Is It Time For Edelman To Go?

[patfanken]

Here are a couple of things that I don't understand.

1. Why are we even having a discussion on this since Edelman has provided more production when compared to cost than fully half the roster. Yeah, I.have an idea Lets cut the guy who does more....for less.....and has done it consistently for 3 years.

2. Why are Edelman's receiving skills so disregarded, when, as Scriz pointed out very early in this thread, in EVERY circumstance that he's had the opportunity to get consistent snaps at the slot receiver he has produced. Granted those situations have been rare, but that is more of a factor of Welker's good health, than Edelman's poor play.

3. He's proven to be a better than average punt returner, and is rare in that he will also cover kicks and do it well.

4. Hopefully the fact that he can play DB in an emergency will be a non-factor this season. And I put little importance on this ability in making a roster decision, since I doubt it will become necessary. (God I hope so).

MG- if yoiu offered this thread as a push to create discussion then I see your point. If you actually think that Edelman's roster spot is any more at risk than any of the other WR's not named Welker and Lloyd, then at best you are over thinking, and at worst, you just submitted the dumbest thread you've ever offered....by far. (JMHO )

BTW- Just in a side note that was interesting (at least to me) on special teams roster assignments. I think that Tracy White could be in jeopardy if I follow your thinking. Both White and Koutouvides are emergency LB's who excel on special teams. I'm thinking that Koutouvides just might have more value as a coverage LB in certain packages than White, and give us just as much on coverage teams. Do we need 2 "emergency" LB/ST aces?

 

[Gronkandez]

Then, on average, you celebrated every time he touched the ball on a kickoff return last year.

12/284/23.7

Julian Edelman: Career Stats at NFL.com

Work harder. This is patsfans.com.

See what you've done there is incorrectly assumed he received the ball at the goal line every time. I'm sure when you do some thinking you'll realize that since the kickoff was moved, most kicks are about three to five yards deep in the end zone. Then you'll realize that a 23-yard return from five yards deep in the end zone brings the ball out to the 18 yard line.

According to the link below Edelman was tied for the 51st best KO return average.

Please smarten up.

2011 NFL Player Returning Stats - National Football League - ESPN

 

[Gronkandez]

MG- if yoiu offered this thread as a push to create discussion then I see your point. If you actually think that Edelman's roster spot is any more at risk than any of the other WR's not named Welker and Lloyd, then at best you are over thinking, and at worst, you just submitted the dumbest thread you've ever offered....by far. (JMHO )

Wow, that's harsh, I think it's a decent topic for discussion. I wouldn't say he's more at risk of making the roster then Gonzo or Stallworth, but I would say Edleman is more at risk of being cut than in years past.

Pro's
above average punt returner, low salary, can play defense if the team is desperate, is a below average kick returner but he can do it and if he gets hurt doing it the team isn't effected much vs a McCourty or other starter


Cons
While he can do a lot he can't do a lot well (except PR), durability may be a concern, was accused of groping a girl on the dance floor last season (he was acquitted but this can't help his cause). He hasn't produced as a WR since his rookie year, only producing four catches last year and 7 the year before.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Cons
While he can do a lot he can't do a lot well (except PR), durability may be a concern, was accused of groping a girl on the dance floor last season (he was acquitted but this can't help his cause). He hasn't produced as a WR since his rookie year, only producing four catches last year and 7 the year before.

He wasn't "acquitted," because he wasn't even put on trial: the DA said there was no evidence that anything Edelman did rose to the level of a criminal offense.

 

[Salva135]

Here are a couple of things that I don't understand.

1. Why are we even having a discussion on this since Edelman has provided more production when compared to cost than fully half the roster. Yeah, I.have an idea Lets cut the guy who does more....for less.....and has done it consistently for 3 years.

2. Why are Edelman's receiving skills so disregarded, when, as Scriz pointed out very early in this thread, in EVERY circumstance that he's had the opportunity to get consistent snaps at the slot receiver he has produced. Granted those situations have been rare, but that is more of a factor of Welker's good health, than Edelman's poor play.

3. He's proven to be a better than average punt returner, and is rare in that he will also cover kicks and do it well.

4. Hopefully the fact that he can play DB in an emergency will be a non-factor this season. And I put little importance on this ability in making a roster decision, since I doubt it will become necessary. (God I hope so).

MG- if yoiu offered this thread as a push to create discussion then I see your point. If you actually think that Edelman's roster spot is any more at risk than any of the other WR's not named Welker and Lloyd, then at best you are over thinking, and at worst, you just submitted the dumbest thread you've ever offered....by far. (JMHO )

BTW- Just in a side note that was interesting (at least to me) on special teams roster assignments. I think that Tracy White could be in jeopardy if I follow your thinking. Both White and Koutouvides are emergency LB's who excel on special teams. I'm thinking that Koutouvides just might have more value as a coverage LB in certain packages than White, and give us just as much on coverage teams. Do we need 2 "emergency" LB/ST aces?

I can't find numbers to prove otherwise, so I think he's fine at this, but certainly not irreplaceable. And he's a JAG WR. If he ends up on slot DB it means the Pats are ****ed.

Seriously he's an emergency, "let's hope we never see him" guy.

 

[Gronkandez]

He wasn't "acquitted," because he wasn't even put on trial: the DA said there was no evidence that anything Edelman did rose to the level of a criminal offense.

Correct, I didn't use the accurate legal terminolgy. Either way I'm sure BB wasnt trilled about the media exposure.

After a thorough investigation of this case by the Boston Police Department's Sexual Assault Unit … the Commonwealth has concluded that it would not be able to meet its burden at trial of proving each of the elements of indecent assault and battery beyond a reasonable doubt. Specifically, a review of both witness statements and video surveillance has revealed that the Commonwealth would be unable to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant intentionally engaged in a harmful or offensive touching of the complainant that would be regarded by society as immodest, immoral, and improper.

Indecent-assault charge dropped against Pats player; DA says not enough evidence to convict | Universal Hub

 

[patfanken]

He wasn't "acquitted," because he wasn't even put on trial: the DA said there was no evidence that anything Edelman did rose to the level of a criminal offense.

And don't forget that when all was said and done, there is now a great question of whether Edelman did ANYTHING at all.

Pretty weak on your part to continue a libelous myth for the sake of propping up your weak argument.

 

[mgteich]

A) I agree that Koutouvides could beat out White (the Super Bowl starter). I just don't think that this will happen. I think that White is one of the very best at this position.

B) There have been 5 arguments that seem to yield you conculsion that Edelman is our 3rd most valuable WR.

1) Edelman is our punt returner, and a good one. I don't think that Belichick allocates a roster spot to a returner. Otherwise, Hobbs and/or Tate would still be here.

2) Edelman is our best nickel, our best free safety, or at minimum good enough to be a backup defensive back (with an offseason of practice). This is easy enough to test. Just see how many defensive reps Edelman gets in practice and in the preseason.

3) Edelman is by far our best slot receiver, and this is worth a roster spot.

4) Edelman has been valuable in the past at positions where sufficient depth didn't exist, so he has earned a future roster spot.

5) As we make decisions about the bottom of the roster, Edelman will always be found to be more valuable that at least one other. Edelman is good enough on the various special teams units to be active.

I think that #5 is the strongest argument.

Here are a couple of things that I don't understand.

1. Why are we even having a discussion on this since Edelman has provided more production when compared to cost than fully half the roster. Yeah, I.have an idea Lets cut the guy who does more....for less.....and has done it consistently for 3 years.

2. Why are Edelman's receiving skills so disregarded, when, as Scriz pointed out very early in this thread, in EVERY circumstance that he's had the opportunity to get consistent snaps at the slot receiver he has produced. Granted those situations have been rare, but that is more of a factor of Welker's good health, than Edelman's poor play.

3. He's proven to be a better than average punt returner, and is rare in that he will also cover kicks and do it well.

4. Hopefully the fact that he can play DB in an emergency will be a non-factor this season. And I put little importance on this ability in making a roster decision, since I doubt it will become necessary. (God I hope so).

MG- if yoiu offered this thread as a push to create discussion then I see your point. If you actually think that Edelman's roster spot is any more at risk than any of the other WR's not named Welker and Lloyd, then at best you are over thinking, and at worst, you just submitted the dumbest thread you've ever offered....by far. (JMHO )

BTW- Just in a side note that was interesting (at least to me) on special teams roster assignments. I think that Tracy White could be in jeopardy if I follow your thinking. Both White and Koutouvides are emergency LB's who excel on special teams. I'm thinking that Koutouvides just might have more value as a coverage LB in certain packages than White, and give us just as much on coverage teams. Do we need 2 "emergency" LB/ST aces?

 

[patfanken]

I can't find numbers to prove otherwise, so I think he's fine at this, but certainly not irreplaceable. And he's a JAG WR. If he ends up on slot DB it means the Pats are ****ed.

Seriously he's an emergency, "let's hope we never see him" guy.

Well its been cited in this thread that he was the 12th rated punt returner in the league last season. He also has had 2 TDs in that role, plus one called back (btw he has 2 of the 3 punt return TDs in the BB era)

Again calling him a JAG WR is off base. As Scriz pointed out, in EVERY opportunity that he had to play the slot receiver he has excelled. How hard is that to understand?! No one can produce if you don't get any significant looks.

Are you aware that in his first year EVER playing WR on any level, he produced only 64 yds less that Deion Branch did in his rookie year. Calling him a JAG is just sloppy reasoning.

 

[Gronkandez]

And don't forget that when all was said and done, there is now a great question of whether Edelman did ANYTHING at all.

Pretty weak on your part to continue a libelous myth for the sake of propping up your weak argument.

I said he "was accused of groping a girl on the dance floor last season." That is a fact. I'm not saying or implying he did anything wrong. My point is I don't think Belichick likes it when his players make headlines for this type of stuff.

 

[patfanken]

Wow, that's harsh, I think it's a decent topic for discussion. I wouldn't say he's more at risk of making the roster then Gonzo or Stallworth, but I would say Edleman is more at risk of being cut than in years past.

not so much harsh as hyperbolic to make a point, and I said it was dumb only in a worst case scenario. MG is a HOF poster

Cons
While he can do a lot he can't do a lot well (except PR), durability may be a concern, was accused of groping a girl on the dance floor last season (he was acquitted but this can't help his cause). He hasn't produced as a WR since his rookie year, only producing four catches last year and 7 the year before.

Why do you keep making the same mistake over and over again. There is a reason he isn't making more catches. Its because he isn't getting the OPPORTUNITIES! If you played behind Wes Welker the last 3 years yo wouldn't get many opportunities.

Would you at least agree that when he HAS had those opportunities that he DID produce. Would you at least admit that you thought he had a productive rookie year. And would you at least admit that it is VERY likely that his is now a better WR going into this year, than he was playing a position he'd never played....on ANY level?

Then given all that, wouldn't you think that its logical to assume that if Wes Welker was kidnapped tomorrow that Julian Edelman is likely to be a productive slot receiver for the Pats? Probably not as productive as Welker was, but neither has ANYONE else in the league over the last 5 years. Can we at least agree that the above is "likely" result?

 

[Gronkandez]

not so much harsh as hyperbolic to make a point, and I said it was dumb only in a worst case scenario. MG is a HOF poster

Why do you keep making the same mistake over and over again. There is a reason he isn't making more catches. Its because he isn't getting the OPPORTUNITIES! If you played behind Wes Welker the last 3 years yo wouldn't get many opportunities.

Would you at least agree that when he HAS had those opportunities that he DID produce. Would you at least admit that you thought he had a productive rookie year. And would you at least admit that it is VERY likely that his is now a better WR going into this year, than he was playing a position he'd never played....on ANY level?

Then given all that, wouldn't you think that its logical to assume that if Wes Welker was kidnapped tomorrow that Julian Edelman is likely to be a productive slot receiver for the Pats? Probably not as productive as Welker was, but neither has ANYONE else in the league over the last 5 years. Can we at least agree that the above is "likely" result?

I agree he looked good in 2009. At the time I thought he could fill Welker's role sufficiently at a much lower cost. I was a big fan of mini-me. But he has COMPLETELY disappeared as a WR since then. 11 total catches in two years. I realize you think this is solely because Welker is playing, but Welker was also playing in 2009, minus the Ravens playoff game and most of the Houston game.

My opinion is BB doesn't think he's progressed enough as a WR to play him out there. I think signing of slot receiver, Anthony Gonzalez, is not a good sign for Edelman. AG is not guaranteed to make the team but if he does do you think the Pats keep three slot receivers?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I said he "was accused of groping a girl on the dance floor last season." That is a fact. I'm not saying or implying he did anything wrong. My point is I don't think Belichick likes it when his players make headlines for this type of stuff.

Stallworth spent time in jail for manslaughter. . . .

 

[Jimke]

Edelman is on the bottom of the totem pole as a wide receiver.
Four catches regular season? Whether he stays depends on whether
the Patriots draft or sign a return specialist.

 

[reflexblue]

I don't understand why people want to get rid of edelman. This reminds me of last Sep early Oct when a group here wanted him cut for no apparent reason. Shortly there after he played great on both sides of the ball, and that group of posters looked foolish.

 

[patfanken]

A) I agree that Koutouvides could beat out White (the Super Bowl starter). I just don't think that this will happen. I think that White is one of the very best at this position.

You could be right, its probably a matter of White's expertise on ST's vs Koutouvides potential as a coverage LB + his ST's skills. But would you agree to the overall point that we don't need BOTH players and only one will make the roster?

B) There have been 5 arguments that seem to yield you conculsion that Edelman is our 3rd most valuable WR.

I have NEVER said in ANY post that I thought Edelman was our 3rd most valuable WR. What I DID say was I see his receiving role as Welker's back up. I would see the #3 WR's role as being the other WR outside the hash. The Ocho/Stallworth. But the number is meaningless since whomever it is, is still just going to be the 5th option most of the time.

1) Edelman is our punt returner, and a good one. I don't think that Belichick allocates a roster spot to a returner. Otherwise, Hobbs and/or Tate would still be here.

Tate had just ONE punt return in his NE career. Hobbs had none. Both were KO returners for us. So I don't get that point? Edelman has never been seen as JUST a PR. In fact I don't think BB has ever kept JUST a PR

2) Edelman is our best nickel, our best free safety, or at minimum good enough to be a backup defensive back (with an offseason of practice). This is easy enough to test. Just see how many defensive reps Edelman gets in practice and in the preseason.

I would challenge you to find where I have said that. The only superlative I've ever associated with Edelman on defense is that he seemed to be one of the best tacklers among the DBs A coach's dream. One of the few DB's you see these days that form up to make a hit, rather than just throw his body at the ball carrier and hope for the best. (which we see too often btw). But I digress....

Now I think that, if he just played defense, he COULD develop enough to play in the league in some position. But I never thought that he SHOULD switch. I think he's going to be a fine slot receiver in this league someday....for someone.

3) Edelman is by far our best slot receiver, and this is worth a roster spot.

I've never said that either. I would say he is our best BACK UP slot receiver, and is worth the roster spot, unless someone else (say Gonsales) can prove he is better at it.

4) Edelman has been valuable in the past at positions where sufficient depth didn't exist, so he has earned a future roster spot.

Actually I DISAGREE with this. I would say that you keep or let go Edelman strictly on the basis of his play at receiver. The only time the defensive component should play a part is as a last tie breaker

As we make decisions about the bottom of the roster, Edelman will always be found to be more valuable that at least one other. Edelman is good enough on the various special teams units to be active.

Well, MG, BB is showing this off season the kind of importance he is placing on special teams this season. There will be plenty of competition this TC between established special teams aces for roster spots. So the fact that Edelman has proven that he is a better than average PR, a willing at least KR, a competent coverage guy, as well as the back up slot receiver.....can't hurt his chances

I'm not sure, MG where you got those "5 arguments" from, but my point all along is that Edelman is at no greater risk to lose his roster spot than ANY WR not named Lloyd or Welker. And if anything his chances are higher because of his special teams play across the board.....as it is with every regular position player who also plays special teams.

NOT playing special teams (if they indeed don't ) will make it that much harder for guys like Ocho, Branch, and Gonsales to ultimately make it. Because ultimately we are talking about the #5 option. I think you have to offer more than that to make the team

 

[Calciumee]

To much of a 'Patriot' player!

Just seems happy to play! Also, he isn't going to be a game changer on D, but he is a good tackler!

I can't remember which QB is was, but his tackle on about the 2 yard line on an agile QB was very good! Tried to juke him, and JE had him!

 

[pdangle]

He's not going anywhere this season. A 'B' at 4 positions beats out 4 'B+s' at one.

 

[Gronkandez]

What a strange life you must lead, keeping track of the consistency special teams arguments on a message board.

1) I am a mod here. One the major aspects of this for me is the opening of threads and the stimulating of discussion. Sometimes I push arguments when I believe them or not. Over time I may very well argue both sides of issues. Live with or not. That is your choice.


4) With regard to Edelman, I have posted many, many posts THIS season suggesting that he was a lock as a STer, along with Slater. I was the one that, even last week, suggested that Edelman should have a position because of his value as a punt returner.
After reading the discussion from many posters, I was convinced that I had overvalued the marginal contribution of punt returners.

I then decided to discuss to post a thread about Edelman. I don't see why what I say is a big deal for you. I'm not here to win debating points. I am here to share my views, listen to the views of others and hopefully to understand the team better.

5) Some have a different analysis than I do. They simply decide how many wide receiver spots we will have (almost always 6 including one for a STer like Slater) and then view the competition for the 6 roster spots. I suspect that half the threads in the last week has been about choosing which 6 receivers we will keep. Since this is obviously an issue of interest, I gave it a different spin.

AND JUST BY THE WAY
I strongly disagree with your position that Edelman is more likely to make this team than Branch. But then, that is my position.

You think it unreasonable to consider a top gunner and backup db like Cole to be likely to make the team because he only signed a 1-year contract. Well, I believe the same about White. Again we disagree.

I think it silly at best to think that Johnson is a lock to make the team because he has reduced his salary to $1M. I did err in neglecting to mention him. In the arithmetic of most, there are many competing for the #3, #4, and #5 wide receiver spots. Some consider Edelman a near lock. I don't.

WHAT THE EMOTION IS ALL ABOUT

Edelman has been a great, great, story. He has been a perfect utility player. He is the player we all would like to see make the team. We've had many, many binkies like Edelman over the years. They don't all retire as patriots.

Edelman has filled critical roles as an emergency WR and as an emergency DB. The answer is not necessarily to keep Edelman. Belichick answer is to get much more depth at those positions.

.

:agree:

Seems to be a sensitive issue.

 

[serifyn]

Having players like Edelman on your team separate the good teams from the great teams, The Patriots are stacked at every level with Developmental players and low risk high reward veterans, you have your Starters who obviously make your roster and then you have a couple of guys like Edelman and Slater who from a casual fans perspective dont have a whole lot to offer their teams, but when you get situations last year, where WR and CB depth were not that great, they can step right in, while another player who was perhaps brought in off the street because of an injury would have absolutely no chemistry with their teammates.

While Edelman doesn't appear to do anything outside of punt returning and special teams all particularly that well, the fact that he can step in and be an adequete replacement at so many position seals his spot on the roster.

So do i think Edelman's position is more secure than fringe starters like Branch, Ochocinco, Stallworth or Gonzales? Yes, i do.