Kraft regrets giving Belichick so much power without “checks and balances” in place.

[condon84]

Hey, you're the one who can't differentiate between "Schottenheimer did better in Cleveland" and "Schottenheimer is the better coach".

You're so ******ed that you see the above 2 statements as identical so maybe you should throttle back on calling others "stupid".

Stop playing stupid and you won't be called stupid.

 

[sb1]

It was a rebuild. They couldn't go out and get people though because of the cap. For the first time ever, Belichick talked about the fact that the team org was not able to address the quality of play on the field because they were strapped. I can't even understand what you're arguing here: you thought Belichick believed they would compete for the playoffs or more with that team? Really? Signing your starting QB in July for $1m is basically everything you need to know about the "plans" for that year.

That's not a rebuild. Franchising Joe Thuney and keeping Gilmore are the exact opposite of what I would expect a team to do in a rebuild. Those are things a team does that expects to compete. What Bill said to the media were excuses in light of what Brady was doing in Tampa and nothing more than that.

The Patriots knew the old players were on their way out (Hightower and some others didn't even play!) while deciding to take the cap hit in '20 so that they could make a big splash in FA in '21 because they knew teams would be well over the cap due to the Covid revenue implosion.

This was the obvious plan.

Then it sounds like you believe 2020 was a transition year where the team would take a small step back before attempting to compete in 2021. I can agree with that but that has nothing in common with a rebuild.

Also a rebuilding team had no reason to play Cam Newton the last two games of the season. I was no fan of Stidham and wanted him gone but playing Stid the last two games of the season would have been another signal that they were a rebuilding team continuing to evaluate what they had both in Stid and other players regardless of the outcome. That's what rebuilding teams do. Instead it seems Bill wanted the W's. He was competing, no question about it.

As for the last part, we've been over that. It's well known we disagree.

Even Kraft said Bill was in charge. There's nothing further to debate here unless Bill wasn't really the GM.

 

[XLIX]

Not applicable. I'm not the one who refuses to acknowledge history.

No, you’re just an idiot who think 1 WC win in 5 years + a media prediction = Super Bowl contenders.

You’ve completely humiliated yourself but refuse to admit you were wrong.

Dozens of teams have made the SB after reaching the divisionals the previous year. Look it up.

Absolutely dozens of teams have done such a thing.

Cleveland did not even remotely come close.

 

[XLIX]

Stop playing stupid and you won't be called stupid.

When a ******ed person like you calls me stupid, then I know I’m doing something right.

 

[RobertWeathers]

No, you’re just an idiot who think 1 WC win in 5 years + a media prediction = Super Bowl contenders.

You’ve completely humiliated yourself but refuse to admit you were wrong.

You calling me an idiot....thats rich. Coming from someone who is completely clueless and dense.

You said no one predicted CLE could go to the SB in the 95 preseason. You were wrong and I proved it. You clearly have an issue with being wrong.

Absolutely dozens of teams have done such a thing.

Cleveland did not even remotely come close.

Sure they did. They were a playoff team with a #1 defense and an improved roster with their owner undermining them every step of the way.

 

[upstater1]

That's not a rebuild. Franchising Joe Thuney and keeping Gilmore are the exact opposite of what I would expect a team to do in a rebuild. Those are things a team does that expects to compete. What Bill said to the media were excuses in light of what Brady was doing in Tampa and nothing more than that.

Then it sounds like you believe 2020 was a transition year where the team would take a small step back before attempting to compete in 2021. I can agree with that but that has nothing in common with a rebuild.

Also a rebuilding team had no reason to play Cam Newton the last two games of the season. I was no fan of Stidham and wanted him gone but playing Stid the last two games of the season would have been another signal that they were a rebuilding team continuing to evaluate what they had both in Stid and other players regardless of the outcome. That's what rebuilding teams do. Instead it seems Bill wanted the W's. He was competing, no question about it.


Even Kraft said Bill was in charge. There's nothing further to debate here unless Bill wasn't really the GM.

I think you don't understand what a rebuild is.

A rebuild is when you know the era is done with your former players because they've left or are too old. So you make plans abput the next era.

That's what 2020 was. It doesn't necessarily mean you immediately go out and get new players.

As for the last part about what Kraft said, he actually said the opposite of what you claim he said. He said from now on Bill would have to collaborate. The funny thing about this is that Kraft alluded to Caserio's approach and departure as part of the change being made. Caserio was Belichick's yes man. Meanwhile they lost to Caserio's team last week.

You do realize that after Caserio left that Ziegler and Eliot Wolf took over the scouting. Do you think it was Belichick who took over scouting Mac Jones and Justin Fields. According to a MMQB column by Albert Breer, it was Eliot Wolf. Josh McDaniels was with Wolf doing that evaluation. Mike Reiss the next week corroborated Breer's column that Kraft had made changes and that Belichick would no longer be the one constructing the draft board as he had done in the past. This was from them having several bad drafts in the 5 years prior, so they made changes. Breer said the scouts would report their analysis to a combination of the personnel guys, Belichick and other coaches. You can bet this mostly meant McDaniels. But the personnel guys were Wolf and Ziegler. Prior to that, everything was just the Belichick and Caserio show.

I would say this collaborative approach HELPED the Patriots and Belichick since the team has drafted better the last 4 years (until this year) than it did the prior 5 years.

Collaboration was a good thing.

But Belichick and Caserio had other goals in mind the prior 5 years. It wasn't a rebuild back then.

 

[sb1]

I think you don't understand what a rebuild is.

A rebuild is when you know the era is done with your former players because they've left or are too old. So you make plans abput the next era.

A rebuild is what the name suggests it is. You're rebuilding the roster and everything else about the team - not to win right now or next year but create a foundation that can win in the long term. That didn't happen in 2020.

That's what 2020 was. It doesn't necessarily mean you immediately go out and get new players.

Of course it does. Otherwise what are you rebuilding? Franchising Thuney and keeping Gilmore are signs you want to compete right now. Bill wanted to compete right now.

As for the last part about what Kraft said, he actually said the opposite of what you claim he said. He said from now on Bill would have to collaborate. The funny thing about this is that Kraft alluded to Caserio's approach and departure as part of the change being made. Caserio was Belichick's yes man. Meanwhile they lost to Caserio's team last week.

You do realize that after Caserio left that Ziegler and Eliot Wolf took over the scouting. Do you think it was Belichick who took over scouting Mac Jones and Justin Fields. According to a MMQB column by Albert Breer, it was Eliot Wolf. Josh McDaniels was with Wolf doing that evaluation. Mike Reiss the next week corroborated Breer's column that Kraft had made changes and that Belichick would no longer be the one constructing the draft board as he had done in the past. This was from them having several bad drafts in the 5 years prior, so they made changes. Breer said the scouts would report their analysis to a combination of the personnel guys, Belichick and other coaches. You can bet this mostly meant McDaniels. But the personnel guys were Wolf and Ziegler. Prior to that, everything was just the Belichick and Caserio show.

I would say this collaborative approach HELPED the Patriots and Belichick since the team has drafted better the last 4 years (until this year) than it did the prior 5 years.

I understand all of that but Belichick was still the GM. He was not fired from that position until this past January. I explained this before. "Collaboration" can make any recommendation they want to the GM. If the GM accepts their recommendation, all the responsibility for success or failure is on him and him only. Not anyone else. Bill picked Mac Jones, Mac Jones flamed out so that is Bill's failure not the collaborations. Like I said it's a strange hill to die on, it's not like it was a bad pick at the time.

Let's be real, this is all about pointing fingers at anyone but Bill. Bill can do no wrong, it's always someone else's fault when things go sideways. To that here is Bill's quote: "If it doesn't work out then blame me". Funny that he didn't say blame some collaboration....

 

[condon84]

When a ******ed person like you calls me stupid, then I know I’m doing something right.

I'm not the only one calling you dumb in this thread. Dumb things dumb people do. So you are doing something right.

 

[signbabybrady]

 

[festy1986]

Dumpster fire thread.

For those of you who are wondering. It was exactly like this even when we were winning Superbowls.

Nothing's changed.

 

[XLIX]

I'm not the only one calling you dumb in this thread. Dumb things dumb people do. So you are doing something right.

Yeah but you're the only one who, unlike the typical first grader, doesn't know the difference between "your" and "you're". So maybe slow your roll a bit on questioning the intellect of others until you graduate to the 2nd grade.

Dumb things dumb people do.

 

[XLIX]

"It's not fair to blame Belichick for 2020. That was a rebuilding year."
"It's not fair to blame Belichick for 2021. That was a rebuilding year."
"It's not fair to blame Belichick for 2022. That was a rebuilding year."
"It's not fair to blame Belichick for 2023. That was a rebuilding year."

 

[condon84]

Yeah but you're the only one who, unlike the typical first grader, doesn't know the difference between "your" and "you're". So maybe slow your roll a bit on questioning the intellect of others until you graduate to the 2nd grade.

You've already proven yourself dumb all throughout the thread. Everyone sees it. But keep going.

 

[XLIX]

You've already proven yourself dumb all throughout the thread. Everyone sees it. But keep going.

The ultimate irony is the thing that I said which triggered you so badly not only is 100% accurate, but even you haven't disagreed with the statement.

“Belichick got outperformed by Marty Schottenheimer in Cleveland. And not just by a little - by a LOT.” - me

All you did was grossly misrepresent the above statement and then attack me for something I neither said nor implied. Only a complete moron looks at a 5 year slice of each coach's 20+ year career and interprets "Schottenheimer is overall a better coach than Belichick."

The problem is your tiny brain can't comprehend that both statements can be true: (A) Schottenheimer did better than Belichick in Cleveland and (B) Belichick is the better coach

You know my statement is 100% correct, even though you could never aspire to be man enough to admit it. Now, since you keep responding because you can't help yourself - but at the same time are adding absolutely nothing to the conversation - I give you permission to please go ahead and have the last word your childlike mind demands you have.

 

[upstater1]

A rebuild is what the name suggests it is. You're rebuilding the roster and everything else about the team - not to win right now or next year but create a foundation that can win in the long term. That didn't happen in 2020.

Of course it does. Otherwise what are you rebuilding? Franchising Thuney and keeping Gilmore are signs you want to compete right now. Bill wanted to compete right now.

I understand all of that but Belichick was still the GM. He was not fired from that position until this past January. I explained this before. "Collaboration" can make any recommendation they want to the GM. If the GM accepts their recommendation, all the responsibility for success or failure is on him and him only. Not anyone else. Bill picked Mac Jones, Mac Jones flamed out so that is Bill's failure not the collaborations. Like I said it's a strange hill to die on, it's not like it was a bad pick at the time.

Let's be real, this is all about pointing fingers at anyone but Bill. Bill can do no wrong, it's always someone else's fault when things go sideways. To that here is Bill's quote: "If it doesn't work out then blame me". Funny that he didn't say blame some collaboration....

What are we arguing here?

This is crazy to think that 2020 was a normal year when the entire team told you the exact opposite. Before the year, Belichick was not more forthcoming. The freaking QB didn't join the team until July!!! What more evidence do you need. The fact that they ddin't add players and were hamstrung is irrelevant. It was a year in which they knew the previous period was over.

It should be obvious that salary and management issues are part of any rebuilding process. It's not only about players. But managing your entire situation so that you know you're taking losses now for a better future, that's part of a rebuild, that's what they did. Are you saying salary cap management has nothing to do with rebuilding?

About the collaboration stuff, Kraft explicitly said they were breaking from the past and doing things differently. That was explicit. You and I would never know the changes, but Albert Breer and Mike Reiss laid them out. It wasnt going to be Caserio and Belichick an more. Now, we don't know what actually happened and never will, but Callahan wrote 3 articles that there was some dissension on personnel.

If you want me to believe that Belichick preferred a 1st down machine like Jakobi Meyers over a metrics guy like JuJu, then yes I will admit to being VERY willing to believe that long before the Callahan article came out. Callahan reinforced my suspicions anyway knowing that Belichick has always valued the David Givens, Deion Branch, Brandon Lloyd, Mitchells of this world over people like Brandin Cooks and JuJu.

 

[condon84]

The ultimate irony is the thing that I said which triggered you so badly not only is 100% accurate, but even you haven't disagreed with the statement.

“Belichick got outperformed by Marty Schottenheimer in Cleveland. And not just by a little - by a LOT.” - me

All you did was grossly misrepresent the above statement and then attack me for something I neither said nor implied. Only a complete moron looks at a 5 year slice of each coach's 20+ year career and interprets "Schottenheimer is overall a better coach than Belichick."

You know my statement is 100% correct, even though you could never aspire to be man enough to admit it. Now, since you keep responding because you can't help yourself - but at the same time are adding absolutely nothing to the conversation - I give you permission to please go ahead and have the last word your childlike mind demands you have.

I never said anything you posted was incorrect. Simply stating that it's bizarre a Patriots fan on a Pats message board would go hard in the paint with those statistics showing Schotty being more successful. Now you can play dumb and say you never said Schotty was a better HC, but we all know what you were implying with that argument. So go ahead and keep playing dumb or just be you being your dumbass self.

 

[Kasmir]

They paid Cam $1m!!!

They didn't sign any FAs because they had no money!

Belichick was completely open about what was going on. It's not any secret.

You call normal planning arrogance and it shows how entitled Patriots fans are that the team spent everything it had to go to 5 Super Bowls with that second dynasty era Patriots team and in the end they were left with vapor, as if Belichick was unaware that the team had suffered a severe talented depletion and also killed their cap!?!?

We all know what the plan was. They stuffed all the bad contracts into 2020. It was obvious. Look at the cap hits.

The idea that he thought he was going to return to glory with Cam Newton was preposterous.

Let me show you how crazy this is: Newton signed with the Patriots in early July!!

Not even before OTAs and minicamp.

Huh? I never made such claims. Cam was clearly a last ditch reclamation project, Bill no doubt thought Brady would extend his contract in 2020.

The arrogance started with his toying with the idea of replacing Brady with Garoppolo and went into full gear with his hiring of friends and family and family of friends. And the 2022 coaching assignments he handed out he made showed overweening arrogance.

Bill has a brilliant football mind that applied to all aspects of building and running a first class football franchise. But with success he just got too full of himself and by arrogantly pursuing his cronyism and nepotism he destroyed his team.

 

[upstater1]

Huh? I never made such claims. Cam was clearly a last ditch reclamation project, Bill no doubt thought Brady would extend his contract in 2020.

The arrogance started with his toying with the idea of replacing Brady with Garoppolo and went into full gear with his hiring of friends and family and family of friends. And the 2022 coaching assignments he handed out he made showed overweening arrogance.

Bill has a brilliant football mind that applied to all aspects of building and running a first class football franchise. But with success he just got too full of himself and by arrogantly pursuing his cronyism and nepotism he destroyed his team.

If you're not drafting a QB to replace your 38 year old QB, you're committing malpractice.

Steve Young was brought in when Joe Montana was 31. Aaron Rodgers was brought in when Brett Favre was 34.

It would have been insane for a GM not to draft a QB to replace -- eventually -- his 38 year old QB.

The fact that Kraft interpreted this as some sort of nefarious plan just shows how incompetent Kraft is.

BTW -- the idea that the Brady decision was made after the 2019 season is curious, especially when you realize that Brady was all set to join the Dolphins before the 2019 season even started, and that was all foiled by Brian Flores. Nevertheless, Brady did want to join our arch-enemy WHILE he was still the Patriots QB.

His petulance during the 2019 season can be seen in a new light, after that bit of information came out.

 

[XLIX]

Bill has a brilliant football mind that applied to all aspects of building and running a first class football franchise. But with success he just got too full of himself and by arrogantly pursuing his cronyism and nepotism he destroyed his team.

+1.

He got way too full of himself and foolishly thought he could win - or at the very least compete - no matter who was under center.

 

[sb1]

+1.

He got way too full of himself and foolishly thought he could win - or at the very least compete - no matter who was under center.

And apparently no matter who his offensive coaches were....