the entire season. Richards is absolute trash against the pass and he's just as horrific in run support. How many times have we seen him late to the edge going East to West against the run, take a horrible angle and whiff, or get swallowed up by the guard or the tackle getting to the next level? And yet this bum had to play almost 1/4 of the snaps on defense because Belichick decided that the team didn't need an extra corner at its disposal.

Oh I agree. Richards, the Marsh experiment, Branch's retirement tour, injuries etc.. severely hurt the team. I think it hurt Butler and the secondary as well. When the QB gets extra time to throw it can make the secondary look like ****.

I'm sure he felt that it was a valid reason. But I can't see too many reasons that would warrant benching him for the entire game on defense without not dressing him altogether, let alone letting him in on a ST snap. He was wrong and it cost us in a game in which just one more stop, with the offense setting yardage records and moving the ball almost at will, would have been the difference between an L and a W.

This is hindsight analysis. The game plan almost worked. They held them to one punt and two field goals (I'm not counting the last one). They got a turnover and almost survived a couple of iffy calls, a missed field goal, a missed extra point and a couple of concussions.

Would've Butler made the difference? You say he would have but I think it would have just allowed them to run more but admit we'll never know.

Really good stuff Kontra as always. I'm not saying you're wrong because you make very solid points but I'm not going to call it a "huge" mistake because I don't know how Butler was practicing or whatever but I will admit that I wish that he had played more than 0 defensie snaps if not only to know why he wasn't starting.
 
You keep asking this as if it hasn't thoroughly been disposed of yet. I'll turn it around. What could have been SO BAD that it warranted benching the guy for the entire game on defense but he was allowed to dress and even get in on a ST snap?
You keep saying this like no one has suggested possibilities you just haven't accepted any hypothetical or any of the rumors
Doesn't really matter what I answer because you've already predetermined that nothing warrants it. I'm not going to start throwing out random guesses to see if you think the punishment fits. Let's just say that I think the story I was told was enough to warrant it.

He left him on the 45 to push the controversy as far back as possible so his team didn't have to deal with. I would also say that what ever the problem was the STs coaches trusted him more than the defense and decided to use him.

Bottom line is you refuse to accept that Butler is ultimately the one that started this chain reaction. With hindsight BB probably should have handled it differently but without knowing for sure what happened it's difficult to know what other options there were and if you truly do agree with BBs reasons. But I know I want no one else making those choices and for that I have to live with the results.
 
You keep asking this as if it hasn't thoroughly been disposed of yet. I'll turn it around. What could have been SO BAD that it warranted benching the guy for the entire game on defense but he was allowed to dress and even get in on a ST snap?
Oh and it hasn't been fully disposed of. You still can't explain how if there is nothing that warrants what happened then how do you justify that it happened? You just need to admit that your not in a better place with enough information to answer this and you either accept BB had valid reasons or you dont but if you don't I have no idea how you continue to root for him and his team knowing that he could do this again just for kicks.
 
This is hindsight analysis. The game plan almost worked. They held them to one punt and two field goals (I'm not counting the last one). They got a turnover and almost survived a couple of iffy calls, a missed field goal, a missed extra point and a couple of concussions.


in what world does giving up 41 points on defense = "Almost worked" If not for having the #1 offense in the league this game would have been an absolute blowout. It was a huge slap in the face to every single member of the roster that a coach would Intentionally put out a weaker team.
 
in what world does giving up 41 points on defense = "Almost worked" If not for having the #1 offense in the league this game would have been an absolute blowout. It was a huge slap in the face to every single member of the roster that a coach would Intentionally put out a weaker team.

Yeah, weird how that performance was correlated to Butler not playing. It's almost like the two are somehow related!
 
When did I say anything like that? And they made adjustments.

If you decide before the game that butler isn’t prepared to play the adjustment of putting butler into the game isn’t available to you.
He doesn’t become prepared during the game.
I never said the defensive coaching wasn’t terrible.

C'Mon man! Haha on the thread name change. That is all.
 
Maybe one day bill will give us a good answer as to why butler was benched. Some media members like Shaughnessy want a good answer from bill.
 
Butler himself said he knew he would have a lesser role. I suspect McCourty knew as well and it wasn't just damage control.

“The week in New England, I knew I’d have a lesser role,” Butler said. “As the week kept going on there with the practices in Minnesota, it was even less.”

https://www.clarionledger.com/story/sports/2018/03/15/mississippi-native-malcolm-butler-made-rich-titans-nfl-free-agency/427295002/

Rowe was practicing as the #2 corner.

Of course he was. Butler had the flu and couldn't practice. Same as a player rehabbing an injury, you need someone else to fill in during practices. The problem comes when the player that filled in for Butler himself said he had no clue he was going to be starting at that position until right before the game. His comments in the immediate wake of the game were quite clear on that. So, like I said, pick your poison. Belichick either screwed up by not informing the entire unit, Rowe included, about the personnel change until right before kickoff or he screwed up by not putting his most talented and best overall unit on the field. Which is it?

I've already said I don't think Butler violated any curfew or that his benching was a punishment. I think it was based on his practice performance and gameplan. BB's past decision making history allows me to trust or not trust the man himself. It's a pretty simple concept. I know what his "shocking" decisions in the past have netted and will continue to trust his decision making process. It doesn't mean he's never wrong it just means that I trust that his decisions are more right than anyone else's has ever been.

And that's a problem. Each decision needs to be weighed on its own merits. His past decisions and success are wholly irrelevant to the topic at hand just like this would be wholly irrelevant to a similar decision in the future that is actually a good one and helps solidify the unit. This was not a good decision. The proof is in the pudding. It put a scrub like Richards on the field for nearly a quarter of the defensive snaps, it put Chung on a shifty wideout like Agholor in crunch time... a task that he obviously was not fit to handle, it put McCourty in the box instead of taking advantage of his range to disrupt passes, and it put Rowe on Jeffry early in the game when that task should have been given to Gilmore. Rowe obviously couldn't handle it. His first two series were disastrous. Just one stop on one of those third downs and a corner better suited to be in position on the touchdown pass instead of letting Jeffry cross his face would have been the difference.

You have to apply that "logic" to every aspect of your life at some level. You don't have any sources you'd trust? Mike Reiss over Trollin Volin?

I don't trust any source of information without digging into it on my own. Doesn't matter who it comes from.

BB made a decision. We don't know why.

We have a pretty good idea. Very few of the hypotheticals make sense when you consider he:
  • Dressed.
  • Got in on a special teams snap.
In principle I agree. But it sounds like what the Viking's #1 or #2 (depending on your trusted source ) top defensive unit tried to do and they got torched. Nick Foles had the post season of his life. Their offensive line played extremely well. I think that's what led to the game plan we saw.

That doesn't mean that there isn't a better way for Belichick to adjust. But doing so, and going into a regular nickel or dime in obvious passing situations, would have meant that he had an extra corner available at his disposal. Belichick didn't have that because of his decision.

We also don't know what Butler looked like in practice. BB does and made a decision. I think he thought they the right personnel on the field to slow them down enough for Tom Brady. Would they have had they changed their game plan? I don't know.

As I said before, I could more easily buy this if there wasn't a history of veteran players being signed/traded for mid-week only to go on and log substantial snaps that Sunday. The difference is that Butler knew the system and knew the game plan having had experience in said system and game plan.

Oh I agree. Richards, the Marsh experiment, Branch's retirement tour, injuries etc.. severely hurt the team. I think it hurt Butler and the secondary as well. When the QB gets extra time to throw it can make the secondary look like ****.

Well that's actually another interesting point. The Patriots pass rush was trash last year. No other way around that. But better coverage in obvious passing situations may have also created coverage sacks. Foles rarely had to come off of his first or second read, though, because the coverage was such a liability.

This is hindsight analysis. The game plan almost worked.

Not hindsight analysis at all. The game plan almost worked because the offense, and Brady, were almost good enough to save his bacon.

They held them to one punt and two field goals (I'm not counting the last one).

One punt and two field goals are not a win for the defense when it gives up 41 points and just needs one more stop to turn the game into a win.

They got a turnover and almost survived a couple of iffy calls, a missed field goal, a missed extra point and a couple of concussions.

That turnover was unforced and was a product of complete luck.

Would've Butler made the difference? You say he would have but I think it would have just allowed them to run more but admit we'll never know.

This assumes that the line-up they had in was getting the job done against the run. That's not the case. Richards is inadequate in run support and the Eagles gouged them for 164 yards rushing anyway. Butler is also a very solid wrap up tackler and the Patriots have played the run in the nickel for years now because of Chung's versatility. The difference here is that they would have still gotten killed against the run, but would have help up better against the pass. With the personnel they trotted out, the Eagles took what they wanted in both facets of the game.
 
in what world does giving up 41 points on defense = "Almost worked" If not for having the #1 offense in the league this game would have been an absolute blowout. It was a huge slap in the face to every single member of the roster that a coach would Intentionally put out a weaker team.

You can certainly argue the defensive gameplan sucked and the selection of players playing was bad judgement but to say he intentionally put players out there purposed to diss the rest of the roster and reduce the chances of victory is ridiculous.
 
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