Mac Jones' Last Five Games - 2022 vs 2021

[Rob0729]

The OL excuse isn't backed up by the data. Take a look at all the teams to the left of the Pats and how their QBs compare. Jesus, look at CIN and MIA. How are Burrow and Tua doing? What about Herbert with a worse OL and probably a worse OC. Unfortunately, around here actual data is "agenda driven" that makes you a hater. It is what it is.

PFF has the Patriots having among the worst OTs in the league for pass protection, but hey you found a chart that fits your false narrative.

According to the stats you are using, only Miami, Tennessee, Cincy, and Indy's offense tackles have played worse on true pass sets than Trent Brown and whoever was opposite him at RT this year.

And if you don't like the term "hater", I am more than happy to use the term "ignorant".

 

[bigballas]

Jones is a second year QB with an awful o-line and OC. Cousins has been in the league for a decade.

And Jones didn't suck last year. He was in second place in the OROY voting. He would have won it if Chase didn't have a historic rookie year. If you think Jones sucked last year, you are not being objective at all.

And you are going to be disappointed because most likely Jones will be the starting QB next year.

fine....Jones didn't suck last year. I can agree with that. And even thought I've bagged on Josh McD for almost a decade now, he's clearly a superb OC and Jones had the benefit of that last year. Maybe that was his ceiling...

Also, yeah will probably be disappointed Jones is the QB and I'll still watch every game and rant on this board, etc. etc...

But he does suck this year.

 

[bigballas]

PFF has the Patriots having among the worst OTs in the league for pass protection, but hey you found a chart that fits your false narrative.

According to the stats you are using, only Miami, Tennessee, Cincy, and Indy's offense tackles have played worse on true pass sets than Trent Brown and whoever was opposite him at RT this year.

And if you don't like the term "hater", I am more than happy to use the term "ignorant".

so we have a top 10ish rated pass protection OL? 10-14 = 61

 

[Rob0729]

fine....Jones didn't suck last year. I can agree with that. And even thought I've bagged on Josh McD for almost a decade now, he's clearly a superb OC and Jones had the benefit of that last year. Maybe that was his ceiling...

Also, yeah will probably be disappointed Jones is the QB and I'll still watch every game and rant on this board, etc. etc...

But he does suck this year.

We don't know what Jones' ceiling is. That is a fact. It may not be any higher than it was last year, but we cannot tell because he was put in a position to fail.

If you don't like Mac Jones, you should be pissed at Belichick and Patricia. This year is a free pass for the guy because the offense around him has been awful from the coaching to the o-line play to the receivers. If you are right that he does actually suck, we wasted a year because of Belichick putting Patricia in at OC and we didn't get a real look at Jones and what he really is.

 

[venecol]

PFF has the Patriots having among the worst OTs in the league for pass protection, but hey you found a chart that fits your false narrative.

According to the stats you are using, only Miami, Tennessee, Cincy, and Indy's offense tackles have played worse on true pass sets than Trent Brown and whoever was opposite him at RT this year.

And if you don't like the term "hater", I am more than happy to use the term "ignorant".

You really don't know how to read. He's not averaging the PFF grades, he assigning 50% on T, 17% on C and 33% on G. That was your argument, that more weight should be on the T. That's what he did.

Regardless, he's not just using PFF grades, he's also using ESPN grades and SIS.

 

[Rob0729]

so we have a top 10ish rated pass protection OL? 10-14 = 61

Not even close. Stats for o-linemen are rubbish. There are no measurable stats for o-linemen that aren't subjective. How is it determined whether a sack is because of poor o-line play, the QB holding onto the ball too long, or is the coverage so good that no one was open?

Stats in football are tough to judge quality of play in a lot of cases when the stats are hard facts with no subjectivity whatsoever. When you factor into subjective stats, you can throw all the analysis from the stats out the window.

 

[JR52]

We don't know what Jones' ceiling is. That is a fact. It may not be any higher than it was last year, but we cannot tell because he was put in a position to fail.

If you don't like Mac Jones, you should be pissed at Belichick and Patricia. This year is a free pass for the guy because the offense around him has been awful from the coaching to the o-line play to the receivers. If you are right that he does actually suck, we wasted a year because of Belichick putting Patricia in at OC and we didn't get a real look at Jones and what he really is.

We will never know if Rohan Davey had a higher ceiling because he was put in a position to fail behind Brady, too. Guess we'll just never know.

This is going to be a long 8 months.

 

[JR52]

Not even close. Stats for o-linemen are rubbish. There are no measurable stats for o-linemen that aren't subjective. How is it determined whether a sack is because of poor o-line play, the QB holding onto the ball too long, or is the coverage so good that no one was open?

Stats in football are tough to judge quality of play in a lot of cases when the stats are hard facts with no subjectivity whatsoever. When you factor into subjective stats, you can throw all the analysis from the stats out the window.

Got it, so when someone presents stats it's subjective rubbish but we are supposed to trust your objective eyes every time you blame the OL for Mac's struggles. You are just making things up at this point.

 

[Rob0729]

You really don't know how to read. He's not averaging the PFF grades, he assigning 50% on T, 17% on C and 33% on G. That was your argument, that more weight should be on the T. That's what he did.

Regardless, he's not just using PFF grades, he's also using ESPN grades and SIS

I will admit I was wrong about the weighted average if you will concede that the data that this guy is using shows the Patriots offensive tackles are among the worst in the NFL on true passing downs.

And whether he uses another source, he is using PFF for one of the two axis's for the chart you posted. That is significant.

And also, although blown blocks and plays is a subjective stat, the SIS number for the Patriots is at best average for the league. There are 17 teams at the same level or higher than the Pats on the SIS axis.

 

[Rob0729]

Got it, so when someone presents stats it's subjective rubbish but we are supposed to trust your objective eyes every time you blame the OL for Mac's struggles. You are just making things up at this point.

LOL! I have already pointed out how the stats from that chart has the Patriots offensive tackles as among the worst in the league. If you want to say that the stats aren't subjective rubbish, we can agree that Jones is victim of awful play from the two most important positions on the offensive line.

There is a reason why people don't quote offensive line stats unless it fits their argument because they are subjective. The only way to determine a blown block is to look at the play and make a judgement call. Many times it isn't much of a judgement call at all and it is obvious. Other times, it is up to the person collecting the stats to make a judgement call. It isn't black and white in a lot of cases. That is subjective.

 

[Rob0729]

We will never know if Rohan Davey had a higher ceiling because he was put in a position to fail behind Brady, too. Guess we'll just never know.

This is going to be a long 8 months.

Rohan Davey never completed 67.6% of his passes (second all time for a rookie) for 3,801 yards, 22 TDs, and 13 INTs in his rookie season (or any season). Davey was drafted to be a back up.

Seriously, this is a horrible false equivalence.

 

[RodThePat]

As long as we're doing comparisons.

Player A: 66.5% completions, 3.6 TD%, 2.3 INT%, 7.1 Y/A, 89.5 passer rating, 5.90 ANY/A.

Player B: 66.4% completions, 3.6 TD%, 2.3 INT%, 7.3 Y/A, 90.5 passer rating, 6.00 ANY/A.

Now, player A is Mac Jones, any guesses as to the identity of Player B?

I'll give you a hint: he's also an accurate QB with a meh arm that went through a lot of coaching changes and suffered with bad protection at various times in his career.

 

[venecol]

As long as we're doing comparisons.

Player A: 66.5% completions, 3.6 TD%, 2.3 INT%, 7.1 Y/A, 89.5 passer rating, 5.90 ANY/A.

Player B: 66.4% completions, 3.6 TD%, 2.3 INT%, 7.3 Y/A, 90.5 passer rating, 6.00 ANY/A.

Now, player A is Mac Jones, any guesses as to the identity of Player B?

I'll give you a hint: he's also an accurate QB with a meh arm that went through a lot of coaching changes and suffered with bad protection at various times in his career.

I can't find any QB that meets Player B stats. Mac's are also quite different than Player A.

Player A: 66.5% completions, 3.6 TD%, 2.3 INT%, 7.1 Y/A, 89.5 passer rating, 5.90 ANY/A.

Mac: 65.2% completions, 2.7 TD%, 2.0 INT%, 6.9 Y/A, 85.8 passer rating, 5.50 ANY/A.


I'll take a wild guess, Mayfield?

 

[RodThePat]

I can't find any QB that meets Player B stats. Mac's are also quite different than Player A.

Player A: 66.5% completions, 3.6 TD%, 2.3 INT%, 7.1 Y/A, 89.5 passer rating, 5.90 ANY/A.

Mac: 65.2% completions, 2.7 TD%, 2.0 INT%, 6.9 Y/A, 85.8 passer rating, 5.50 ANY/A.


I'll take a wild guess, Mayfield?

Those are his career stats, not this season's. But no, not Baker Mayfield.

The answer is actually Teddy Bridgewater. I don't think I've ever seen a QB pairing with stats that so close mirror each other. Similar profile of player too.

 

[venecol]

Those are his career stats, not this season's. But no, not Baker Mayfield.

The answer is actually Teddy Bridgewater. I don't think I've ever seen a QB pairing with stats that so close mirror each other. Similar profile of player too.

Lol, Bridgewater?

 

[venecol]

Those are his career stats, not this season's. But no, not Baker Mayfield.

The answer is actually Teddy Bridgewater. I don't think I've ever seen a QB pairing with stats that so close mirror each other. Similar profile of player too.

Yea, found him. Wow, that's weird AF.

 

[Ian]

Those are his career stats, not this season's. But no, not Baker Mayfield.

The answer is actually Teddy Bridgewater. I don't think I've ever seen a QB pairing with stats that so close mirror each other. Similar profile of player too.

Bridgewater was just a victim of some bad injuries that plagued what might have been a better career. I feel like he was coming off a pretty good year when he suffered that first knee injury, so he just lost all his momentum. Seems like everytime he starts having any success, something happened and he got hurt.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

The OL excuse isn't backed up by the data. Take a look at all the teams to the left of the Pats and how their QBs compare. Jesus, look at CIN and MIA. How are Burrow and Tua doing? What about Herbert with a worse OL and probably a worse OC. Unfortunately, around here actual data is "agenda driven" that makes you a hater. It is what it is.

I've pointed this out about other QB's many times but Rob isn't listening to anything objective.

Herbert has had a worse OC for 2 years now but will have 60 + TD / < 30 INT i believe. Worse OL. Shuffling bodies at RT. C & LT out a good chunk of the year. Top 3 WR hurt.

Burrow and Tua have their flaws but each are just better working with subpar lines.

I mean Geno Smith is laping Mac with a worse OL. Almost 3/1 TD/INT and top 10 any/a. Tua & Burrow are top ten any/a too.

Brissett and Tannehill are other good examples in similar conditions, having slightly better years.

I'm all for giving Mac another year with an upgrade across the board. Pretending he's played well or hasn't been a problem isn't helping anyone. He hasn't been the problem but he's had a rough year separate from Patricia's suckiness.

 

[Rob0729]

I've pointed this out about other QB's many times but Rob isn't listening to anything objective.

Herbert has had a worse OC for 2 years now but will have 60 + TD / < 30 INT i believe. Worse OL. Shuffling bodies at RT. C & LT out a good chunk of the year. Top 3 WR hurt.

Burrow and Tua have their flaws but each are just better working with subpar lines.

I mean Geno Smith is laping Mac with a worse OL. Almost 3/1 TD/INT and top 10 any/a. Tua & Burrow are top ten any/a too.

Brissett and Tannehill are other good examples in similar conditions, having slightly better years.

I'm all for giving Mac another year with an upgrade across the board. Pretending he's played well or hasn't been a problem isn't helping anyone. He hasn't been the problem but he's had a rough year separate from Patricia's suckiness.

LOL! You think you are objective. That's adorable.

Herbert is one of the best QBs in the league. So is Burrow. Both have elite or superior receiving talent to throw to. And Herbert doesn't have a worse OC.

And by the way, the Pats are on their fourth starting RT and he was on the Jets' practice squad a month ago. Andrews missed a close to a month.

And let's not forget that DeVante Parker has missed a month, Meyers missed three games, Damien Harris missed three or four games. Everyone is dealing with injuries.

So does Tua. And Tua has the benefit of having two receivers who he can throw short passes to and allowing the receivers do all the work after the catch.

Geno Smith is a mobile QB who can make plays outside the pocket.

But Patricia is arguably the worst OC in the league. Many people and not just Mac defenders think he is the worst. Hell, even many people in the media who don't think Jones is not the answer at QB admit that. We literally have receivers who run routes designed to help the defense to cover them.

But again, guys you love like Evan Lazar and Dan Orlovsky, say the same thing I do about Patricia and the o-line.

But who says any of the lines you mentioned are actually worse than the Patriots' o-line. Why because the eyeball test isn't as reliable as "stats" that are compiled based on eyeball tests of other people?

This is why you guys aren't objective. You guys are trying to create a false narrative that Matt Patricia and the offensive line hasn't been all that bad this year and they are really pretty average. If you at least accepted that Patricia is one of the worst OCs in the game, you would have at least a little more credibility.

But most importantly, the guy who signs everyone's paychecks in Foxboro reportedly thinks the offensive coaching staff is awful and wants wholesale changes including the firing or reassignment of Patricia to a non-offense coaching position. If Kraft thought Patricia was just average or slightly below average, I am thinking he might be willing to give him a year two to show he has grown with another offseason.

And I have never said Patricia was all the problems for Jones' issues this year (that is you guys putting words in my mouth). Jones clearly didn't play well the first few months of the season. I think Jones has played fairly well, but inconsistently, since Thanksgiving. But he needs to improve his consistency. But I have said that basically everyone on offense except Trent Brown, Nelson Agholor, and Isiah Wynn gets a free pass this year in my eyes because of Patricia. A lot of the o-line issues have to do with Patricia as the o-line coach and him not giving Andrews as much freedom to make assignment audibles and the poor development of Strange.

And I have said that the #1 issue on this offense is Patricia and #2 isn't even close. I would put Jones at #4 or #5 after Patricia, the o-line, receivers not running good routes, and mental errors. And all the issues from #2 on are at least partially impacted by Patricia and his awful management of the offense.

 

[Ian]

I've pointed this out about other QB's many times but Rob isn't listening to anything objective.

Herbert has had a worse OC for 2 years now but will have 60 + TD / < 30 INT i believe. Worse OL. Shuffling bodies at RT. C & LT out a good chunk of the year. Top 3 WR hurt.

Burrow and Tua have their flaws but each are just better working with subpar lines.

I mean Geno Smith is laping Mac with a worse OL. Almost 3/1 TD/INT and top 10 any/a. Tua & Burrow are top ten any/a too.

Brissett and Tannehill are other good examples in similar conditions, having slightly better years.

I'm all for giving Mac another year with an upgrade across the board. Pretending he's played well or hasn't been a problem isn't helping anyone. He hasn't been the problem but he's had a rough year separate from Patricia's suckiness.

Herbert is far more talented. It's not really close and I think most people here would take Herbert in a heartbeat if that was a possibility. From there, I will say that Burrow and Tua benefit from having much better players, although Burrow's arc already has him as an elite QB. He's made too many clutch plays in key moments and the kid is just a great player and leader. And the fact he's got who he has around him should keep Cincinnati as a contender as long as they can keep that group together.

In Tua's case, you put a decent QB with several explosive players, and the results are what they were - really good offensive production. He's not outstanding, but obviously we saw the difference adding Hill made, and the chemistry he already had with Waddle, having played with him in college, has obviously paid dividends.

Mac, I would say, falls in behind Tua and he's probably in line with Tannehill, albeit Tannehill has a better arm. But Mac's advantage is he doesn't make the dumb, untimely interceptions. He's also a smarter player mentally. Again, I would say that will remain his biggest strength, and we just have to get used to the fact he's just going to be a good player who, paired with some other great players, can win a lot of games with the focus being on the defense.

Again, and I said this in another thread, people are frustrated with Mac because they're expecting great QB play given who we had here. They're going to have to settle for just good or really good and hopefully at least at last year's level or above - provided they add more talent around him. If he can get to a point where he's hovering around 30TDs a year with a low interception total, that, paired with this defense, might be good enough to be competitive in the interim until a better option becomes available.

It is what it is. The Patrick Mahomes, Joe Burrows, Justin Herberts, Josh Allens are all rare guys, and we go entire draft classes every year without seeing one come out. They'll have to keep drafting guys and pushing the envelope until they potentially get one who is a little more athletically gifted, has a stronger arm, or whatever it is they're ultimately looking for who would push Mac out. Or maybe after next year, if they opt not to pick up his fifth-year option, they elevate Zappe, try and recoup a high pick, and go after somebody else the year after.

Either way, they have to try and squeeze out the most we can with the guy who is back there and not spend all our time complaining about something that just "is what it is," at least for now. It just sucks that we've wasted an entire season and we've ended up with the same number of questions it feels like we started the year with. Hopefully, he'll show us something this weekend and either extend the season, or give us something positive to talk about heading into the offseason.