Jeff Thomas

2020 Patriots Season:
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Oct 25th

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Zuma

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I understand where you coming from but I think that @mgteich is right that the math will just not work out.

How many snaps and targets do you think a WR4 will get given our RB group and additions at TE ? How often do you think we will come out with 4-5 WR ?

Practically any niche player on defense or specialist on ST will be more valuable than WR5/6. That is unless we suffer multiple serious injuries at WR but that is a different story.

Below is my math...I have 7. I have real concerns about Edelman's age (34) and injuries. If he is unable to get on the field then we have serious issues. If that happens then...

WR1 Harry
WR2 Byrd / Thomas (speedster to pull CB's downfield)
WR3 Sanu (slot)
WR4 Meyers (backup WR1, WR2, slot)
WR5 Hastings (slot)

QB (2) J.Stidham, B.Hoyer (no 3rd QB on the 53...the other 2 go to PS)
RB (6) S.Michel, J.White, R.Burkhead, D.Harris, D.Vitale, J.Johnson (love Bolden but no room)
WR (7) J.Edelman, N.Harry, M.Sanu, J.Meyers, D.Byrd, W.Hastings, M.Slater (7 including Slater...yep)
TE (2) D.Asiasi, D.Keene (only 2 which is 2 more then last season. Vitale will help out here)
C (2) D.Andrews, D.Woodard (Andrews is back, no Ferenze)
G (4) S.Mason, J.Thuney, H.Froholdt, M.Onwenu (Jermaine didn't make it)
T (4) I.Wynn, M.Cannon, Y.Cajuste, K.Cunningham (Herron to PS)
DE (3) J.Simon, D.Wise, A.Jennings (IMO they need Wise this season as he is the only traditional DE here)
DT (3) L.Guy, A.Butler, B.Allen (Allen makes it, Cowart doesn't, Murray to PS. my hope is Onwenu also has snaps here)
ILB(3) D.Hightower, J.Bentley, C.Maluia (Cassh makes it)
OLB(4) C.Winovich, J.Uche, B.Copeland, B.King (Rivers, Calhoun don't make the cut)
CB (6) S.Gilmore, J.McCourty, J.Jones, J.Jackson, J.Williams, J.Bethel
SS (2) P.Chung, K.Dugger (Brooks didn't make it, Williams will take snaps here)
FS (2) D.McCourty, A.Phillips
ST (3) J.Rohrwasser, J.Bailey, J.Cardona
Total players: 53

Created with Pats Picker: Pats Picker 2020
 

luuked

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I think in today's NFL you need more receivers.

What does that even mean ?

We have an offense that likes to be as flexible as possible so the times you will see us spread it out with 5 WRs will be minimal because you give away your intentions.

If history is any indication we will have 2-3 WR most of the time with the remaining spots being filled by a mix of RBs, FBs and TEs.

You are overestimating the number of snaps and targets any WR5+ will get in games as well as in practice.

As we have seen with this team Running back has been easier to plug and play than finding decent receivers.

We have this dance every year. Odds are that most -- if not all -- of the UDFA WRs some are obsessing over will be useless and forgotten in a year. Personally, I hope Thomas can make the roster but I realize how much of a longshot that is.
 

luuked

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Below is my math...I have 7. I have real concerns about Edelman's age (34) and injuries. If he is unable to get on the field then we have serious issues. If that happens then...

WR1 Harry
WR2 Byrd / Thomas (speedster to pull CB's downfield)
WR3 Sanu (slot)
WR4 Meyers (backup WR1, WR2, slot)
WR5 Hastings (slot)

QB (2) J.Stidham, B.Hoyer (no 3rd QB on the 53...the other 2 go to PS)
RB (6) S.Michel, J.White, R.Burkhead, D.Harris, D.Vitale, J.Johnson (love Bolden but no room)
WR (7) J.Edelman, N.Harry, M.Sanu, J.Meyers, D.Byrd, W.Hastings, M.Slater (7 including Slater...yep)
TE (2) D.Asiasi, D.Keene (only 2 which is 2 more then last season. Vitale will help out here)
C (2) D.Andrews, D.Woodard (Andrews is back, no Ferenze)
G (4) S.Mason, J.Thuney, H.Froholdt, M.Onwenu (Jermaine didn't make it)
T (4) I.Wynn, M.Cannon, Y.Cajuste, K.Cunningham (Herron to PS)
DE (3) J.Simon, D.Wise, A.Jennings (IMO they need Wise this season as he is the only traditional DE here)
DT (3) L.Guy, A.Butler, B.Allen (Allen makes it, Cowart doesn't, Murray to PS. my hope is Onwenu also has snaps here)
ILB(3) D.Hightower, J.Bentley, C.Maluia (Cassh makes it)
OLB(4) C.Winovich, J.Uche, B.Copeland, B.King (Rivers, Calhoun don't make the cut)
CB (6) S.Gilmore, J.McCourty, J.Jones, J.Jackson, J.Williams, J.Bethel
SS (2) P.Chung, K.Dugger (Brooks didn't make it, Williams will take snaps here)
FS (2) D.McCourty, A.Phillips
ST (3) J.Rohrwasser, J.Bailey, J.Cardona
Total players: 53

Created with Pats Picker: Pats Picker 2020

Love the detailed answer.

That being said I'd rather have Cowart, Calhoun, Bolden.. hell even a healthy LaCosse over a WR6.

Personally, I think Woodard will end up on the PS and Jakob Johnson will not make the roster which gives you some additional room.

Either way.. thanks for the comprehensive POV.
 

Zuma

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We have this dance every year. Odds are that most -- if not all -- of the UDFA WRs some are obsessing over will be useless and forgotten in a year. Personally, I hope Thomas can make the roster but I realize how much of a longshot that is.

So this is what I touched on earlier. Tom throws to a UDFA rook, rook drops ball, rook never sees a football ever again. Jarrett throws to UDFA rook, rook drops ball, Jarrett throws to rook again. Those WR's have a better chance making the team in 2020 then in recent years.
 

luuked

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So this is what I touched on earlier. Tom throws to a UDFA rook, rook drops ball, rook never sees a football ever again. Jarrett throws to UDFA rook, rook drops ball, Jarrett throws to rook again. Those WR's have a better chance making the team in 2020 then in recent years.

I don't see how this is relevant. Yes whoever will make the team might have a chance at a higher number of targets than in the Brady era but there are still only five spots on offense that you can fill.

And to make deciphering defenses easier for Stidham you can be sure that McD will use all his trickery pre-snap. Part of that will be not giving away the pass/run just via personnel early.

Just because Stidham might keep throwing to Meyers/Thomas/Byrd or Lee doesn't mean they have a better chance to make the roster. One of them will and he will get his chances.
 

Zuma

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I don't see how this is relevant.
You said the UDFA's...most or all will be forgotten in a year. My point is that I don't think that will be the case with Jarrett because he will throw to those guys more often in camp and pre-season. I believe building that chemistry will only help those UDFA players get a better chance at making the 53 then in recent years. So I do think it's relevant.
 
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mgteich

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Below is my math...I have 7. I have real concerns about Edelman's age (34) and injuries. If he is unable to get on the field then we have serious issues. If that happens then...

WR1 Harry
WR2 Byrd / Thomas (speedster to pull CB's downfield)
WR3 Sanu (slot)
WR4 Meyers (backup WR1, WR2, slot)
WR5 Hastings (slot)
.

So, you presume an injury to our #1 WR. Well, in that case trade him for a 6th.

Even in the situation you mention, Hastings is unnecessary and wouldn't be active. Meyers backs ups up all 3 WR spots. Edelman is the primary reason that I am OK with the 5th WR. You have well demonstrated how we have starters and backups without him (and without Hastings). In any given game, we really only NEED 3 WR's. Obviously, a backup is a good idea. But, even if there is a 2nd injury during a game, the top 3 are plenty. If there are continuing injuries to 2 WR's, then we might need to acquire a WR from the PS or from another team.

We need 3 WR's. Even with 2 injuries, we are fine with a 5 WR squad. And yes, even if only 2 WR's are healthy, we have TE's and RB's who can be receivers.
 

Zuma

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So, you presume an injury to our #1 WR. Well, in that case trade him for a 6th.

Even in the situation you mention, Hastings is unnecessary and wouldn't be active. Meyers backs ups up all 3 WR spots. Edelman is the primary reason that I am OK with the 5th WR. You have well demonstrated how we have starters and backups without him (and without Hastings). In any given game, we really only NEED 3 WR's. Obviously, a backup is a good idea. But, even if there is a 2nd injury during a game, the top 3 are plenty. If there are continuing injuries to 2 WR's, then we might need to acquire a WR from the PS or from another team.

We need 3 WR's. Even with 2 injuries, we are fine with a 5 WR squad. And yes, even if only 2 WR's are healthy, we have TE's and RB's who can be receivers.

I didn't say I presume Edelman will get injured...quote "I have real concerns about Edelman's age (34) and injuries". Nothing wrong with having a backup plan. Hastings? He would be the 5th WR if Edelman gets hurt and you are correct...he will not see a lot of opportunities on offense. He may end up with 10 receptions all season...and he could also be valuable on special teams. I like ST players that contribute on offense or defense.

You need WR's that are burners to spread the field that you won't get with TE's or RB's.
 
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ChrisR2223

Pro Bowl Player
So this is what I touched on earlier. Tom throws to a UDFA rook, rook drops ball, rook never sees a football ever again. Jarrett throws to UDFA rook, rook drops ball, Jarrett throws to rook again. Those WR's have a better chance making the team in 2020 then in recent years.
I’ve been saying this all offseason
Meyers and Harry are happy to see Tom go but will never publicly hint or say that
 

mgteich

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I didn't say I presume Edelman will get injured...quote "I have real concerns about Edelman's age (34) and injuries". Nothing wrong with having a backup plan. Hastings? He would be the 5th WR if Edelman gets hurt and you are correct...he will not see a lot of opportunities on offense. He may end up with 10 receptions all season...and he could also be valuable on special teams. I like ST players that contribute on offense or defense.

You need WR's that are burners to spread the field that you won't get with TE's or RB's.
Ok, so you would cut one of top STers. Who do you think that hastings can equal in ST contributions. Will his 10 receptions really make up for losing a STer?
 

Zuma

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Ok, so you would cut one of top STers. Who do you think that hastings can equal in ST contributions. Will his 10 receptions really make up for losing a STer?

I posted my 53 in the roster thread and above. Hastings real slot contributions will happen after 2020 IMO....if he makes the cut this year.
 

luuked

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You said the UDFA's...most or all will be forgotten in a year. My point is that I don't think that will be the case with Jarrett because he will throw to those guys more often in camp and pre-season. I believe building that chemistry will only help those UDFA players get a better chance at making the 53 then in recent years. So I do think it's relevant.

I said "odds are that they will be useless and forgotten". Just because we have an amazing run of getting UDFA on the roster for a couple of years doesn't mean any of that should be expected. Especially in a shortened and limited offseason/preseason.

Again I get your point about Stidham being maybe less opinionated about who the ball goes to. And it might be true.

But that doesn't change the basic math which is centered around the fact that there are only 5 spots for skill players and the ball can only go to one. So a WR5 or WR6 that get one digit snaps on average are less valuable than defensive or ST players who get the same amount of snaps just by the nature of the position and how they can affect plays.

Finally, if you argument revolves around Edelman maybe not being healthy enough to make it through the season then maybe the solution to that is not adding more depth but doing something with Edelman.
 

betterthanthealternative

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This thread happens every year. Do other teams' fans get this invested in if/who the #5 receiver is/might be?

For me, it isn't about how many, but about having a tiny bit of hope that one or more of the highly athletic newbies will shine enough to replace Sanu this year, and another one replace Edelman next year (I want him to retire while he still has a chance at brain health). Just because it would be nice to have someone like Thomas become a star, given what it would mean to the offense.

That's possible if one is kept as the #5 while he learns, and then bursts onto the scene sometime during the season.

I know this very rarely happens, if at all. The likelihood is not relevant to me right now. It's June and the highlight of my week is going to be getting a highly overdue haircut.
 

scott99

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I posted my 53 in the roster thread and above. Hastings real slot contributions will happen after 2020 IMO....if he makes the cut this year.
My one concern about Hastings is the knee(s?). Didn't he have multiple knee surgeries already ? It's like Malcolm Mitchell, I truly feel he would've become an excellent Pat's receiver, but because of his knees, he only played one season. But came up big in the SB.
 

mgteich

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I posted my 53 in the roster thread and above. Hastings real slot contributions will happen after 2020 IMO....if he makes the cut this year.

I understand that you have posted your 53.

OFFENSE (27 is too many; I have 25)
1) As I have said before, you have an extra OL (9 is plenty). Woodard has little chance to make the 53, given that Froholdt can be a starting center, as was clear when he was drafted.
2) I think that Bolden will make the team; Belichick made the mistake of cutting him once. I think that he makes the team instead of Jakob.
3) I see no reason for 6 WR's without Slater. Actually, without the danger of Edelman's injury or retirement, 4 WR plus 2 on the PS is enough. But, we will reserve a roster spot for Edelman.
4) I see Onwenu on the PS, but I think that it's reasonable to have him on the 53; just a judgment. Is he more valuable than Cunningham or Eluemunor? Is he really one of the best 53?

DEFENSE (ONLY 23)
IMO, front seven including only 13 players including STer's King and Maluia is just not enough.
I would add two players, or one and a Ster.
 
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mgteich

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So this is what I touched on earlier. Tom throws to a UDFA rook, rook drops ball, rook never sees a football ever again. Jarrett throws to UDFA rook, rook drops ball, Jarrett throws to rook again. Those WR's have a better chance making the team in 2020 then in recent years.
I agree that rooks have a better chance making the 5 man WR corps under Stidham, rather than under Brady.
 

notex

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
We have alot of "unproven" areas of the roster... LB/DL/OL /WR/TE... and I'd even say that in secondary (S and CB) we have some "mortal locks" to make roster and a couple of younger high draft pick players that need to be on roster for development.

So, it seems there are many areas that we need an "extra" player... will be interesting to see where we stock up and where we may be light.

On to the the thread (Jeff Thomas). Personally, I think Thomas is a great PS candidate. Has enough baggage that I am not sure another team would dedicate a roster spot to him without having him in building first, but has lots of skill...
 

captain stone

Hall of Fame Poster
One matter on which most of us might agree is that WR #5 will likely emerge from Byrd vs Thomas vs the field (i.e.: anyone not named Meyers or Lee), and that perhaps as few as just the winner of this little competition makes the 53...
 

Zuma

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One matter on which most of us might agree is that WR #5 will likely emerge from Byrd vs Thomas vs the field (i.e.: anyone not named Meyers or Lee), and that perhaps as few as just the winner of this little competition makes the 53...

I think they are fighting for the same spot. There has got to be a speedster on the 53 that can catch and be more productive then Dorsett was...whether that's WR1 or WR17...we shall see.
 

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