Lee Smith and Alge Crumpler.

[DaBruinz]

This is wearing quite thin. The only supporting evidence is an opinion that you think he is a blocking tight end and his inability to catch the ball like the other blocking TE's dosn't matter. Well it did matter in the last playoff game when this vet whiffed on his TD. Gronk is a blocking TE and he challenged catch,yardage, and TD records as did Hernandez. You think these guys didn't do there share of blocking. Smith is a blocling TE one of the best in this draft and he showed good recieveing records. If all you want out of Crumpler is another blocker on the line put in another OT to do his work.

What inability to catch the ball?? How many drops did Crumpler have?? How many times was he targeted?? Where are YOUR facts to back up your claim??

What records did Gronkowski and Hernandez challenge? Rookie records? Who cares....

Gronkowski is an all-around TE who happens to be a good, not great (yet), blocker. Hernandez is a WR wearing TE clothing.

Lee Smith hasn't done a damn thing in the NFL. How many times have we seen the "best of (name your position)" come into the NFL and flop? One only has to look at SI's list of Draft Busts to see 20 of them...

It's really pathetic that you ignore the LEADERSHIP that Crumpler brings to the team.

 

[DaBruinz]

Are you incapable of doing your own research? I have layed out available facts that support my claims and expect you to do the same. The problem for you is you will not find any recent lists of top TE's with his name on it, which is what you need . I have yet to find any published rateings that list Crumpler as an elite or even top TE. In fact most lists do not even have his name on them. I am not here to do your research for you or be questioned by you, yet the more I read the more I find your claim is unsupportable. Then the defence for your point is name calling and insults revieling your level of competence, I believe this conversation is over, point set, match.

part-timer <-------:bricks:

Seriously, dude. You lost and you can't even be bothered to admit you were wrong. No one claimed that Crumpler was an ELITE TE anymoe. He was. But he excels as an ELITE BLOCKING TE. Just because there isn't an exact listing for you to find doesn't mean it's no the truth. Acting like some internet list is the Be all- End All to your argument shows how weak your argument really is.

OH, and all you did was cherry-pick receiving stats as if that was the ONLY thing that TEs are graded on.

 

[DaBruinz]

Johnsons own explanation is holding more weight than speculation that Crumpler was the reason for Johnsons success. also looking back I see a reference to:FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | TIGHT ENDS 2010
showing TE stats, which if you follow Crumps career back to 01 shows a spuratic rise for his first 4 years then a slow than rapid decline in productivity in every catigory. his overall rankings follow: 01-21st,02-5th,03-16th,04-8th,05-20th,06-19th,07-22nd,08-29th,09-32nd,10-53rd. It doesen't take much thought to see he is at the end of his career, and even at the top of his game he was spuratic. Also even at the top of his game he never put up the stats and rankings that Gronkowski and Hernandez have in their rookie years(overall 2nd. and 5th.). I can't understand the disrespect you posters have for your new star TE's by insisting they need Crumpler to be successful when Crumpler never reached the point that our New TE's have started at. Crumpler did serve a valuble contribution to the team helping breakin the rookies but the coaching staf had a lot to do with it to. Now the team needs contributors, not cheerleaders. He should retire befors becomeing dead weight and give way to the future.

The only disrespect being given is by you to Alge Crumpler. You continue to trot out stats that have next to nothing to do with the issue. Which is Crumpler's value to this team as a veteran leader and elite blocking TE.

BTW, you really should read the site you reference:

These statistics measure only passes thrown to the tight end, not performance on plays when he is not thrown the ball, such as blocking and drawing double teams.

So, they do not apply when evaluating Crumpler as a blocker. And before you suggest putting Maneri on the field again, please stop and think about that. If BB thought that putting Maneri on the field would have been better than putting Crumpler on the field, he'd have done it. To suggest otherwise would mean you think that BB wasn't putting the best players for the situation on the field.

OH, and btw, Crumpler got down to 262 prior to camp last season. It was one of the big topics of training camp. How he showed up in better shape than he'd ever been in.

 

[DaBruinz]

Personal opinions. Show me some articles, publications anything that say's Crumpler measures up to your opinion. If it is as you say so obvious you should have no problem provideing a multitude of links to profesional sports writers praiseing Crumpler for his invaluble contribution to the team.

All you guys can come up with are adjectives and adverbs.
At least CALCIUMEE is makeing an attempt to do the research to defend his point instead of being lazy and hopeing for someone else to do so.

I complement CALCIUMEE on his contribution and disrespect those who simply want to spout B***S*** and have their lazy uninformed opinion excepted as proof.

Coming from the guy who wants his own lazy, uninformed opinion accepted as truth. And yes, YOUR opinioin is lazy and uninformed since you can't be bothered to look at the game film instead of just the stats... Stats don't tell the whole story. They never do. Only an imbecile makes a complete decision based on stats and nothing else.

 

[DaBruinz]

I presented all available fact dealing with TE's showing Crumplers lack of value.
You expect ME to find a way for you to defend your point of view? WHAT?
You state the measurables used for ALL other TE's in the NFL do not matter when it comes to Crumpler? WHAT?
The closest you have come is to quote "ROTO world" rumor mill's speculation that Crumpler (esentialy a sixth lineman) may return in 2011 is extreemly lame, especialy since the quote came out in Jan. and the OL was in shambles. Now after the draft the OL isn't looking so bad and we may not need that extra "SIXTH LINEMAN". Your article not mine. If Crump is doing a linemans job let a lineman do it.

God. You really are a complete idiot.
Even the website you quoted said that they have no evaluation method for TEs on plays in which they are blocking.

The measurables you quoted are only for ONE FACET of a TE's game. It is not the be all end all for evaluations of TEs.

 

[ausbacker]

I'm not really sure why part-timer is arguing against Crumpler? He had a fantastic year for the Patriots.. and nobody needs to see any stat line to know that.

 

[DaBruinz]

Oswlek: if so it was over looked. Unfortunately I have dealt with a Pack atack because of an infatuation with Crumpler. Obviously we are on opisite end of the value of Crumpler but on the bright side we are on the same side wanting the best decisions to be made for the benifit of the Pats. I suppose we could agree to disagree.

You've dealt with a "Pack Attack" because your a buffoon who doesn't understand that stats do not tell the whole story. Certainly not in evaluating TEs where 80% of their job is BLOCKING and 20% is receiving, unless you are Dallas Clark or Tony Gonzalez. Then those %s are reversed.

BTW, jeff wasn't the only one who mentioned Smith longsnapping. I mentioned it in one of my posts that if Smith could long snap then it would be Katula that would be gone and not Crumpler. But, you ignored that because you were on your anti-Crumpler ranting.

 

[DaBruinz]

Good question. I put it in the same catigory as a blocking fullback, which has become used less and less, usualy filled by an OG or even a OLB. BB has done this. A "blocking TE could be filled by an extra OT such as Maneri or even an OLB such as when Varable did so. To use up a roster spot for a limited use player can be destructive.

If I listed all the blocking fullbacks that are in the league, you're head would probably explode. While BB hasn't used them since he let Evans go, they are still valuable. And many teams have proven that. Including the Chargers, Titans, Jets, Falcons, Ravens, and Steelers.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm not really sure why part-timer is arguing against Crumpler? He had a fantastic year for the Patriots.. and nobody needs to see any stat line to know that.

Given the content of his arguments, he's got to be a troll.

 

[ausbacker]

Given the content of his arguments, he's got to be a troll.

It's silly. I don't understand the point on wasting your time trolling away on other teams when there is so much reasonable discussion to be had.

 

[Off The Grid]

~ It's amazing that someone could watch a full season of Crump without recognizing how devastating of a blocker he is.

~ Why people are trying to convince someone who argues so vehemently against such an obvious fact is puzzling.

~ Observant Pats fans value and enjoy watching Crump pancake people on a regular basis.

Worth repeating!! This "discussion" is HILARIOUS!!

 

[supafly]

Yeah I agree that it's more than obvious that barring some strange turn of events, Crumpler will certainly be around.

Moving back to a much more physical approach makes it even likelier, as he is one who's blocking skills are completely unquestioned. You simply cannot replace the blocking skills + leadership abilities that he currently provides--and you surely can't do it with an unheralded rookie (not 'yet' anyway).

As I said before, Smith would really have to bring it for the discussion even to come about, or maybe if Crumpler's surgery didn't totally heal etc.

Alge is just one of those guys that goes under the radar now, and provides a pivotal role in the trenches that does not get enough flashy attention. I just couldn't imagine why else anyone would be counting on his being ousted by an unproven rookie already?

Smith may be the future, and who better to hone in on some of those blocking techniques than Crumpler himself?? Smith should be able to provide depth at the position, learn from one of the greats at something he is already pretty darn good at himself, and possibly even challenge a ST-only role by showing his longsnapping ability. Other than that, I wouldn't expect too much besides some learning curve reps throughout the season, and maybe some goal line presence (barring an injury of course, then he's thrown to the wolves). I would have to guess that we carry 4, I just couldn't see it any other way.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Crumpler has two things that will not be seen in TE Rankings

That is HEART and LEADERSHiP that our 2 sensational younger TEs were able to be taught by one of the smartest veteran TEs to play in today's game.

Is Crumpler a big famous game changer or a highly recognizable part of this team by people outside of NE?...no

But what he gives us besides his superb blocking skills is more than enough reason to keep him around another season.

I hate to see people look at that playoff game and want him gone because of that drop for a TD,Crump deserves better than that from Pats fans.

 

[part-timer]

Well it appears that someone has been pritty busy going on a multipage rant all by himself. I must say it is strange finding out about this infatuation but I can't say i am flattered. Now lets see, Your first post was dealing with attributing BJGE's 1st 1000 yd rushing season in 2010 to Crump, I suppose in 08 which was the best rushing season in since 1985 with a total of 2278 yds and the most rushing TD's since 1981 was just a fluke, Crump was'nt there then ,was he? Also BJGE comeing out from the shadows of LM and haveing a chance to break out doesn't deserve the credit for understanding the Pats zone blocking system beter than LM matters at all ? Now that sholder injury, possibly wear and tear on a 33 year old "BLOCKING TE" sounds like a problem, one he may have put off to compleat his final year in the NFL.Im also supprised to find out on the entire roster and coaching staff Crump is the only leader.Also incedently Crumps total cap is $3,008,120 not just under 2 mill. Next you moved on to 09's rushing stats, the dip 08 to 09 might have had something to do with the fact that the Passing game was the focus with Brady putting up 4398 yds, Moss recieveing 1264 yds, Welker recieveing 1348 yds, and we had a 32,33,33yr old runing back stable with LM being the only premier back danceing around all season, only for us to find out he played with a sholder injury. Maby that is why the spead was the primary option. You would like to compare the recovery rate of a 33 yr old to a 21 yr old? Don't let it bother you Aaron looked fine last time I saw him.I found it funny when you called me out for my oppinion that Crump is overpaid and overhyped, true but that is ALL I have gotten from you. Next you wanted to know how many passes Crump dropped well I told you he cought 10 passes and had a 60% catch rate, do the math. You say you could care less of the rookie TE's records (thats a real pats fan), let me repeate Gronkowski's 10 td's makes him only the 4th Pat to do so in a class with Randy Moss, Stanly Morgan, and Jim Calclough. and only the 2nd rookie in NFL history only behind Mike Ditka. Hernandez 45 reception most by Pats rookie since 1986, 563 yds.most since 1975 not to mention 6 td's. You could care less, well you shoule care more, Crump never did that. You say well Smith hasn't done anything, well 1 year ago so didn't Gronkowski or hernandez, in fact this board bit-ched about bad back and drug adict, and if Crump stays Smith will not get the rep needed to progress and mature.Next you denied the term ELITE TE has not been thrown around, reread the posts.I continue to place fact in fron of you and you call my possition weak but I still only see subjective oppinion from you, that is weak.You continue to cry that TE stats don't pertain to Crump because they dont account for blocks and doubleteems, lets put this argoment to rest once and for all. WR's judged by recieveing stats, Don't take into account doubleteam and blocks, DL, lb judged by pressures,qb hits sacks don't take into account doubleteams and plays being directed away from their side, DB's judged by int's,pass break ups don't account for qb's throwing the ball away because of coverage,or throwing away from a good DB, or the DB that risks and gives up big plays to go for the int padding his stat, the RB that get shut down by 8 in the box or lack of blocking, HOW FAR do you want to push this EXCUSE?
On to 144 angin with the insults good argument. 145 again with the insults and name calling intelligent, and the EXCUSE that can go for any possition on the field.147 More name calling an insults, and defending the same EXCUSE. BB hasn't used them since he has gone predominently to a zone blocking system in which the FB just gets in the way for the RB's ability to find the hole. When he go's man he will use a HB,RB, or even in goal short yardage a lineman or LB. And yess the FB has been a dyeing breed.

I don't believe I took the time to respond to your extensive tirade since there was little to no substance to it, and I relize logic does not enter into the reasoning of this subject for you. I hope you see that your EXCUSE can be worked into the evaluation of every possition on the field if you want to ignore the stats and facts.

 

[Calciumee]

Well it appears that someone has been pritty busy going on a multipage rant all by himself. I must say it is strange finding out about this infatuation but I can't say i am flattered. Now lets see, Your first post was dealing with attributing BJGE's 1st 1000 yd rushing season in 2010 to Crump, I suppose in 08 which was the best rushing season in since 1985 with a total of 2278 yds and the most rushing TD's since 1981 was just a fluke, Crump was'nt there then ,was he? Also BJGE comeing out from the shadows of LM and haveing a chance to break out doesn't deserve the credit for understanding the Pats zone blocking system beter than LM matters at all ? Now that sholder injury, possibly wear and tear on a 33 year old "BLOCKING TE" sounds like a problem, one he may have put off to compleat his final year in the NFL.Im also supprised to find out on the entire roster and coaching staff Crump is the only leader.Also incedently Crumps total cap is $3,008,120 not just under 2 mill. Next you moved on to 09's rushing stats, the dip 08 to 09 might have had something to do with the fact that the Passing game was the focus with Brady putting up 4398 yds, Moss recieveing 1264 yds, Welker recieveing 1348 yds, and we had a 32,33,33yr old runing back stable with LM being the only premier back danceing around all season, only for us to find out he played with a sholder injury. Maby that is why the spead was the primary option. You would like to compare the recovery rate of a 33 yr old to a 21 yr old? Don't let it bother you Aaron looked fine last time I saw him.I found it funny when you called me out for my oppinion that Crump is overpaid and overhyped, true but that is ALL I have gotten from you. Next you wanted to know how many passes Crump dropped well I told you he cought 10 passes and had a 60% catch rate, do the math. You say you could care less of the rookie TE's records (thats a real pats fan), let me repeate Gronkowski's 10 td's makes him only the 4th Pat to do so in a class with Randy Moss, Stanly Morgan, and Jim Calclough. and only the 2nd rookie in NFL history only behind Mike Ditka. Hernandez 45 reception most by Pats rookie since 1986, 563 yds.most since 1975 not to mention 6 td's. You could care less, well you shoule care more, Crump never did that. You say well Smith hasn't done anything, well 1 year ago so didn't Gronkowski or hernandez, in fact this board bit-ched about bad back and drug adict, and if Crump stays Smith will not get the rep needed to progress and mature.Next you denied the term ELITE TE has not been thrown around, reread the posts.I continue to place fact in fron of you and you call my possition weak but I still only see subjective oppinion from you, that is weak.You continue to cry that TE stats don't pertain to Crump because they dont account for blocks and doubleteems, lets put this argoment to rest once and for all. WR's judged by recieveing stats, Don't take into account doubleteam and blocks, DL, lb judged by pressures,qb hits sacks don't take into account doubleteams and plays being directed away from their side, DB's judged by int's,pass break ups don't account for qb's throwing the ball away because of coverage,or throwing away from a good DB, or the DB that risks and gives up big plays to go for the int padding his stat, the RB that get shut down by 8 in the box or lack of blocking, HOW FAR do you want to push this EXCUSE?
On to 144 angin with the insults good argument. 145 again with the insults and name calling intelligent, and the EXCUSE that can go for any possition on the field.147 More name calling an insults, and defending the same EXCUSE. BB hasn't used them since he has gone predominently to a zone blocking system in which the FB just gets in the way for the RB's ability to find the hole. When he go's man he will use a HB,RB, or even in goal short yardage a lineman or LB. And yess the FB has been a dyeing breed.

I don't believe I took the time to respond to your extensive tirade since there was little to no substance to it, and I relize logic does not enter into the reasoning of this subject for you. I hope you see that your EXCUSE can be worked into the evaluation of every possition on the field if you want to ignore the stats and facts.

Part-Timer meet Enter Button! Use it occasionally!

 

[Off The Grid]

Effing HILARIOUS!!

 

[ausbacker]

That was painful.

 

[Haley]

Okay, wow. That wall-o-text was pretty hard to read but I picked out a couple things:

You say well Smith hasn't done anything, well 1 year ago so didn't Gronkowski or hernandez

This is true but keep in mind there is a lockout on right now that didn't exist last year. If this persists it will have an impact on the rookies and the number of snaps they receive, particularly in the early part of the season. The best player in the world isn't going to help a team they have never played with.

if Crump stays Smith will not get the rep needed to progress and mature.

You are speculating, and in direct contradiction to your earlier point.

Smith will take snaps as soon as he proves he can handle them just like Gronk and Hernandez did. I fail to see why the coaching staff would handle this rookie TE any differently than they handled the last 2. If he proves he can do it, he'll get his shot.

Sorry if I missed other points you were making in there.

 

[tobias funke]

Some of you seem to be missing the most important stat-line of all:

QB Tom Brady -- 962 of 1,012 (95.1 percent)
TE Rob Gronkowski -- 756 of 1,012 (74.7 percent)
WR Wes Welker -- 715 of 1,012 (70.7 percent)
TE Alge Crumpler -- 540 of 1,012 (53.4 percent)

4th-highest snap count of all skill position players on the team. Somebody must value his physical contributions to the team....

 

[RussFrancis]

There's only one thing that worries me about Smith....the waiver wire. Because we're gonna more than likely have to try and sneak him onto the practice squad. Best case scenario, Crumpler, Gronk and Aaron are all healthy, and able to go. And I cant see us keeping 4 at this position on the 53, considering how good each of those are at what they do. So, the issue with Smith will be hoping some other team doesnt cherry pick him off the wire. Face it, our 4th best TE is someone else's 2nd. Otherwise, I really like the pick as well as the player. He wont do us any good playing for Cleveland next year.