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LB's and the 4-3

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DaBruinz, do you think, with having to look at bringing in new LB talent, that the Pats will look for 3-4 talent or switch the D scheme to fit value players they may get in the draft, and or players availeable in FA?

Maybe not this yr but next.?

I would like them to target players for the 3-4 as it is a more versatile D.?
 
PatsSteve1 said:
* So who do you think that will be that 4th LB ? I think BB is going to get one that's not currently on the roster
Just like he'll realize that Bruschi isn't fast enough to play MLB in a 3-4 at his increasing age.
 
wrangler said:
DaBruinz, do you think, with having to look at bringing in new LB talent, that the Pats will look for 3-4 talent or switch the D scheme to fit value players they may get in the draft, and or players availeable in FA?

Maybe not this yr but next.?

I would like them to target players for the 3-4 as it is a more versatile D.?

Wrangler -
The LBs that the Pats have are still best suited for the 3-4 defense. And, that is why I believe that the Pats will be looking at an OLB in the draft and leaving Vrabel at the ILB position with Beisel and Claridge right behind him and Bruschi. So, no, I don't believe that the Pats will change their defensive scheme. Belichick has put significant time and effort into forming this defense

Linebacker, as an over-all position, is very strong in the draft. The problem comes from breaking down the LB position into the 3 different LB positions. The strongest LB position in the draft is the OLB position, particularly when you take into consideration the potential DE conversions. That is followed by the MLB and then finally the ILB positiions. Yes, ILB is the weakest of the LB positions in my honest opinion.

Taking into consideration what is available and what the Pats current roster has, that is why I feel OLB will be the position they draft before ILB.

I am not sure that there are any players available in free agency, anymore, that would be a good fit for the Patriots scheme. The Patriots looked at Jamie Sharper last year and decided against him. Brad Kassell might be a possibility at ILB, but I doubt it.
 
BelichickFan said:
Just like he'll realize that Bruschi isn't fast enough to play MLB in a 3-4 at his increasing age.

BelichickFan -
Umm, I know that Bruschi isn't able to play the MLB position. Its why I said that I didn't feel the 4-3 was an option.
 
DaBruinz said:
Umm, I know that Bruschi isn't able to play the MLB position. Its why I said that I didn't feel the 4-3 was an option.
I know, that was directed at PatsSteve1. I think I misunderstood his point slightly but the bottom line is there is little to go after at ILB at this time.
 
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PatsSteve1 said:
* So who do you think that will be that 4th LB ? I think BB is going to get one that's not currently on the roster

Still haven't learned how to quote people, I see. However, I am of the same opinion that the 4th starting LB is not currently on the team. I believe it will be the 1st LB that the Pats take. Either in the 1st or 3rd round.
 
BelichickFan said:
I know, that was directed at PatsSteve1. I think I misunderstood his point slightly but the bottom line is there is little to go after at ILB at this time.

Ok. No harm :>
 
Thx DB, yes ILB is a hard one. Last June(?) on the ESPN board I said Vrabel to ILB to fill for TB, go figure I got 1 right lol.

So, Vrabel stays inside and we get another OLB?

What about Beisel, I think he could be a starter inside. He showed discipline after a few games, get him to react not think, he could be ok.?
 
wrangler said:
Thx DB, yes ILB is a hard one. Last June(?) on the ESPN board I said Vrabel to ILB to fill for TB, go figure I got 1 right lol.

So, Vrabel stays inside and we get another OLB?

What about Beisel, I think he could be a starter inside. He showed discipline after a few games, get him to react not think, he could be ok.?

Yes, I believe that the Pats will add an OLB.

As for Beisel, it will depend on how much time he spent with Bruschi, Vrabel, Pees and Pepper Johnson going over film. Also, Beisel needs to have worked to put on 10-15 lbs. If he can get close to 253, improve his reactions and his technique, then I think he could be a good starter. But, that is a tall order.
 
wrangler said:
What about Beisel, I think he could be a starter inside. He showed discipline after a few games, get him to react not think, he could be ok.?
Most here don't think he can do it. I think there's at least a chance and I wouldn't be shocked if he's out there next to Tedy on opening day. Sure he had problems in the first half but he had Chad Brown next to him and Wilfork playing poorly. The whole defense was better in the second half, I still hold out hope for Beisel in his second year with the defense, Tedy next to him and, hopefully, Wilfork playing at a high level to start the season.
 
Never could figure Quotes, oh well. :bricks:

Thx agaian for your replyies DB, I'm really enjoying this board, all of you do a great job. ~S~m8s
 
BelichickFan, yup it is an outside chance, but I'm with you on opening day. !!

L8tr, ~S~
 
wrangler said:
BelichickFan, yup it is an outside chance, but I'm with you on opening day. !!
As uncertain as we are about Beisel, we would have to be equally uncertain about a draft choice . . .
 
Thanks for the nice post, Urgent.

I have a question about Inside Linebackers in the 3-4. Seems to me that one of the most important features in the transformation of our defense last season when Tedy Bruschi came back was his pass defense -- till then, we'd been getting killed by pass catching Tight Ends.

The season before, we'd been rotating Bruschi, Johnson, Phifer, with Phifer as the more coverage-oriented ILB. There's been a lot of discussion about the difficulty of replacing TJ but less about replacing Phifer. When Tedy came back, he referred to the way that his role at ILB was different from what it had been in previous seasons.

Does anyone have any views about the different roles the Pats have their ILBs take on and how they will be filled? Seems to me that, once one figures in the coverage duties, it becomes a lot more difficult to take some gifted but undersized pass-rushing D-Lineman and just turn him into a line-backer.
 
Wow, thanks for the feed back on this post. I was'nt sure how good of a question this was. I'm kinda burnt out on receiver talk. The linebacker draft/Vrabel inside or out issue is where my attention is drawn at this point.
 
My take...

Mike the Brit said:
Thanks for the nice post, Urgent.

I have a question about Inside Linebackers in the 3-4. Seems to me that one of the most important features in the transformation of our defense last season when Tedy Bruschi came back was his pass defense -- till then, we'd been getting killed by pass catching Tight Ends.

The season before, we'd been rotating Bruschi, Johnson, Phifer, with Phifer as the more coverage-oriented ILB. There's been a lot of discussion about the difficulty of replacing TJ but less about replacing Phifer. When Tedy came back, he referred to the way that his role at ILB was different from what it had been in previous seasons.

Does anyone have any views about the different roles the Pats have their ILBs take on and how they will be filled? Seems to me that, once one figures in the coverage duties, it becomes a lot more difficult to take some gifted but undersized pass-rushing D-Lineman and just turn him into a line-backer.


I consider Geenway's best position with the Pats as Inside coverage LB.( Rnd 1-2)

I consider Lawson and Wimberly OLB pass rushers. (Rnd 1-2)

I consider Bobby Carpenter a complete BB 3-4 ILB and OLB LB. That's why I think he is the first pick. (Rnd 1, even tradeup possible)

I consider AJ Hawk a better Carpenter (Rnd 1 tradeup)

Carpenter has sack totals that place him in the comapny of Vrabel & Lawson, He has instinctual diagnosis and coverage skills that match Phifer.

Greenway is much much more Phifer than anyone else on the Pats by comparison.

Havener I think projects as a coverage ILB too. (Rnd 3)

Kai Parham, and Schnegal rate as TJ type ILBs. They are the run stuffer types. (Rnd 4-6)

I guy that I think they take late, Chris Cocong will have a long transition but you'lll probably get a pretty good ILB in a few years out of him; meanwhile he is a STer. (Rnd late 3, 4-5)
 
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Mike the Brit said:
Thanks for the nice post, Urgent.

I have a question about Inside Linebackers in the 3-4. Seems to me that one of the most important features in the transformation of our defense last season when Tedy Bruschi came back was his pass defense -- till then, we'd been getting killed by pass catching Tight Ends.

The season before, we'd been rotating Bruschi, Johnson, Phifer, with Phifer as the more coverage-oriented ILB. There's been a lot of discussion about the difficulty of replacing TJ but less about replacing Phifer. When Tedy came back, he referred to the way that his role at ILB was different from what it had been in previous seasons.

Does anyone have any views about the different roles the Pats have their ILBs take on and how they will be filled? Seems to me that, once one figures in the coverage duties, it becomes a lot more difficult to take some gifted but undersized pass-rushing D-Lineman and just turn him into a line-backer.
There are four aspects of a Pats' ILB to consider: coverage, run stopping, play calling, field tactician. Bruschi became the standard for ILB with his ability to excell at all four; TJ was good or better at three; Phifer was decent or better at the physical, less so, but not incompetent for the mental.

We now have the Vrabel conversion underway, he's on track to surpass Tedy in all aspects. BB's challenge will be to weigh the merits of using Vrabel's mind more, by keeping him inside, or using him to replace Willie and putting someone else alongside Tedy.

Options:

TBC at ROLB: He's got the pass rush and run stopping tool set and he's done an apprenticeship. His coverage skills will need work, but he could be ready to replace Willie. Because of his perceived coverage limitations, I don't see him inside, but he should be adequate monitoring RBs in the flat and shallow zones like Willie did.

Claridge at ROLB: This hasn't gotten much consideration, but he's played both ILB and OLB in a 3-4. He is TBC's primary competition for starter if you leave Vrabel inside. Using him outside first allows him to adjust to the speed of the game with fewer demands on him. His rehab and his work with the training staff should have him in the 255-265 lb range he'll need. Like TBC, his primary coverage responsibility will be a RB in the flat or a shallow zone, a better match for his reported coverage skills.

Beisel at ROLB: If he gets back to his college weight, Monty is another candidate who has had success off the edge in college and might benefit from a slower development track.

Claridge and Beisel are currently the ILB depth with Alexander who has been struggling to get past the Practice Squad. Beisel was being used in more coverage roles late in the season, and may be in development for Phifer's old role. This would also give him more time to learn and improve, but he should weigh-in around 250-255 which is lighter then he played in college, but adequate for the OLB role if he was needed.

Given our current roster, TBC would seem to have the edge for ROLB, leaving Vrabel inside where his intelligence will do the most good. That would leave Beisel and Claridge as primary back-ups for 'both' ILB and OLB and allow BB/SP to view the draft for depth/STs/future potential.

Drafting from that premise, players like Manny Lawson, Chris Gocong, Mark Anderson, and Mike Kudla offer greater upside to players like Chad Greenway and Bobby Carpenter because they bring greater athletic talent and more experience with trench warfare to the field, comparable to Colvin, Bruschi, Vrabel, and McGinest. Gocong and Kudla also reportedly have the football smarts for an ILB transition - Lawson and Gocong both showed the nose for the ball (in their All -Star Games) that makes Bruschi and Vrabel so effective. As I've posted in the Draft forum, there are other players running into the late rounds who offer similar gifts, viewing the Pats LB corps from this premise also allows you to miss on these first day talents and still get someone like TBC or Claridge later.

Having been forced to think this through in this reply, I vote for keeping Vrabel and his field tactician capabilities inside where they will develop and cause opponents no end of frustration.

Of course there is another route we could take, Hochstein is a former High School LB, we could always draft additional O-linemen and convert him to TJ's run stuffer role.
 
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wrangler said:
Thx DB, yes ILB is a hard one. Last June(?) on the ESPN board I said Vrabel to ILB to fill for TB, go figure I got 1 right lol.

So, Vrabel stays inside and we get another OLB?

What about Beisel, I think he could be a starter inside. He showed discipline after a few games, get him to react not think, he could be ok.?
Probably the best way to judge Beisel is to look at the last game of last year in slo-mo where he got a significant number of reps - so that was after a whole season of coaching and Belichick practices and game reps.

He made one decent play. When Willie got sealed inside on an outside run around the offensive right side, Beisel slid over from his inside spot and made the tackle after a gain of 4 yards. Since there was no block to interfere with Beisel's movement, my suspicion is that Ted J or Tedy would have slid over and stopped the run for little gain or even a loss. Just my impression.

On the first play that Beisel was in he was late getting to a gang tackle on the defensive right side - but he threw his hands up in celebration.

On the couple times when a blocker got into the backfield and took on Beisel, he was basically blocked back 5 yards out of the play and just stopped without even trying to shed off of the block and head toward the runner..

On one play on a run around the left side of the O-line, Beisel got to the runner as Colvin hooked around behind the end and caught the runner by the foot. As the runner is stretching out to get an extra yard, Beisel actually stands up straight and HOPS behind the runner in order to avoid contact. I've never seen anything so ridiculous even in Pop Warner football.

On one play where Beisel moved on the snap up behind Wilfork, the runner hit the gap right beside Wilfork. Beisel not only did not ram sideways and tackle, he just stood there as the runner went thru the gap and was finally brought down after a couple yards. Beisel never even tried to tackle the runner at any time.

On a goal line stand, the runner hit the line just to the right side of Beisel. Not only didn't he ram over to hit the runner (he had a chancer to force the guy sideways short of the goal line), he actually moved parallel to the runner while the runner crossed the goal line. I've never seen anything so stupid in my life. There was another play almost exactly the same in the middle of the field on another drive.

I slo-mo'd all of his plays in that game and other than the one tackle I mentioned first, he was an absolute bust as far as any contribution.

I can't imagine, after a season of coaching and practices, that if he was so fundamentally opposite to what a linebacker is all about (much less a Belichick one), that any additional amount of time could ever get him even close to being even a marginal linebacker.
 
Yeah, he did'nt show me much. And i was in his corner so to speak. High hopes never came to fruition.
 
arrellbee said:
Probably the best way to judge Beisel is to look at the last game of last year in slo-mo where he got a significant number of reps - so that was after a whole season of coaching and Belichick practices and game reps.
Arrellbee, is that the Miami game you're looking at?
 
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