Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?

[Triumph]

If they truely had damning video, we’d be YouTubing it already

I will just wait for TMZ like you.

 

[Soliel]

Assuming you’re saying “embarrasses us all” here and to that I say, really? It doesn’t embarrass me in the slightest. As a fan of the team I’m in no way responsible for the stupid crap the owner does and quite frankly his handling of spygate and deflate gate pissed me off far worse than this.

It’s bad for the Kraft image but I don’t see it as a reflection of the team. And I agree, the spygate thing was more embarrassing.

In fact, if he had not eluded the teams security ( B.B. directed) this all could have been avoided. Now, how is it that Gordon messed up in Florida and now kraft? Law of averages is not in favor

 

[TomPatriot]

Consensual sex costs $59?

Ok, less than consensual sex. A back rub.

 

[Soliel]

I will just wait for TMZ like you.

Yep. What else can we do? I know they use little restraint to none. Look at that Smollett case. Fake news spreads like cancer

 

[TomPatriot]

It wasn't consensual . A sex trafficking ring was broken up where women are forced to work at these places

That’s what the news reports say that the police say. We’ll see.

 

[Simpelton]

Thee's a paperwork trail surely and the testimony of the women who were for all intents and purposes held captive.

The paperwork trail for a criminal operation isn't usually all that comprehensive, and a lot of the information that is there isn't reliable. Just for a stupidly obvious example, veteran operators of illegal operations very rarely use their actual name on the paperwork, and many have fake SSNs as well. If you're lucky you might get banking information for a handful of sub-accounts that don't have anywhere near all the operators' money in them, and a Rolodex full of aliases, if you're unlucky, you get an operator who knows how to flush the books and you get nothing. It really is best if you can get your investigation to a point where the police are their own witnesses if possible.

Furthermore victim testimony isn't all that dependable. Stockholm syndrome aside (not that that isn't a HUGE problem in situations like this) -- read what I said in the post you quoted about figuring out who the victims are and who the criminals are. This is frequently far from a cut-and-dried question with victims forced to victimize other victims and scumbags claiming retroatively to have been victims. A period of observation really helps to disambiguate those issues and move a case out of he-said she-said territory, allowing the police and DA to prosecute those who should be prosecuted and spare those who were genuinely under duress.

If they were underage, you bet the cops would have kicked the doors open and put a stop to it almost immediately.

You'd be surprised. With underage trafficking it's even more important to bring down the kingpins and the people making money off of this. But it is true that if there's a chance to save an underage victim a police force will often devote more resources to the investigation so they can break things off safely as quickly as possible.

 

[TB_Helmet]

Its embarrassing.

My truck has Pats stuff all over it. Some guy in another car rolled his window down and asked me where he could get a massage. Before, I used to get the finger when they saw me on the road.

Sorry that happened to you Triumph. Although, it is pretty funny.

 

[TB_Helmet]

80 pages of drivel about consensual sex.

Are you serious?

 

[luuked]

Not sure if it was posted but, Here Ya Go!

View attachment 22666

How much is he willing to pay to get some release ?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

It wasn't consensual . A sex trafficking ring was broken up where women are forced to work at these places

Your take may not be wrong, but let’s consider the consequences here. Legally (and many would argue that morally as well), the law is built on the concept of foreseeable risks. In other words, if you walk into a run and tug parlor, a reasonable person would be taking a risk that s/he is engaging in illegal prostitution, but a reasonable person would not likely (and the actual charge against Kraft speaks to this) know they are also engaging in, supporting, or committing a higher crime involving human trafficking.

Kind of like this: you live in Miami in 1990. You know that cocaine is illegal but decide to buy some from a Colombian dealer in the area. It is well known that Pablo Escobar runs the drug trade and operates a murderous cartel that is responsible for the deaths of many Columbians. You could probably make the connection that you are in fact directly involved in a business transaction with Pablo Escobar. If you get caught with cocaine, should you be implicated in helping the Medellin Cartel and be responsible for thousands of gang related deaths and political assassinations, or should you just be charged with illegally buying a bag of cocaine?

When people buy illegal substances or illegal services, there is almost always some dark strings attached to it because they are available in a dark underworld of crime. This is a consequence of making these things illegal to begin with.

 

[luuked]

It wasn't consensual . A sex trafficking ring was broken up where women are forced to work at these places

While I agree on the big picture on it none of this is relevant for Kraft unless you think he was part of the trafficking organization or there is some clear evidence he was aware that all of this was happening against the wills of the individuals.

So from Krafts perspective -- and the charges brought up so far reflect that -- it was more or less consensual sex against money which is more or less pretty embarrassing but most probably not more than that.

 

[Triumph]

Sorry that happened to you Triumph. Although, it is pretty funny.

Thanks TB

It does not bother me in the least.

 

[ohiopatsfan]

This is really a very sad and disturbing story from all aspects. Robert Kraft is one of the last people I would consider being involved in something like this. His recent loaning of the Lombardi Trophy for a post-Duck Boat parade at an assisted living facility in my old home town of Winthrop is just one example of his philanthropy. That said, if the allegations are true, there is no excuse for his actions. With the current "me-too" environment, punishment may be more severe than it might have been years earlier, but there will be consequences for these alleged acts. I feel, after the state of Florida completes its investigation and metes out its punishment, the NFL, based on past history, will impose a fine and suspension on Mr. Kraft. The Patriots haters screaming for all the 2019 draft picks to be taken away look at this as a means to finally break the team's hold on the Super Bowl. I hope Goodell doesn't give them credence and tamper with the team's draft choices. A move like that would reignite the talk of NFL bias that most Patriots' fans feel is already in existence. Events like this massage parlor fiasco turn over rocks and expose terrible things we know exist but would rather not think about.

 

[Soliel]

This is really a very sad and disturbing story from all aspects. Robert Kraft is one of the last people I would consider being involved in something like this. His recent loaning of the Lombardi Trophy for a post-Duck Boat parade at an assisted living facility in my old home town of Winthrop is just one example of his philanthropy. That said, if the allegations are true, there is no excuse for his actions. With the current "me-too" environment, punishment may be more severe than it might have been years earlier, but there will be consequences for these alleged acts. I feel, after the state of Florida completes its investigation and metes out its punishment, the NFL, based on past history, will impose a fine and suspension on Mr. Kraft. The Patriots haters screaming for all the 2019 draft picks to be taken away look at this as a means to finally break the team's hold on the Super Bowl. I hope Goodell doesn't give them credence and tamper with the team's draft choices. A move like that would reignite the talk of NFL bias that most Patriots' fans feel is already in existence. Events like this massage parlor fiasco turn over rocks and expose terrible things we know exist but would rather not think about.

Under that section VIII, it makes it hard for me to see the league taking draft picks. Oh ****, I forgot. Goodell kinda does whatever he chooses. We’re screwed

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Your wrong. Kraft only started this pattern of behavior after butlers benching

And all the John's knew this how?

 

[italian pat patriot]

I do not see reason at all to mention draft picks on this matter...

 

[Triumph]

While I agree on the big picture on it none of this is relevant for Kraft unless you think he was part of the trafficking organization or there is some clear evidence he was aware that all of this was happening against the wills of the individuals.

So from Krafts perspective -- and the charges brought up so far reflect that -- it was more or less consensual sex against money which is more or less pretty embarrassing but most probably not more than that.

So what happens when they ask the women if they wanted to stay at Orchid as a prostitute and they reply no?

Its not consensual then. Its only consensual with the owners of the massage parlor.

 

[Soliel]

And all the John's knew this how?

They watched the game too

 

[Tony2046]

I see the “creepy” thread from last night got deleted. One of the strangest things I’ve ever seen on here.

That was just bizarre and creepy.

 

[Triumph]

That was just bizarre and creepy.

Damn I missed it.