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It Looks Like No Long term Deal between Pats and Welker

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You've been around long enough to know that the franchise tag is a one year deal. You're not confused. You're just doing a piss poor job of being a smart ass.

That's what i said. It's 9.5 million dollars a year, then most likely, he will be a free agent and able to sign a huge multiyear contract with anyone he wants, if they offer one.

I'm not being a smartass at all, that is the situation.

I severely doubt they will give him 11 million for next year, that is.
 
That's what i said. It's 9.5 million dollars a year, then most likely, he will be a free agent and able to sign a huge multiyear contract with anyone he wants, if they offer one.

I'm not being a smartass at all, that is the situation.

I severely doubt they will give him 11 million for next year, that is.

You were asking about what other offers there would be. I know you're trying to be a smart ass because you know your position sucks but you want to go with it anyway, but at least remember your own side for crying out loud.
 
They made him a bullsh.t offer and you know it, If they wanted him beyond this year they would have made a real offer. If you want to play games you'll have to find someone else to do it with because i'm not interested.

I have no idea what the total offer, guaranteed money and possible years were. None of the reporters had more than inklings, as far as i could see.

Welker must think he can get a better deal between the franchise tag, which isn't peanuts, and being a free agent next year.
 
You were asking about what other offers there would be. I know you're trying to be a smart ass because you know your position sucks but you want to go with it anyway, but at least remember your own side for crying out loud.

If they don't tag him next year, and i doubt they will, he will entertain offers from the Pats and other teams. He's making 9.5 million this year.

I have no idea what you're talking about.
 
I have no idea what the total offer, guaranteed money and possible years were. None of the reporters had more than inklings, as far as i could see.

Welker must think he can get a better deal between the franchise tag, which isn't peanuts, and being a free agent next year.



The report was 2 for 16 and Welker claimed they lowered it. Welker thought they would negotiate in good faith, they didn't, his mistake.
 
If they don't tag him next year, and i doubt they will, he will entertain offers from the Pats and other teams. He's making 9.5 million this year.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Ok, I'm not going to play this "Ray's clueless on purpose" game with you tonight. Have fun playing it with someone else.
 
pathetic...this team tests it's fan base. Brady and Belichick make up a lot of deficiences in justifying the Patriot Way, without them the Patriot Way is not as glorious...

shameful....
 
pathetic...this team tests it's fan base. Brady and Belichick make up a lot of deficiences in justifying the Patriot Way, without them the Patriot Way is not as glorious...

shameful....


Agree completely, but what has been really pathetic to me is how many of the fans have supported this treatment of Welker.
 
Agree completely, but what has been really pathetic to me is how many of the fans have supported this treatment of Welker.

I kind of like the way the Patriots have handled their business since Robert Kraft hired BB.

Can you name a more successful team and organization??
 
So every once in a while the Pats do something that I don't understand (granted more often than not it eventually makes sense) and this is one of them. Aside from the visuals here, it can't be seen as conforming to the "Patriot Way" by fans or other players. Yeah he's going to make 9.5 mil guaranteed so I don't think he's underpaid but it's very likely that the same 9.5 guaranteed may have bought a longer contract that the Patriots have the option of ending at pretty much any time. I know it's not that simple but if they want to keep him for 2 years it will cost them 20 mil.
It's pretty hard for me to see this as anything other than taking advantage of a player who has produced way beyond his paycheck and who, by all appearances, made a good faith effort to compromise. Obviously we don't have all the facts (maybe we have none of them) but from where I'm sitting it's kind of disappointing that a mutually satisfactory deal couldn't be reached.
 
With the Patriots declining to do a long-term deal, this is likely Welker's last year in New England. It's possible the Patriots could use the tag again next year but they probably won't. In all likelihood, Welker is gone, and I think the Patriots will regret it.

No we won't. He's old and washed up. There's a chance he might get injured and Edelman can EASILY replace him.

It's amazing to see, actually, how screwed up this system can at times be. Dallas' Anthony Spencer was tagged by Dallas because of a down market on pass rushers but he will basically make the same amount of cash next year as Welker. It's crazy.

Wow.

Edelman can easily replace him? Just like Hoyer can easily replace Brady.
 
What if they offer him a better deal than any other team next year?

They won't, because that would make them look like idiots.

Bedard summed that up pretty well too.


Greg A. Bedard?@GregABedard

Belichick has a terrific record making these calls, but I think this will be his toughest. Not like Patriots grow WRs on trees

If Welker plays well, it puts the Patriots in a heck of a box. $11.41 million tag or market extension. Don't think they open either

Welker would have easily landed a 4 year $32-36M deal with $20M guaranteed on the open market this year. If he continues to perform at near 2011 levels in 2012, he will easily land a 3 year $21-24M deal with $12M-14M guaranteed. That offer won't come from NE any more than it did this year. The only way the geniuses look like geniuses is if he puts up 100+ catches and 1200 yards and 7-8 TD's and they win it all while he tears the other ACL in the 4th quarter of the SB. I for one can't root for that. I hope we win of course, and then I hope Wes gets his big deal and makes them regret it at least once a year for a couple of more years.

I guarantee you there will be a line waiting on him next March if he can get through this season healthy. Pioli will be at the head of it, unless he's lost his job and Matt's by then. Dimetroff will be in line too. Along with several contenders with legit franchise QB's, not to mention the usual desperate housewives.

Remember Ray, all that is guaranteed in any NFL contract is the guaranteed money. They could have signed Welker to a 10 year deal at $9.5M per and it means nothing beyond how much of the deal was guaranteed. He was apparently looking for something in the $20M range on a 3 year deal. 4 would have been better for him and for them for cap management purposes, but that was apparently never even contemplated. Once that deal passes the 2 year mark, you're working for whatever they'll pay you down to veteran minimum or you're traded to siberia or they kick you to the curb.

I always got why they did what they did in the past. Milloy was a club house cancer and not even living up to his own hype let alone salary or cap hit at a time when they were up against the cap because with one ring in hand he was complacent. And he wouldn't work with them to change any of that, which was Belichick's crushing disappointment. Ty was worth his salary but he couldn't add a couple of years on his deal to help them with the cap because his cap # was how he measured himself. Then of course he got hurt... Branch called their bluff brilliantly and financially it paid off for him even though it sucked for him production wise. It killed another shot or two at a ring for us so IMO we got the short end of that deal. Asante had zero core leadership value, was a ballhawke who liked to gamble and really a half year wonder here and he wanted to be paid like a top 3 shutdown corner. I'd have tagged and traded him before 2007 and I don't think it would have changed a thing beyond we might have won another ring or at least had another #1 pick in reserve to add value. Seymour wasn't as vocal as Milloy but he was raised by him as a rookie and had it drilled into him to "get your's". And he was committed to. 3 rings and 3 more years at $12.5M+. I guarantee you he has no regrets beyond he wishes he could have gotten that here. And despite the performance of then 2009-11 defense, they don't regret their decision to trade him for a future #1 either. He wasn't going to be the difference in 2009 and he wasn't going to be here in 2010.

This time i just don't get it. Not given the player and how he's performed here consistently and how hard it is to locate receivers who can play effectively in this system and what he was apparently asking for. He's 31 and coming off a record season after leading the league in receptions since 2007. Brady calls him the heart and soul of this offense. Just makes no sense. Not to mention Brady must be fuming (although he won't admit it). Just so unnecessary. They're $10M under the cap with Welker on the tag and $24M under before any rollover in 2013 with Brady carrying a $22M cap hit...
 
The worst case scenario here was that they give Welker a ton of guaranteed money, he bombs either of the next two seasons, and they take on a ton of dead money to cut him. I don't blame them for wanting to completely avoid that.
 
Dig yourself out...
Who shut him down?








If a slot receiver is getting less yards per catch, he is getting less first downs whereas a player who runs past the 10yd line for their respective routes will make the 1st down regardless. My blabbering makes total sense. You just don't understand it or refuse to acknowledge it.
That simply isnt true unless he is actually getting less first downs. If its 3rd and 4 and he gets 5, 6,12, or 40 he still gets the first down.
That is why it makes no sesne. I completely acknowledge your argument, which is trying to replace fact (Welker getting first downs) with conjecture (if his ypc is low he wouldn't get as many first downs). You seem to not recognize an argument that centers on a possibility is flawed when the facts show that possiblity didnt occur.





...and you are being subborn.

I have certainly been known to be, and perhaps I am here, if you consider expecting your conclusion to be supported by facts instead of conjecture where facts exist is stubborn. I would consider that a complement in that case.
 
The worst case scenario here was that they give Welker a ton of guaranteed money, he bombs either of the next two seasons, and they take on a ton of dead money to cut him. I don't blame them for wanting to completely avoid that.

So the worst case scenario was the exact same scenario that can happen with any player in football.

You must have been pissed when they signed guys like Brady, Wilfork, Mayo, Mankins, etc... to multiyear deals.
 
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The worst case scenario here was that they give Welker a ton of guaranteed money, he bombs either of the next two seasons, and they take on a ton of dead money to cut him. I don't blame them for wanting to completely avoid that.

If they structured a 3 year deal to limit signing bonus they take a minimal dead cap hit in year 3 if they cut him. The worst case scenario for them now is he continues to put up 100+ receptions for another 2-3 seasons and 2 of them aren't here.

According to Tom Curran tonight he's been told the team made the decision last fall when he turned down the 2 year $16M offer to take it a year at a time with Welker and take their chances they could tag him and then re tag him or somehow resign him next year. So they didn't tag him in good faith, at least we know that. Curran says there are hurt feelings in the Welker camp, although Welker himself will compartmentalize them for the season as all the great players here do. I just think it's pretty arrogant to assume they will remain compartmentalized once the season is over. He mentioned the possibility they could tag him specifically to trade him to someone like Pioli next season. Again, pretty presumptious to assume Pioli would play the patsy again. And if Welker won't sign the tag next time they can't trade him... Not like teams wouldn't know that or realize they'd be dealing with a team playing russian roulette with a tag they don't want to be stuck with...
 
If they structured a 3 year deal to limit signing bonus they take a minimal dead cap hit in year 3 if they cut him. The worst case scenario for them now is he continues to put up 100+ receptions for another 2-3 seasons and 2 of them aren't here.

According to Tom Curran tonight he's been told the team made the decision last fall when he turned down the 2 year $16M offer to take it a year at a time with Welker and take their chances they could tag him and then re tag him or somehow resign him next year. So they didn't tag him in good faith, at least we know that. Curran says there are hurt feelings in the Welker camp, although Welker himself will compartmentalize them for the season as all the great players here do. I just think it's pretty arrogant to assume they will remain compartmentalized once the season is over. He mentioned the possibility they could tag him specifically to trade him to someone like Pioli next season. Again, pretty presumptious to assume Pioli would play the patsy again. And if Welker won't sign the tag next time they can't trade him... Not like teams wouldn't know that or realize they'd be dealing with a team playing russian roulette with a tag they don't want to be stuck with...

Please explain the difference between franchise tagging 'in good faith' and not in good faith.
I was not under the impression that there was any obligation assumed in tagging a player that you will then pay him whatever he asks for.
 
I don't get all of the over the top agnst. Belichick is not being a bastard simply for the sake of being a bastard. The Pat's are making a business decision based on expected future performance. Wes wants a premium contract and Bill seemingly doen't think his future potential is worthy of it. Folks gloss over the very real decline in prodcutivity of recievers that are over 30 years old, especially quick smaller receivers.
 
They won't, because that would make them look like idiots.

Bedard summed that up pretty well too.




Welker would have easily landed a 4 year $32-36M deal with $20M guaranteed on the open market this year. If he continues to perform at near 2011 levels in 2012, he will easily land a 3 year $21-24M deal with $12M-14M guaranteed. That offer won't come from NE any more than it did this year. The only way the geniuses look like geniuses is if he puts up 100+ catches and 1200 yards and 7-8 TD's and they win it all while he tears the other ACL in the 4th quarter of the SB. I for one can't root for that. I hope we win of course, and then I hope Wes gets his big deal and makes them regret it at least once a year for a couple of more years.

I guarantee you there will be a line waiting on him next March if he can get through this season healthy. Pioli will be at the head of it, unless he's lost his job and Matt's by then. Dimetroff will be in line too. Along with several contenders with legit franchise QB's, not to mention the usual desperate housewives.

Remember Ray, all that is guaranteed in any NFL contract is the guaranteed money. They could have signed Welker to a 10 year deal at $9.5M per and it means nothing beyond how much of the deal was guaranteed. He was apparently looking for something in the $20M range on a 3 year deal. 4 would have been better for him and for them for cap management purposes, but that was apparently never even contemplated. Once that deal passes the 2 year mark, you're working for whatever they'll pay you down to veteran minimum or you're traded to siberia or they kick you to the curb.

I always got why they did what they did in the past. Milloy was a club house cancer and not even living up to his own hype let alone salary or cap hit at a time when they were up against the cap because with one ring in hand he was complacent. And he wouldn't work with them to change any of that, which was Belichick's crushing disappointment. Ty was worth his salary but he couldn't add a couple of years on his deal to help them with the cap because his cap # was how he measured himself. Then of course he got hurt... Branch called their bluff brilliantly and financially it paid off for him even though it sucked for him production wise. It killed another shot or two at a ring for us so IMO we got the short end of that deal. Asante had zero core leadership value, was a ballhawke who liked to gamble and really a half year wonder here and he wanted to be paid like a top 3 shutdown corner. I'd have tagged and traded him before 2007 and I don't think it would have changed a thing beyond we might have won another ring or at least had another #1 pick in reserve to add value. Seymour wasn't as vocal as Milloy but he was raised by him as a rookie and had it drilled into him to "get your's". And he was committed to. 3 rings and 3 more years at $12.5M+. I guarantee you he has no regrets beyond he wishes he could have gotten that here. And despite the performance of then 2009-11 defense, they don't regret their decision to trade him for a future #1 either. He wasn't going to be the difference in 2009 and he wasn't going to be here in 2010.

This time i just don't get it. Not given the player and how he's performed here consistently and how hard it is to locate receivers who can play effectively in this system and what he was apparently asking for. He's 31 and coming off a record season after leading the league in receptions since 2007. Brady calls him the heart and soul of this offense. Just makes no sense. Not to mention Brady must be fuming (although he won't admit it). Just so unnecessary. They're $10M under the cap with Welker on the tag and $24M under before any rollover in 2013 with Brady carrying a $22M cap hit...

I don't think they care at all about looking like idiots (not that i think they would). They offered him a 2-3 contract at a certain amount of guaranteed money. He's gambling that they he'll make out better in free agency plus the franchise year. No one was held hostage here, there are contract negotiations for some player every year. Your user name is a knock on a player that was paid too much and helped destroy our business options, because the owner loved him.

The team has to do what's best for the team in the future. Many young players will come up for contract that will affect our long term future. Do we only negotiate with players we don't like and give a blank check to the popular ones? Welker could have had more security but didn't like the money, guaranteed dough or length compared to 9.5 million and freedom next year.

I thought the pats looked like jerks to resign Branch after he basically held us hostage and ruined our receiver corps for a year. they don't. they needed a receiver who knew the system, he needed a job.

We will never run out of players we love that we simply have to pay very long term. If we do, for everyone, we will be back where we were pre Belichick, with the worst contract situation in football (according to Buschbaum article that's probably gone).
 
I'm not going to read through the whole thread as I know people have passionate arguments for and against. I am bummed that the Pats did not get this done and I think it will come back to haunt them. Nothing to back it up but a gut feeling. I will get over it once the season starts, but this is one of those (few) days that I don't love the Pats 100%.
 
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