Likely Receiving core: What do you think?

[bagwell368]

People thinking that Amendola is going to be Welker #2 are hoping against all of NFL history.

You're the one ignoring NFL history. Small WR's in their early 30's moving toward their middle 30's are not as good as they were from 25-30. Welker's drop rate has increased alarmingly has it not? He's been taking more flush hits than he used to, does he not?

BB knows a lot more about his business then we do. If he decided on Amendola over Welker, I'm going to give it a chance. You may feel free to let anxiety run your life as a fan - what does it get you in the end?

 

[Coach42]

Why? The team was supposed to be flush with cash. Did it fix the WR problem?

No, it made it worse, downgrading from both Welker and Lloyd. They screwed up, big time.

So where was all this cash suppose to go? Welker? Even if they did resign him the WR position is still seriously suspect.

 

[Deus Irae]

You're the one ignoring NFL history. Small WR's in their early 30's moving toward their middle 30's are not as good as they were from 25-30. Welker's drop rate has increased alarmingly has it not? He's been taking more flush hits than he used to, does he not?

This has been gone over multiple times. People with Welker's numbers tend to stay quite productive into their 30's.

BB knows a lot more about his business then we do. If he decided on Amendola over Welker, I'm going to give it a chance.

You're welcome to be a bleating sheep all you want. Others of us prefer to use the message board for a more analytical mode of discussion than "BB! Gotta be right!". No player in history has put up the numbers that Welker has, in terms of the number of 110+ catch seasons.

You may feel free to let anxiety run your life as a fan - what does it get you in the end?

My life is many things, and not all of them are are moonlight walks with supermodels and swimming with the dolphins. Run by anxiety is absolutely, positively, not one of them, however.

 

[Deus Irae]

So where was all this cash suppose to go? Welker? Even if they did resign him the WR position is still seriously suspect.

This has been gone over before, time and again. There were plenty of options available this year. And, yes, keeping Welker was certainly one of them.

 

[supafly]

The entire positional grouping consists of one starter and a bunch of players who can't stay healthy, and who don't do much even when they are healthy.

I think we'll all feel a little better after the next couple of weeks, when the draft and any other options are likely to be explored.

I would have rather it stayed the same too, with improvement coming from the draft, but Belichick seemed to have other ideas and didn't feel that Llyod was worth the money. We don't know at the moment what those other ideas are.

People thinking that Amendola is going to be Welker #2 are hoping against all of NFL history. Will they be right?

It's possible, but highly unlikely, even if Amendola somehow manages to stay on the field, which is also possible but highly unlikely.

I'm not going to be one of those people who think that Amendola is going to necessarily improve the position, but I do think that the slot position itself tends to see a lot of targets--as our offense is predicated by that type of attack, so that's why I am not as concerned.

If that's the case and it continues, then there's no reason Amendola and Edelman (if injury occurs) shouldn't be able to produce around 85-90 catches. It isn't the # of catches that I'm concerned with, the other 30 catches can be spread around, or even lessened due to attempts; it's the entire scheme of the offense and its ability to improve upon the lack of speed and weaknesses that you've got to consider too. At least that's the way I am choosing to look at it anyway.

The injury concern may be lessened due to the Edelman signing as insurance, along with the fact that Amendola's injuries were not of the Aqib Talib nagging type = same old, same old.

We won't know if this was the right move or not for quite some time, so this will probably be a controversial subject for awhile.

 

[ivanvamp]

There are still some interesting options out there at WR:

UFAs
Steve Breaston
- 6'1", 175 lbs, 29 yrs old
- best season: 2008 - 77 rec, 1006 yds, 3 td
- 4.43 40 time

Laurent Robinson
- 6'2", 192 lbs, 27 yrs old
- best season: 2011 - 54 rec, 858 yds, 11 td
- 4.38 40 time

Early Doucet
- 6'0", 211 lbs, 27 yrs old
- best season: 2011 - 54 rec, 689 yds, 5 td
- 4.47 40 time

Joshua Cribbs
- 6'1", 192 lbs, 27 yrs old
- best season: 2011 - 41 rec, 518 yds, 4 td
- 4.45 40 time

Devery Henderson
- 5'11", 200 lbs, 31 yrs old
- best season: 2009 - 51 rec, 804 yds, 2 td
- 4.41 40 time

Randy Moss
(yeah, I know, I know)

Brandon Lloyd
(we know what he is)

RFAs
Victor Cruz
Danario Alexander


I'd love it if the Pats signed Laurent Robinson, Early Doucet, and Devery Henderson to inexpensive contracts and gave them a shot. Robinson has an abundance of talent, but has some strange concussion issues. If he's ok, he's a terrific receiver. Doucet and Henderson are solid veteran guys. Sign those three guys to short, inexpensive contracts, and let them battle it out. A receiving corps with a healthy Robinson is seriously upgraded. Of course, he may not be healthy, but it's worth a look-see anyway. Doucet and Henderson are good pros and probably are better than what they currently have down on the depth chart.

These guys should represent low-risk investments that could prove very beneficial.

 

[supafly]

These guys should represent low-risk investments that could prove very beneficial.

I agree that we're likely to see another vet or two to add to the competition, however it's hard to judge exactly who that may be as we'll all have differing opinions.

One thing I try to keep in mind is that there are a lot of attributes that go into selecting a player to compete here, so they have to be a fit in more ways than we as fans see it. I think a lot of the time we simply look at "names" from other teams without knowing potential scheme fit, attitude and work ethic, character, intelligence, leadership capabilities etc.

If this team were made up solely on fans' thoughts stemming from talent, it'd certainly look a lot different. Not that I'm knocking your list at all, although I'm probably not as confident as you are in those players either, especially Robinson.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think we'll all feel a little better after the next couple of weeks, when the draft and any other options are likely to be explored.

I would have rather it stayed the same too, with improvement coming from the draft, but Belichick seemed to have other ideas and didn't feel that Llyod was worth the money. We don't know at the moment what those other ideas are.



I'm not going to be one of those people who think that Amendola is going to necessarily improve the position, but I do think that the slot position itself tends to see a lot of targets--as our offense is predicated by that type of attack, so that's why I am not as concerned.

If that's the case and it continues, then there's no reason Amendola and Edelman (if injury occurs) shouldn't be able to produce around 85-90 catches. It isn't the # of catches that I'm concerned with, the other 30 catches can be spread around, or even lessened due to attempts; it's the entire scheme of the offense and its ability to improve upon the lack of speed and weaknesses that you've got to consider too. At least that's the way I am choosing to look at it anyway.

The injury concern may be lessened due to the Edelman signing as insurance, along with the fact that Amendola's injuries were not of the Aqib Talib nagging type = same old, same old.

We won't know if this was the right move or not for quite some time, so this will probably be a controversial subject for awhile.

Saying you want to wait is one thing, although that sort of precludes you discussing what's happened to date beyond "too soon to talk about it" in any fair manner.

Saying Amedola is better, or even that he is more of a downfield threat is another thing entirely, though, because neither of those is really supported by the evidence. For all the 'Amendola will be better at the deeper pass' stuff, Welker's career YPC is almost 2.5 higher than Amendola's, and he's never averaged under 10 ypc while Amendola got above 10 ypc for the first time last season. Welker's also gotten the longer "longest reception" in 3 of Amendola's 4 NFL seasons, and the only year Amendola had the longer catch, it was by one yard, in 2010, 36 yards compared to 35 yards.

Even in the pre-NE years, Welker was averaging better than 10 ypc and his season longest catches were longer than 3 of Amendola's 4 season longest.

 

[supafly]

Saying you want to wait is one thing, although that sort of precludes you discussing what's happened to date beyond "too soon to talk about it" in any fair manner.

Saying Amedola is better, or even that he is more of a downfield threat is another thing entirely, though, because neither of those is really supported by the evidence. For all the 'Amendola will be better at the deeper pass' stuff, Welker's career YPC is almost 2.5 higher than Amendola's, and he's never averaged under 10 ypc while Amendola got above 10 ypc for the first time last season. Welker's also gotten the longer "longest reception" in 3 of Amendola's 4 NFL seasons, and the only year Amendola had the longer catch, it was by one yard, in 2010, 36 yards compared to 35 yards.

Even in the pre-NE years, Welker was averaging better than 10 ypc and his season longest catches were longer than 3 of Amendola's 4 season longest.

Fair enough, Deus.

I'm just trying to remind some that while we all have concerns over certain aspects about Amendola, he also has the potential to improve on some traits too. That doesn't mean I think he'll necessarily outproduce Welker, but there are people who feel that he has better hands (as shown by his drop ratio), better speed/3 cone time (although one was even and one went to DA), is younger, taller, and will be able to offer more as a traditional outside receiver here as opposed to Welker.

I think it's a bit unfair to make too much of a comparison at this point because one was catching the ball in the oh-so-talented scheme of the STL Rams, while the other was in the high powered NEP attack catching balls from one of the greatest QB's of all-time.

To be completely fair, Amendola has produced more in his first couple/few yrs than Welker did when we brought him here, so we should remember that too. This scheme and working with Tom Brady should make just about any receiver's numbers look improved, and Amendola may benefit from that too. Either way, we will probably continue to use the slot/shorter passing attack in many of the same ways in terms of # of targets. That is why I personally don't see as much concern as maybe you might.

 

[Deus Irae]

To be completely fair, Amendola has produced more in his first couple/few yrs than Welker did when we brought him here, so we should remember that too.

In Welker's two pre-NE seasons as a WR, he averaged 48 catches and 560 yards, despite playing with Chris Chambers, Randy McMichael and Marty Booker. Amendola has averaged, for his career, 49 catches and 432 yards, largely as his team's #1 option.

People keep trying to paint a picture about Amendola that's just not been there. Will it be there moving forward? I certainly hope so.

 

[ivanvamp]

I agree that we're likely to see another vet or two to add to the competition, however it's hard to judge exactly who that may be as we'll all have differing opinions.

One thing I try to keep in mind is that there are a lot of attributes that go into selecting a player to compete here, so they have to be a fit in more ways than we as fans see it. I think a lot of the time we simply look at "names" from other teams without knowing potential scheme fit, attitude and work ethic, character, intelligence, leadership capabilities etc.

If this team were made up solely on fans' thoughts stemming from talent, it'd certainly look a lot different. Not that I'm knocking your list at all, although I'm probably not as confident as you are in those players either, especially Robinson.

Well, look, I'm certainly not arguing that these guys are hall of famers or anything remotely like that. But they have established some level of success in the NFL and the fact is the Patriots could use some more receivers like that. Will they sign any of these guys? Who knows. I'd like them too, because in my opinion, they are better than most of the guys the Patriots currently have.

 

[Coach42]

This has been gone over before, time and again. There were plenty of options available this year. And, yes, keeping Welker was certainly one of them.

Like.........

 

[bagwell368]

This has been gone over multiple times. People with Welker's numbers tend to stay quite productive into their 30's.

Like Alworth and Pearson retired at age 32 - the age Welker will be this year. Rison, Reed, Largent, so many more with zero or one "elite" year after age 31. Let's see your list, or a pointer to it.

You're welcome to be a bleating sheep all you want. Others of us prefer to use the message board for a more analytical mode of discussion than "BB! Gotta be right!". No player in history has put up the numbers that Welker has, in terms of the number of 110+ catch seasons.

You fell for into this trap. It has nothing to do with being a bleating sheep, although you fit the bleating part. You are saying your judgement is better than BB's when it comes to the near term future of the Patriots. That's either ridiculous or narcissistic on your part.

My life is many things, and not all of them are are moonlight walks with supermodels and swimming with the dolphins. Run by anxiety is absolutely, positively, not one of them, however.

Perhaps you merely express yourself in a mode other than you feel for whatever reason you have. I don't care why. Sometimes your posts are excellent, but this pre draft whining is annoying, and without foundation when comparing the Patriots to other teams roster moves since 2000. I think you are comparing the Patriots to some level of perfection, not reality in the NFL as it exists since 2000.

 

[Rob0729]

There are still some interesting options out there at WR:

UFAs
Steve Breaston
- 6'1", 175 lbs, 29 yrs old
- best season: 2008 - 77 rec, 1006 yds, 3 td
- 4.43 40 time

Laurent Robinson
- 6'2", 192 lbs, 27 yrs old
- best season: 2011 - 54 rec, 858 yds, 11 td
- 4.38 40 time

Early Doucet
- 6'0", 211 lbs, 27 yrs old
- best season: 2011 - 54 rec, 689 yds, 5 td
- 4.47 40 time

Joshua Cribbs
- 6'1", 192 lbs, 27 yrs old
- best season: 2011 - 41 rec, 518 yds, 4 td
- 4.45 40 time

Devery Henderson
- 5'11", 200 lbs, 31 yrs old
- best season: 2009 - 51 rec, 804 yds, 2 td
- 4.41 40 time

Randy Moss
(yeah, I know, I know)

Brandon Lloyd
(we know what he is)

RFAs
Victor Cruz
Danario Alexander


I'd love it if the Pats signed Laurent Robinson, Early Doucet, and Devery Henderson to inexpensive contracts and gave them a shot. Robinson has an abundance of talent, but has some strange concussion issues. If he's ok, he's a terrific receiver. Doucet and Henderson are solid veteran guys. Sign those three guys to short, inexpensive contracts, and let them battle it out. A receiving corps with a healthy Robinson is seriously upgraded. Of course, he may not be healthy, but it's worth a look-see anyway. Doucet and Henderson are good pros and probably are better than what they currently have down on the depth chart.

These guys should represent low-risk investments that could prove very beneficial.

You forgot Austin Collie. Big injury risk. But if he can stay healthy (and that is a really big if), he can be an elite WR in this system. His a low risk, high reward type of player. Unfortunately, you cannot rely on him playing 16 games.

 

[Kontradiction]

You forgot Austin Collie. Big injury risk. But if he can stay healthy (and that is a really big if), he can be an elite WR in this system. His a low risk, high reward type of player. Unfortunately, you cannot rely on him playing 16 games.

At this point, we have enough of the "but if he can stay healthy..." guys. I'd rather go to the draft where there are very good prospects that don't have as checkered an injury history such as Austin Collie.

 

[Rob0729]

At this point, we have enough of the "but if he can stay healthy..." guys. I'd rather go to the draft where there are very good prospects that don't have as checkered an injury history such as Austin Collie.

Collie is going to get an one year veteran minimum deal. They can definitely keep him on the roster and still draft a WR or even two high if they choose to. If Collie can stay healthy, he could be a 1,200-1,300 yard receiver with 10 plus TDs .

I wouldn't give him any more than an one year, veteran minimum deal like Jenkins got, but he is worth kicking the tires on.

 

[Huckleberry1]

The only silver lining to the Patriots situation at WR is that this draft is loaded at WR, I don't care if they use all their picks on them just long as they find a real fix for the unit.

 

[Brady6]

You forgot Austin Collie. Big injury risk. But if he can stay healthy (and that is a really big if), he can be an elite WR in this system. His a low risk, high reward type of player. Unfortunately, you cannot rely on him playing 16 games.

Is he going to play football again though? Heard he might be done.

 

[Brady6]

Collie is going to get an one year veteran minimum deal. They can definitely keep him on the roster and still draft a WR or even two high if they choose to. If Collie can stay healthy, he could be a 1,200-1,300 yard receiver with 10 plus TDs .

I wouldn't give him any more than an one year, veteran minimum deal like Jenkins got, but he is worth kicking the tires on.

I don't know about all that but maybe 800-1000 yards and 6 touchdowns which is still very much worth the veteran minimum deal and the potential risk.

 

[Rob0729]

Is he going to play football again though? Heard he might be done.

He says emphatically that he will play again. It might be out of his control though.