Mac Jones is the Starter [Update - Mac is starting vs the Jete, says BB]

[PatsFan2]

Wilson made up for his lack of size with his athletic skills. Look what he looks like this year as a pocket passer or even last year. The last few years he has been moving away from relying on his athletic skills and becoming a pocket passer and he is become a mediocre QB.

As for Brees, he is far more talented than Zappe. And the Saints always gave him a dominant offensive line that would push back the pile and give him big throwing lanes. Go look back at some his highlights and see the completely wide open passing lanes they gave him. And Zappe is no Drew Brees. And the Patriots' o-line isn't the Saints' o-lines during the Brees era.

Don't forget exceptional talent at RB and WR.

 

[jdlboot14]

I can't believe BB wouldn't recognize the difficulty in Mac's 2nd year changes - and recognize Matty P's play calls as part of the evaluation.
But it sure seems like BB is suddenly treating Mac as a high-expectation veteran, while sorta babying Zappe like the rookie he is.
Problem is, why? Wouldn't you just run the plays/scheme that can produce the most consistent success rate to win games?
Also, wouldn't you be trying real hard to make YOUR 1st round QB pick succeed so you don't look like a fool?
It seems like BB is almost trying to threaten Mac to fail. I don't get it.

 

[Sicilian]

I think the theories that the coaching staff is trying to sabotage Mac Jones are silly. But that doesn’t mean they are not mishandling him with their aggressive play calling for him.

And I have to rethink my take on how teams will develop a book on Zappe and learn how to scheme for him and he can be exposed after that. Now that I know Breer has the same take, I am thinking there is a flaw in my logic.

Yeah, anyone who thinks they've done something intentional to make Mac look bad is going way out on a limb. I think it's actually pretty simple: Last year, it got way too easy for teams to gameplan against the Pats offense. Load the box, take away the short-intermediate stuff, make Mac consistently beat you deep. Going into this year, they wanted to show other teams that they couldn't do that anymore, so they drafted a speedster at WR, sign another WR who's known for deep contested catches, and tried to shift the offensive philosophy to look deep more often. I think the idea was to force defenses into higher shell coverages, and then you can just eat underneath all day if you have to.

Whatever the combination of factors are, in reality that plan hasn't worked. Either Mac isn't good at running it, the coaching staff isn't good at scheming/teaching it, they don't have consistent enough weapons to take advantage, or the offensive line hasn't been good enough to let deep concepts develop. Probably a little bit of all of it.

Personally, I would have tried doing it the opposite way, by starting with what you know Mac can run and then expanding it, but I think they assumed teams would be selling out on the short stuff right away, so I get it. Not too late to go back and try to build from short to long again, but clock's ticking for sure.

 

[PatsFan2]

I think Mac is gonna be our QB for many years. He doesn't have a cannon for throwing deep on the run or throwing a rope when retreating, but other than that he can throw short-medium-deep with touch and accuracy. He's pretty mobile with good speed, though certainly not in the top tier. He's not Allen-Mahomes-Herbert-Burrow-Jackson, but he can be a good starting QB.

I would wait for some good games by Jones before I make that kind of statement.

 

[notex]

I am happy they are messaging that Mac is starting QB - that goes far in terms of confidence.

Not sold on him as long-term QB. I think he will be perfectly average and I'm not sure Pats can have a superbowl contending team with him as the franchise QB. We will be at a disadvantage to Chiefs/Bills/Chargers/Bengals/Ravens every year... so will have to make up for it in other areas.

Hope I am wrong, but I just don't see him as a top 5/10 QB perennially

 

[PatsFan2]

I am happy they are messaging that Mac is starting QB - that goes far in terms of confidence.

Not sold on him as long-term QB. I think he will be perfectly average and I'm not sure Pats can have a superbowl contending team with him as the franchise QB. We will be at a disadvantage to Chiefs/Bills/Chargers/Bengals/Ravens every year... so will have to make up for it in other areas.

Hope I am wrong, but I just don't see him as a top 5/10 QB perennially

I agree I was thinking of those team and saying to myself we are not even close @ the QB position.

 

[Rob0729]

Yeah, anyone who thinks they've done something intentional to make Mac look bad is going way out on a limb. I think it's actually pretty simple: Last year, it got way too easy for teams to gameplan against the Pats offense. Load the box, take away the short-intermediate stuff, make Mac consistently beat you deep. Going into this year, they wanted to show other teams that they couldn't do that anymore, so they drafted a speedster at WR, sign another WR who's known for deep contested catches, and tried to shift the offensive philosophy to look deep more often. I think the idea was to force defenses into higher shell coverages, and then you can just eat underneath all day if you have to.

Whatever the combination of factors are, in reality that plan hasn't worked. Either Mac isn't good at running it, the coaching staff isn't good at scheming/teaching it, they don't have consistent enough weapons to take advantage, or the offensive line hasn't been good enough to let deep concepts develop. Probably a little bit of all of it.

Personally, I would have tried doing it the opposite way, by starting with what you know Mac can run and then expanding it, but I think they assumed teams would be selling out on the short stuff right away, so I get it. Not too late to go back and try to build from short to long again, but clock's ticking for sure.

It is so un-Patriots like the way they handled this whole thing. Belichick treats September like the preseason which means more vanilla offenses and defenses and having players work into shape and working out the issues. Patricia had the Pats go into Miami doing zone outside runs and Mac throwing down the field. It was clear that Jones and Parker weren't even on the same page in that game. But they still had Jones throwing 50-50 balls to him which requires them to be on the same page.

But I do have an issue that the Pats aren't really trying to get 2nd and 3rd and short for Jones in a lot of cases and wants him to throw for first downs on every play it seems at times even if it is first and 20 or second and 10. There is no really short game in the calls for Jones which last was his bread and butter. Last year he was completing like 75-80% (this is a guestimate before anyone jumps) of his passes under like 7-8 yards. Now they prefer him passing for chunk plays most of the time.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

My question is this to the board: How do the Patriots fix Zappe's bat downs at the line?

easy fix

 

[catent]

I can't believe BB wouldn't recognize the difficulty in Mac's 2nd year changes - and recognize Matty P's play calls as part of the evaluation.
But it sure seems like BB is suddenly treating Mac as a high-expectation veteran, while sorta babying Zappe like the rookie he is.
Problem is, why? Wouldn't you just run the plays/scheme that can produce the most consistent success rate to win games?
Also, wouldn't you be trying real hard to make YOUR 1st round QB pick succeed so you don't look like a fool?
It seems like BB is almost trying to threaten Mac to fail. I don't get it.

If Jones was being treated as a high exception veteran, he would've been established as the undisputed starting QB (upon his return to health) the day after the Lions game.

BB is not averse to naming a starter if he in confident in who will be starting.

He named Brady the starter in 2001.
He named Cassel the starter in 2008.
He repeatedly doubled and tripled down on Cam as the starter in 2020 (despite atrocious play).

If he has genuine conviction about who the starter will be, he doesn't seem disinclined to state as much in a pretty forthright manner. I'd take his comments in this instance (or lack thereof) at face value.

 

[Triumph]

Wilson made up for his lack of size with his athletic skills. Look what he looks like this year as a pocket passer or even last year. The last few years he has been moving away from relying on his athletic skills and becoming a pocket passer and he is become a mediocre QB.

As for Brees, he is far more talented than Zappe. And the Saints always gave him a dominant offensive line that would push back the pile and give him big throwing lanes. Go look back at some his highlights and see the completely wide open passing lanes they gave him. And Zappe is no Drew Brees. And the Patriots' o-line isn't the Saints' o-lines during the Brees era.

Not really

Rookie Wilson 3118 pass yards - 26 tds - 10 ints.

Rookie Jones 3801 pass yards - 22 tds - 13 ints.

Wilson was a great passing QB for Seattle. He used his athletic ability when pass plays broke down.

 

[Rob0729]

Not really

Rookie Wilson 3118 pass yards - 26 tds - 10 ints.

Rookie Jones 3801 pass yards - 22 tds - 13 ints.

Wilson was a great passing QB for Seattle. He used his athletic ability when pass plays broke down.

I don't know what you point is, but Wilson also had 489 yards and 4 TDs rushing. You aren't seeing that from either Jones or Zappe.

 

[TinhWoodhead]

zappe will start after the bye, then mac the next week, then zappe again, you get the idea

 

[JarOfMayo51]

Are you high? ****, am I high? Idk what we’re even talking about at this point. The offense has definitely moved better with Zappe. He seems to be finding the open receivers quicker (or at all) but that second half of football Monday night was so bad, I now question if he has what it takes to overcome the height issue. Then again, Brady had some games where the ball got batted down quite a few times. What really bothers me is on those bay downs, I didn’t see one OL knocking someone on their ass and making them pay for it.

I think he had 5 batted passes, which is A LOT for 1 game...

 

[Triumph]

I don't know what you point is, but Wilson also had 489 yards and 4 TDs rushing. You aren't seeing that from either Jones or Zappe.

What does that have to do with his passing?

Wilson is not Lamar Jackson.

People here were dancing on the roof at Jones numbers last year when Wilson had better TD and INT numbers. Wilson started for 10 years in Seattle and had 1 losing season. Zap can return and win.

 

[venecol]

It is so un-Patriots like the way they handled this whole thing. Belichick treats September like the preseason which means more vanilla offenses and defenses and having players work into shape and working out the issues. Patricia had the Pats go into Miami doing zone outside runs and Mac throwing down the field. It was clear that Jones and Parker weren't even on the same page in that game. But they still had Jones throwing 50-50 balls to him which requires them to be on the same page.

But I do have an issue that the Pats aren't really trying to get 2nd and 3rd and short for Jones in a lot of cases and wants him to throw for first downs on every play it seems at times even if it is first and 20 or second and 10. There is no really short game in the calls for Jones which last was his bread and butter. Last year he was completing like 75-80% (this is a guestimate before anyone jumps) of his passes under like 7-8 yards. Now they prefer him passing for chunk plays most of the time.

I know this doesn't fit your narrative but Mac has thrown in the short zone (<15 yards) 74% of the time (76 att) and deep 26% of the time (27 att). He's been accurate short (75%) and not so much deep (37%).

All this info is right on the forum you use every day: 2022 New England Patriots Stats | Sortable 3rd Down, Red Zone Passing and Rushing Patriots Stats.

 

[catent]

I think he had 5 batted passes, which is A LOT for 1 game...

I just watched every throw from that game and I counted four. One of the four was batted nearly immediately after he released it - the LE had collapsed the edge and his hand was about about 10 inches from the ball when it was released.

Definitely something to work on.

 

[Rob0729]

What does that have to do with his passing?

Wilson is not Lamar Jackson.

People here were dancing on the roof at Jones numbers last year when Wilson had better TD and INT numbers. Wilson started for 10 years in Seattle and had 1 losing season. Zap can return and win.

Ummmm..... I was explaining how Wilson was able to get out of his disadvantage by him athletic ability in reference to Zappe. I wasn't comparing him to Jones. Wilson is probably borderline HOFer. I don't think Jones is remotely as good as Wilson was before he has apparently fallen apart.

 

[Rob0729]

I know this doesn't fit your narrative but Mac has thrown in the short zone (<15 yards) 74% of the time (76 att) and deep 26% of the time (27 att). He's been accurate short (75%) and not so much deep (37%).

All this info is right on the forum you use every day: 2022 New England Patriots Stats | Sortable 3rd Down, Red Zone Passing and Rushing Patriots Stats.

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What narrative? I clearly said IN A LOT OF CASES and I also said throw for first downs on every play it seems AT TIMES. I clearly clarified the position that it wasn't all the time and only at certain times do they do it. I didn't say all the time.

Your weird obsession with trying to prove me wrong is a real issue for you. But hey, thanks for wasting time to prove that a position I clearly didn't take is a false narrative. Feel free to prove any other thing I never said wrong too. Knock yourself out.

 

[catent]

I just read BB's presser from yesterday. He struck me as kind of annoyed and frustrated with the situation, to be honest. He never referred to Jones as the "starter" - he took deliberate care to avoid using that word specifically, and wouldn't commit beyond this week. But what got my attention was how he used the phrase "getting a full workload", coupled with Jones entirely coming off the injury report (he's still got to be dealing with that ankle a bit, I'd think).

Here's the theory: BB believes Zappe has played better and he's probably inclined to start him, all else being equal. Between the media chorus that Jones got shafted, done dirty, so-to-speak + the locker-room comments about the situation being unfair / "messed up", BB spoke with the team leaders and they told him something to the effect of, "it'll be easier for us to accept this if we feel he got a fair shake" ... or maybe he just came to that conclusion on his own.

So he totally removes Jones from the injury report to silence any speculation that Jones is playing hurt, or that his play is at all influenced by injury. He gives Jones a full game without invention to sink or swim ("he's getting a full workload"), and if it's more of the same, I think we'll see Zappe starting sooner than later. By taking this approach, even if BB does ultimately end up starting Zappe at some point, he's able to create the perception in the locker-room that Jones - a respected team captain returning from injury - got a fair deal.

The other thing that jumped out to me yesterday were the beat reporters all onenote saying Jones starter status is not assured. Curran and Perry, both of whom up until yesterday were confidently, boldly in the camp of, "this is Jones' team, he's the starter", are now all saying this presser sent a message (which was not a vote of confidence), and that Jones is going to have to earn it every game moving forward.

 

[Zuma]

I know this doesn't fit your narrative but Mac has thrown in the short zone (<15 yards) 74% of the time (76 att) and deep 26% of the time (27 att). He's been accurate short (75%) and not so much deep (37%).

All this info is right on the forum you use every day: 2022 New England Patriots Stats | Sortable 3rd Down, Red Zone Passing and Rushing Patriots Stats.

View attachment 46706

I know their are many things that can factor into why Deep Left is not so good and I'm sure they evaluate that along with everything else. For some reason it seems like he stares down his receivers more in that area. I also don't think he is resetting his feet that well after moving in the pocket.