Malcolm Butler Mega Thread

[SalemPats]

I haven't read all 141 pages of this thread, plus the 45 pages of Deb's thread but...

Did anyone discuss the possibility that Butler may not have been 100% recovered from his flu, and BB didn't feel he was strong enough to be effective at corner?

I didn't see what Butler did on his lone snap on ST, but maybe BB saw enough to cement his decision to not play a weakened, still partly sick Butler?

Even if he was 20%, he couldn't have been worse than what was out there.

 

[Jetssuck]

Matt Cassell had a 64% completion percentage 3700 yards 21 touchdowns and a passer rating of 90 in 2008, he was throwing to Moss and Welker. Belichick had a solid QB and delivered a solid season.

Not to mention the offensive decline of the 2007 to the 2008 Patriots was greater than the 2010 to 2011 offensive decline of the Colts without Manning.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

My gut instinct from everything that has been reported is, first of all Reiss’ story which includes captains as sources says he wasn’t getting it in practice and was struggling with what they were asking him to do against the eagles and they knew as of a few days earlier his role would be diminished.
The game plan clearly was big nickel and the 3rd corner role was minor.
I assume the reports of weed, fighting with coaches and attitude had to do with how he handled the demotion and by game time it became apparent he wasn’t mentally or emotionally ready to play. The scenes of him crying seem to fit that theory.
If he spent Friday thru Sunday bring an attitude problem, fighting with coaches and not handling his role well I can understand not wanting to go into the Sb with a guy in that mindset on the field.

This seems to make all of the information jive. Why didn’t B.B. just throw him in there when that defense was struggling? Probably because he had no confidence he could overcome his practice struggles and his mindset.

This is of course speculation but that’s all we have at this point and it makes more sense than belichick forgot after 40 years in the nfl that you are supposed to play your best players and decided to say f it let’s bench someone and see what happens.

Interesting. I have no qualms about Bill benching Butler for poor practice, fighting, etc. But is it too difficult to throw Butler in the game and ask him to shadow Agholar for a snap or two in man coverage? Maybe it is, I don't know. I certainly never thought Bill suddenly became stupid after 40 years of coaching overnight. However, I just feel like sometimes he's a bit inflexible with his "if you don't practice well you don't play" rule. He could have made him inactive if his intention was to never put him in. I mean once Chung went out, Butler wasn't even considered as a replacement. It seemed like a wasted spot in the lineup.

 

[upstater1]

Belichick's track record of benching Welker for feetgate is really playing on our minds.

He is absolutist with his rule-breaking punishments.

Maybe that was a one off, but it certainly works on my mind as I judge this Butler fiasco.

I think the Welker thing was ridiculous then, and I certainly hope this wasn't a parallel.

 

[Mountain_Commando]

Even if he was 20%, he couldn't have been worse than what was out there.

Cmon, I'm not buying that. That's just wishful thinking.

If Butler had gotten smoked and then it comes out that he was actually sick, people would've been calling for Bill's head on a steak for not playing Rowe instead.

Damned if you do...

 

[Kdo5]

If Butler had gotten smoked and then it comes out that he was actually sick, people would've been calling for Bill's head on a steak for not playing Rowe instead.

OK, that's definitely not true.

 

[patsfan13]

According to Jeff Howe, Rowe allowed 4/9 for 80 yards, with 3 PBUs. For context, Butler had 12 PBUs for the whole year. PFF gave Rowe the 4th highest grade on the team in SB 52 (third highest on D after Flowers and Gilmore). Rowe gave up some plays for sure but it wasn't anything markedly different than what we've seen from Butler all year.

Try to think about TEAM D, Rowe was fine in the 2nd half. After Gilmore was switched onto Jeffries. the issue was who didn't cover Nelson A? Chung was the wrong guy to put on a slot receiver.

Rowe on Smith

Gilmore on Jeffries

Chung on Ertz

Butler on Nelson

McCourty playing FS

Harmon in the dime pkg

NOT Richards trying to cover a RB, NOT McCourty covering Ertz, Not Chung on Nelson A, Not Rowe on Jeffries for an entire half,

This is football 101 not rocket science.

Defensive football is a team effort, not playing Butler left the entire backfield out of position (other than Gilmore). It wasn't difficult to see pretty damn plain.

Benching Butler didn't allow the other DB's to be put in a position to be successful, the results demonstrated that pretty well.

This time Brady wasn't able to overcome a disastrous coaching decision by BB, End of story.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

Try to think about TEAM D, Rowe was fine in the 2nd half. After Gilmore was switched onto Jeffries. the issue was who didn't cover Nelson A? Chung was the wrong guy to put on a slot receiver.

Rowe on Smith

Gilmore on Jeffries

Chung on Ertz

Butler on Nelson

McCourty playing FS

Harmon in the dime pkg

NOT Richards trying to cover a RB, NOT McCourty covering Ertz, Not Chung on Nelson A, Not Rowe on Jeffries for an entire half,

This is football 101 not rocket science.

Defensive football is a team effort, not playing Butler left the entire backfield out of position (other than Gilmore). It wasn't difficult to see pretty damn plain.

Benching Butler didn't allow the other DB's to be put in a position to be successful, the results demonstrated that pretty well.

This time Brady wasn't able to overcome a disastrous coaching decision by BB, End of story.

Nelson agholor killed us. He was huge in the second half. I have no doubt that butler would have done a better job than these other guys.

 

[Kargetina]

Cmon, I'm not buying that. That's just wishful thinking.

If Butler had gotten smoked and then it comes out that he was actually sick, people would've been calling for Bill's head on a steak for not playing Rowe instead.

Damned if you do...

This line of thinking doesn’t hold under scrutiny.

The issue is not why Butler didn’t start, the issue is why when Belichick’s defense was playing at an all time worst level, getting crushed on the field, unable to do anything whatsoever, he didn’t play Butler for a single snap.

This isn’t about benching an unhealthy B+ corner while playing a healthy B- corner.

It’s about a player that was off the injury report not playing a single rep while a D level corner like Bademosi and an F level safety like Richards did.

It’s inarguable that not playing Butler was a historically bad decision. The entire defense suffered tremendously for it. The 41 points allowed were the second most ever for a Belichick coached Pats team. The defense averaged 17 points allowed per game in the two playoff games prior when Butler played 100% of snaps. It also didn’t allow a single 30 or more points game since week 4. Only allowed over 20 3 times in 14 games.

What’s arguable is whether the cause that made Belichick do it is justifiable. Considering Butler was active and did play a snap on ST, it means whatever transgression he did wasn’t that bad.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

This line of thinking doesn’t hold under scrutiny.

The issue is not why Butler didn’t start, the issue is why when Belichick’s defense was playing at an all time worst level, getting crushed on the field, unable to do anything whatsoever, he didn’t play Butler for a single snap.

This isn’t about benching an unhealthy B+ corner while playing a healthy B- corner.

It’s about a player that was off the injury report not playing a single rep while a D level corner like Bademosi and an F level safety like Richards did.

It’s inarguable that not playing Butler was a historically bad decision. The entire defense suffered tremendously for it. The 41 points allowed were the second most ever for a Belichick coached Pats team. The defense averaged 17 points allowed per game in the two playoff games prior when Butler played 100% of snaps. It also didn’t allow a single 30 or more points game since week 4. Only allowed over 20 3 times in 14 games.

What’s arguable is whether the cause that made Belichick do it is justifiable. Considering Butler was active and did play a snap on ST, it means whatever transgression he did wasn’t that bad.

Well not starting butler change the scheme. All these guys on defense where caught off-guard.

 

[Kargetina]

Well not starting butler change the scheme. All these guys on defense where caught off-guard.

No, no i agree with you.

What i was simply pointing out was that there would be no backlash had Belichick thought that Rowe could provide a better game, realized early on that wasn’t the case and put Butler in, thus rearranging the entire defense back to it’s original and strongest formation.

The problem is not that Belichick made a bad game plan. It’s that he stubbornly stuck to it for 4 hours even though the defense never improved.

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

Interesting. I have no qualms about Bill benching Butler for poor practice, fighting, etc. But is it too difficult to throw Butler in the game and ask him to shadow Agholar for a snap or two in man coverage? Maybe it is, I don't know. I certainly never thought Bill suddenly became stupid after 40 years of coaching overnight. However, I just feel like sometimes he's a bit inflexible with his "if you don't practice well you don't play" rule. He could have made him inactive if his intention was to never put him in. I mean once Chung went out, Butler wasn't even considered as a replacement. It seemed like a wasted spot in the lineup.

It doesn't make much difference whether he schemed him out of the game or pulled him because it's still an inexplicable decision to remove the CB who played 98% of the snaps all year.

However Reiss' column provided zero quotes that show he was schemed out and we have several reasons to think that was not the case like:

Rowe was asked directly-

Q: Did you know you’d be starting?

Rowe: “No.”

Q: Did the team expect Malcolm Butler to not play?

Rowe: “No, that wasn’t the plan.”

Not only is Rowe saying he didn't know he's saying the team didn't know. This is the guy who would have to know. I'm not buying all the team captains and players knew or something but the forgot to tell the guy who would play in his spot until just before the game. It's too absurd and frankly would make BB look completely dysfunctional if it were true.

And it seems odd that not only would his replacement say he didn't know but Butler broke down just before the game... over a game plan decision from a week ago?

I haven't seen any quotes contradicting Rowe and nothing credible that contradicts either what he said or how it looked.

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

Cmon, I'm not buying that. That's just wishful thinking.

If Butler had gotten smoked and then it comes out that he was actually sick, people would've been calling for Bill's head on a steak for not playing Rowe instead.

Damned if you do...

It's not like they would have given up 2TDs per drive. When people say they couldn't have done much worse it's not an exaggeration. Only 2 drives didn't end in points, none in the second half.

 

[upstater1]

Listening to Mayo on the podcast just killed me.

He said that forget about Rowe vs. Butler. Belichick could explain that to anyone. He said not playing Butler forced Chung into the slot, where he had some trouble. But even worse, it put Richards on Ertz.

If Butler plays, Chung takes Ertz and one of the top 3 CBs takes the slot.

I'm sorry but Mayo's comments just killed me.

How am I wrong? How is Mayo wrong?

 

[Ring 6]

Interesting. I have no qualms about Bill benching Butler for poor practice, fighting, etc. But is it too difficult to throw Butler in the game and ask him to shadow Agholar for a snap or two in man coverage? Maybe it is, I don't know. I certainly never thought Bill suddenly became stupid after 40 years of coaching overnight. However, I just feel like sometimes he's a bit inflexible with his "if you don't practice well you don't play" rule. He could have made him inactive if his intention was to never put him in. I mean once Chung went out, Butler wasn't even considered as a replacement. It seemed like a wasted spot in the lineup.

When has belichick ever been inflexible with players? I know of no rule that if you don’t practice well you don’t play. I think you just made that up. I think you are making the mistake of thinking the B.B. that speaks to reporters is the B.B. that speaks to players and that is just wrong.
Why would you make him inactive? That leaves you 3 corners.
How do you know butler “wasn’t considsred”? It seems like he was the 4th option for these reasons so why would you skip 3 and go to 4?

I think how butler handled demotion turned being #3 into being #4 because the coaching staff lost confidence in him doing what they needed him to.
Choosing to move Rowe to #2 and butler to #3 wouldn’t be a crazy shocking move in fact I think it happened vs kc. But in most games that gives butler 50-60 snaps. In this game playing big nickel it probably would have had him at 15-20.

 

[Ring 6]

It's not like they would have given up 2TDs per drive. When people say they couldn't have done much worse it's not an exaggeration. Only 2 drives didn't end in points, none in the second half.

You don’t make decisions in gane knowing he final results.
Any coach who says they are scoring a lot let’s scrap everything we decided to do this week because hey nothing could be much worse won’t be a coach for long.

 

[Ring 6]

Listening to Mayo on the podcast just killed me.

He said that forget about Rowe vs. Butler. Belichick could explain that to anyone. He said not playing Butler forced Chung into the slot, where he had some trouble. But even worse, it put Richards on Ertz.

If Butler plays, Chung takes Ertz and one of the top 3 CBs takes the slot.

I'm sorry but Mayo's comments just killed me.

How am I wrong? How is Mayo wrong?

The scheme was big nickel so butler is on the bench most of the gane as cb3. (Bademosi played maybe 8 snaps there the rest were subbing for chung)
Richards only played 16 snaps all game.

We have done this before it’s not out of the blue.
I don’t think Richards was ever mtm in Ertz

 

[Ring 6]

Try to think about TEAM D, Rowe was fine in the 2nd half. After Gilmore was switched onto Jeffries. the issue was who didn't cover Nelson A? Chung was the wrong guy to put on a slot receiver.

Rowe on Smith

Gilmore on Jeffries

Chung on Ertz

Butler on Nelson

McCourty playing FS

Harmon in the dime pkg

NOT Richards trying to cover a RB, NOT McCourty covering Ertz, Not Chung on Nelson A, Not Rowe on Jeffries for an entire half,

This is football 101 not rocket science.

Defensive football is a team effort, not playing Butler left the entire backfield out of position (other than Gilmore). It wasn't difficult to see pretty damn plain.

Benching Butler didn't allow the other DB's to be put in a position to be successful, the results demonstrated that pretty well.

This time Brady wasn't able to overcome a disastrous coaching decision by BB, End of story.

Rowe didn’t civet Jeffrey for a half.
We chose to play big nickel. Butler as cb3 would have played maybe 15-20 snaps maybe less.

 

[upstater1]

The scheme was big nickel so butler iscin the bench most of the gane as cb3. (Bademosi played maybe 8 snaps there the rest were subbing for chung)
Richards only played 16 snaps all game.

We have done this before it’s not out of the blue.
I don’t think Richards was ever mtm in Ertz

Everyone and their mother knows that if we did it again, we say screw the way Bill did it (it certainly didn't work) and we start Butler over Rowe. We'd certainly have a better chance as one of the top 2 CBs and with Chung on Ertz.

This is on Belichick. I don't care if Butler bathed in Chandler Jones' synthetic voodoo, he's still better than the combined 20 plays from Richards and Bademosi.

This was the worst defensive performance I have ever seen from the Patriots in the last 25 years.

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

You don’t make decisions in gane knowing he final results.

Yes you do. The coaches can't see the future. All their decisions are made prior to knowing the final results.

Any coach who says they are scoring a lot let’s scrap everything we decided to do this week because hey nothing could be much worse won’t be a coach for long.

BB pulled Arrington in SB49. And BB has been a coach for a long time so both your sentences are probably false.