J. Kraft: Jones told us to "take your medicine"

[DarrylS]

Still finding it amusing that Jerry is some sort of hero for taking his stand.. he is none of that, all he is is a situational loudmouth, who encouraged BK to take his medicine on Brady and now that Elliot is a product of this unjust discipline system is making a lot of noise. A hero in this matter would have been outraged over the tx of Brady and the tx of Elliot, not one or the other.

Funny story on Jones, yesterday Boomer was on the radio(he has no love for Jones) and told a story about how he was at a ****tail party and talking with JJ who was talking about how much he hated the Giants and loved to beat them, Boomer later found out how Jones mistook him for Phil Simms..

 

[shmessy]

Still finding it amusing that Jerry is some sort of hero for taking his stand.. he is none of that, all he is is a situational loudmouth, who encouraged BK to take his medicine on Brady and now that Elliot is a product of this unjust discipline system is making a lot of noise. A hero in this matter would have been outraged over the tx of Brady and the tx of Elliot, not one or the other.

Funny story on Jones, yesterday Boomer was on the radio(he has no love for Jones) and told a story about how he was at a ****tail party and talking with JJ who was talking about how much he hated the Giants and loved to beat them, Boomer later found out how Jones mistook him for Phil Simms..

Perfectly stated. Jones is a situational loudmouth.

Amazing how some people can fall for anything.

Get yer popcorn, sit back and watch how "successful" Jones' attack is going to be. Let's compare. Will it end with Goodell being publicly pilloried in front of half a billion worldwide tv viewers while he hands the Lombardi to Jones in humiliating fashion?

NFL denies Jerry Jones' request on Roger Goodell deal, questions 'personal agenda'

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[IllegalContact]

this is hilarious.....people *****ing about Kraft not *****ing

I think not *****ing takes more strength

 

[Bella*chick]

Perfectly stated. Jones is a situational loudmouth.

Amazing how some people can fall for anything.

Get yer popcorn, sit back and watch how "successful" Jones' attack is going to be. Let's compare. Will it end with Goodell being publicly pilloried in front of half a billion worldwide tv viewers while he hands the Lombardi to Jones in humiliating fashion?

NFL denies Jerry Jones' request on Roger Goodell deal, questions 'personal agenda'

.

Actually this is an excellent point. I do kind of like Jones being an idiot because it doesn’t really affect me. Plus the immature side of me loves the spectacle. But nothing is going to actually happen. Nothing that Jones wants anyway.

 

[PatsDeb]

Still finding it amusing that Jerry is some sort of hero for taking his stand.. he is none of that, all he is is a situational loudmouth, who encouraged BK to take his medicine on Brady and now that Elliot is a product of this unjust discipline system is making a lot of noise. A hero in this matter would have been outraged over the tx of Brady and the tx of Elliot, not one or the other.

Funny story on Jones, yesterday Boomer was on the radio(he has no love for Jones) and told a story about how he was at a ****tail party and talking with JJ who was talking about how much he hated the Giants and loved to beat them, Boomer later found out how Jones mistook him for Phil Simms..

He's no hero, but if he can get rid of Goodell, great! I agree with those who say that this isn't going anywhere though (unfortunately). I hated Kraft's response to the bogus Brady suspension, but I think JK's response here is just perfect. He told us to take our medicine and focus on winning games. Looks like he should take his own advice.

Edit - it's a curious thing how the Pats and the Cowboys have reacted to these suspensions. Brady (reluctantly) and the Pats gave up and focused on how to win without Brady temporarily, and managed to take 3 out of 4 (and maybe would have made it 4 out of 4 without injuries to both of Brady's backups). Jones whines and cries and basically telegraphs to his team that they can't win without Elliot, and so they don't.

 

[Galeb]

Precisely. Brady also did the only thing he could at that time.

But Brady is not in a partnership business with the people he was fighting.

Kraft is.

The folks coming down on Kraft but not Brady for giving in do not understand this is not a comic book. It is business.

Brady carrying on a legal battled against outside forces is a FAR easier thing to do versus carrying on a legal fight against one's business partners.


It's amazing how many posters here have not understo0od the difference.

Actually,I was equally disappointed that BRADY stopped. What did he have to lose other than lawyer fees? But I understand. Kraft had far more to lose by taking even one step farther.




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Your excessive over-generalization of the opposing viewpoints fits perfectly with your idea that the long legal battle cost Brady nothing but legal fees. Besides intensifying and elongating the media frenzy and constant attacks he endured from the "scandal", all of his personal texts and e-mails were released to the public. To any objective observer, the legal battle was a painful one for Mr. Brady.

I don't believe the stance that Kraft had nothing to gain from fighting more than he did is invalid. That said, the broad brush brush you paint those who disagree betrays a very narrow perspective on the topic. You can continue to dig in deeper, or open your mind and try seeing the argument from a broader perspective. The choice is yours.

 

[Galeb]

this is hilarious.....people *****ing about Kraft not *****ing

I think not *****ing takes more strength

Don't forget the people *****ing about people *****ing about Kraft.

 

[shmessy]

.....Edit - it's a curious thing how the Pats and the Cowboys have reacted to these suspensions. Brady (reluctantly) and the Pats gave up and focused on how to win without Brady temporarily, and managed to take 3 out of 4 (and maybe would have made it 4 out of 4 without injuries to both of Brady's backups). Jones whines and cries and basically telegraphs to his team that they can't win without Elliot, and so they don't.

It's because Jerruh and his franchise are snowflakes.

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[shmessy]

Your excessive over-generalization of the opposing viewpoints fits perfectly with your idea that the long legal battle cost Brady nothing but legal fees. Besides intensifying and elongating the media frenzy and constant attacks he endured from the "scandal", all of his personal texts and e-mails were released to the public. To any objective observer, the legal battle was a painful one for Mr. Brady.

I don't believe the stance that Kraft had nothing to gain from fighting more than he did is invalid. That said, the broad brush brush you paint those who disagree betrays a very narrow perspective on the topic. You can continue to dig in deeper, or open your mind and try seeing the argument from a broader perspective. The choice is yours.

Hmmmmm....Galeb's opinion on Brady being sold out by Kraft or THIS guy's:




Gee, that's a tough one........

Really, I'm so sorry the pain you endured on behalf of Tom's reputation was so difficult. Tom seems to have recovered from it all much easier.

Folks, the whole "Glen Close/Fatal Attraction schtick is just weird at this point.

They won SB 51 and humiliated Goodell on a stage in front of the world in ways that Jerry Jones will NEVER be able to replicate. Let's compare at the end of Jerry's Jihad and see who got the better last laugh.

BTW, the "narrow perspective" is yours. I've actually come around to a different perspective as events proceeded. AT THE TIME of Defamegate breaking, I was pissed at Kraft and wanted him to fight harder. IIRC, I even created a thread then that was very scorched earth at him (I'll try to find it).

Post edit: here it is:

Mr Kraft, The Time has Come To Ask: Whose Side Are You On?

I was wrong, in retrospect. I was thinking checkers and Kraft was playing chess. I can see that clearly now. The fact that 2 years on, some folks can't see that is what it is.


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[Simpelton]

Your excessive over-generalization of the opposing viewpoints fits perfectly with your idea that the long legal battle cost Brady nothing but legal fees. Besides intensifying and elongating the media frenzy and constant attacks he endured from the "scandal", all of his personal texts and e-mails were released to the public. To any objective observer, the legal battle was a painful one for Mr. Brady.

I don't believe the stance that Kraft had nothing to gain from fighting more than he did is invalid. That said, the broad brush brush you paint those who disagree betrays a very narrow perspective on the topic. You can continue to dig in deeper, or open your mind and try seeing the argument from a broader perspective. The choice is yours.

There is no broader perspective. Kraft ultimately had two options

1: accept the ruling against his player
2: make a lot of noise and get penalized anyway, possibly with additional sanctions for his trouble.

Once Brady threw in the towel on the legal fight, Kraft had nothing. There was no weapon in his arsenal that he could actually use to fight what was happening. He can't oppose Article 46 because as an owner, it usually plays in his favor, just not this time. He can't oppose Goodell because he doesn't have the support to see that opposition through, and like a good oligarch he doesn't start fights he can't finish. So at the end of the day, Kraft exhausted all his real options, tried to make a back room deal to save face and save Brady at the same time, and got stabbed in the back. It happens.

As for why Kraft is not turning on Goodell now, I honestly think it's because his #1 take home from Deflategate was that the Patriots need to soften their presence in the owner's room. The Patriots managed to get themselves cornered with the other 31 against him. Preventing that from happening is Kraft's "job" and the penalty came down because he did not "do his job." If Kraft had had enough allies to prevent the vendetta of the butthurt owners from coming back to hurt him like this, Deflategate would never have happened because it would have been opposed from the inside.

So if Kraft identified that as the problem, what's the solution? To rant and rave and make more enemies by embarrassing the owners and their puppet? Or to play nice and try to gain standing in the owner's room even if it hurts your bottom line, show you're a good partner and leave the angry ranting to others?

Personally, I think Kraft analyzed the situation and this is very close to the conclusion he drew. Sticking out like a sore thumb would not get him where he wanted to be in the owner's room and could line him up for further vindictive penalties down the road. So instead of doing that, he took the pragmatic approach and worked to rebuild his alliances to prevent further shenanigans. And at the end of the day it's hard to argue with the results so far. I doubt Jerry Jones' results will be anything near as attractive.

 

[Galeb]

Hmmmmm....Galeb's opinion on Brady being sold out by Kraft or THIS guy's:




Gee, that's a tough one........

Really, I'm so sorry the pain you endured on behalf of Tom's reputation was so difficult. Tom seems to have recovered from it all much easier.

Folks, the whole "Glen Close/Fatal Attraction schtick is just weird at this point.

They won SB 51 and humiliated Goodell on a stage in front of the world in ways that Jerry Jones will NEVER be able to replicate. Let's compare at the end of Jerry's Jihad and see who got the better last laugh.

That being said, AT THE TIME, I would have liked Kraft to fight harder. IIRC, I even created a thread then that was very scorched earth at him (I'll try to find it).

I was wrong, in retrospect. I was thinking checkers and Kraft was playing chess. I can see that clearly now. The fact that 2 years on, some folks can't see that is what it is.


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I was referring to Brady's pain, not my own. It seems you've chosen to keep digging.

 

[Galeb]

There is no broader perspective. Kraft ultimately had two options

1: accept the ruling against his player
2: make a lot of noise and get penalized anyway, possibly with additional sanctions for his trouble.

Once Brady threw in the towel on the legal fight, Kraft had nothing. There was no weapon in his arsenal that he could actually use to fight what was happening. He can't oppose Article 46 because as an owner, it usually plays in his favor, just not this time. He can't oppose Goodell because he doesn't have the support to see that opposition through, and like a good oligarch he doesn't start fights he can't finish. So at the end of the day, Kraft exhausted all his real options, tried to make a back room deal to save face and save Brady at the same time, and got stabbed in the back. It happens.

As for why Kraft is not turning on Goodell now, I honestly think it's because his #1 take home from Deflategate was that the Patriots need to soften their presence in the owner's room. The Patriots managed to get themselves cornered with the other 31 against him. Preventing that from happening is Kraft's "job" and the penalty came down because he did not "do his job." If Kraft had had enough allies to prevent the vendetta of the butthurt owners from coming back to hurt him like this, Deflategate would never have happened because it would have been opposed from the inside.

So if Kraft identified that as the problem, what's the solution? To rant and rave and make more enemies by embarrassing the owners and their puppet? Or to play nice and try to gain standing in the owner's room even if it hurts your bottom line, show you're a good partner and leave the angry ranting to others?

Personally, I think Kraft analyzed the situation and this is very close to the conclusion he drew. Sticking out like a sore thumb would not get him where he wanted to be in the owner's room and could line him up for further vindictive penalties down the road. So instead of doing that, he took the pragmatic approach and worked to rebuild his alliances to prevent further shenanigans. And at the end of the day it's hard to argue with the results so far. I doubt Jerry Jones' results will be anything near as attractive.

Your processing is very good, and your use of abstraction and logic are excellent... until you run into your bias. If you could ever open your mind and be more self critical, you would be a formidable intellect.

I'm not saying Kraft should have fought much harder. I genuinely don't know enough about the situation to make an educated judgement either way... like everyone else in this thread. I find his hugging of Mara and Goodel afterwards distasteful, but that's just personal opinion.

 

[shmessy]

I was referring to Brady's pain, not my own. It seems you've chosen to keep digging.

Open your eyes and look deeply at that picture Galeb.

What mysterious pain are you referring to, sir?

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[PatsDeb]

There is no broader perspective. Kraft ultimately had two options

1: accept the ruling against his player
2: make a lot of noise and get penalized anyway, possibly with additional sanctions for his trouble.

Once Brady threw in the towel on the legal fight, Kraft had nothing. There was no weapon in his arsenal that he could actually use to fight what was happening. He can't oppose Article 46 because as an owner, it usually plays in his favor, just not this time. He can't oppose Goodell because he doesn't have the support to see that opposition through, and like a good oligarch he doesn't start fights he can't finish. So at the end of the day, Kraft exhausted all his real options, tried to make a back room deal to save face and save Brady at the same time, and got stabbed in the back. It happens.

As for why Kraft is not turning on Goodell now, I honestly think it's because his #1 take home from Deflategate was that the Patriots need to soften their presence in the owner's room. The Patriots managed to get themselves cornered with the other 31 against him. Preventing that from happening is Kraft's "job" and the penalty came down because he did not "do his job." If Kraft had had enough allies to prevent the vendetta of the butthurt owners from coming back to hurt him like this, Deflategate would never have happened because it would have been opposed from the inside.

So if Kraft identified that as the problem, what's the solution? To rant and rave and make more enemies by embarrassing the owners and their puppet? Or to play nice and try to gain standing in the owner's room even if it hurts your bottom line, show you're a good partner and leave the angry ranting to others?

Personally, I think Kraft analyzed the situation and this is very close to the conclusion he drew. Sticking out like a sore thumb would not get him where he wanted to be in the owner's room and could line him up for further vindictive penalties down the road. So instead of doing that, he took the pragmatic approach and worked to rebuild his alliances to prevent further shenanigans. And at the end of the day it's hard to argue with the results so far. I doubt Jerry Jones' results will be anything near as attractive.

This has it backwards, though. Kraft threw in the towel way before Brady did, and lack of support from his owner (along with other personal stuff going on) may have influenced Brady to give up the fight. If Kraft had no support whatsoever amongst other owners to take on Goodell and his fraudulent conduct towards Tom Brady, I guess I understand a little better why he was such a wimp, but he WAS a wimp in my opinion, and that is never going to change (my opinion, that is). It doesn't mean I hate Kraft, but it also doesn't mean I think he handled things right. It's all water under the bridge at this point, obviously, and it's amusing to see Jerrah get a bitter taste of his own medicine. I still hate Goodell, though, and if Jones could get rid of him, great. If not, we're on to Miami!

 

[Galeb]

Look at the picture Galeb.

What pain are you referring to, sir?

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Imagine having all of your personal e-mails and texts released to the public. Imagine the intense media frenzy and barrage of attacks he endured. Brady is strong and resilient. There is little the universe could throw at him that he couldn't endure, learn from and come out better afterwards. It takes an extreme self awareness, humility and open mind to do what Brady does. That said, don't think the path he chose was without significant pain and sacrifice.

If you can't imagine the pain he endured, then it is your eyes that are closed.

 

[Simpelton]

Your processing is very good, and your use of abstraction and logic is excellent... until you run into your bias. If you could ever open your mind and be more self critical, you would be a formidable intellect.

I'm not saying Kraft should have fought much harder. I genuinely don't know enough about the situation to make an educated judgement either way... like everyone else in this thread. I find his hugging of Mara and Goodel afterwards distasteful, but that's just personal opinion.

Believe me, Galeb, if anything, my problem is that I am way TOO self-critical. But thank you for the left-handed compliment.

As for finding Kraft's strategy for responding to the fallout of Deflategate (which was the only strategic decision that was ultimately Kraft's to make), I found it distasteful too. The politics of oligarchies are often distasteful. Many times the necessary or pragmatic solution is distasteful.

Many fans see what Kraft did as ultimately "laying down and taking it" or some such. I disagree entirely with that assessment because it's based on a bad framework. What to do about Deflategate was ultimately the wrong question. The right question is, what to do to prevent the next Deflategate.

Kraft ultimately can't rewrite the rules on his own or undo an injustice when he's outvoted 31-1. The rules as written gave Goodell all the power he needed to enforce the penalty as he saw fit. That battle was not winnable once Brady's legal options with the union were exhausted. And as an NFL owner with no allies in the room willing to stick their necks out for him, Kraft's strategic options to prevent Deflategate were nil.

From the standpoint of pragmatism, so essential in the politics of an oligarchic form of government like the NFL, Kraft's only strategic consideration is what to do after the penalty was enforced. His options were to conciliate and build alliances, or to stand defiant.

Aesop's fable of the oak and the reeds is illuminating to the dilemma as I see it. The oak may look more manly, may feel more secure, but come back after the hurricane, and the reeds are the ones still standing.

 

[Galeb]

Believe me, Galeb, if anything, my problem is that I am way TOO self-critical. But thank you for the left-handed compliment.

As for finding Kraft's strategy for responding to the fallout of Deflategate (which was the only strategic decision that was ultimately Kraft's to make), I found it distasteful too. The politics of oligarchies are often distasteful. Many times the necessary or pragmatic solution is distasteful.

Many fans see what Kraft did as ultimately "laying down and taking it" or some such. I disagree entirely with that assessment because it's based on a bad framework. Kraft ultimately can't rewrite the rules on his own or undo an injustice when he's outvoted 31-1. His only strategic decision is what to do after the penalty was enforced. His options were to conciliate and build alliances, or to stand defiant.

Aesop's fable of the oak and the reeds is illuminating to the dilemma as I see it. The oak may look more manly, may feel more secure, but come back after the hurricane, and the reeds are the ones still standing.

Self critical was the wrong word. Critical of your own beliefs and conclusions is more precise. You have great potential, my friend.

For the record, I believe Kraft going nuclear would have been dumb.

 

[Galeb]

Galeb, I am trying very hard to see what you are seeing in this. Try as I do, I just can't see it. Now I'm squinting......Can you give me a hint? Is it the angle at which he's pouring the wine bottle? Did he slip a micky in the drink? Help me out here......

Look, Defamegate sucked for Brady. I honestly don't understand how he got through it. However, it is PATENTLY CLEAR to anyone with a working cerebellum that he holds nothing against Kraft for his handling on his part.

You can try all you want to say "open your perspective", but no, there earth is not flat.

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Yes, a picture of a happy moment that happened after an intense ordeal means the person couldn't possibly have suffered during said ordeal. If you can't see the total idiocy of this idea, I see no reason to continue this conversation.

 

[shmessy]

Yes, a picture of a happy moment that happened after an intense ordeal means the person couldn't possibly have suffered during said ordeal. If you can't see the total idiocy of this idea, I see no reason to continue this conversation.

That's not what I said. Brady suffered from Defamegate at the time. But not because of Kraft.

Save it for Kensil, Woody Johnson, Irsay, and yes, Jerry Jones for the real villains of Defamegate.


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[Galeb]

That's not what I said. Brady suffered from Defamegate at the time. But not because of Kraft.

Save it for Kensil, Woody Johnson, Irsay, and yes, Jerry Jones for the real villains of Defamegate.


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I never claimed Kraft was the root of Brady's suffering. My argument was Brady's legal battle cost him far more than legal fees. Try really understanding what people are trying to say before trying to prove them wrong. You've argued against things other didn't say a few times in this thread, which is why I jumped in in the first place.