Is DT still a need?

[cstjohn17]

Before Wilfork signed I was focused on DT as a huge need, round 1 possibility.

With Kelly and Wilfork in the fold I am not so sure (I assume the Patriots medical staff has provided some confidence towards their 2014 outlook).

Maybe interior OL or even DE start to become bigger targets.

 

[upstater1]

Yes, Vince is 32 yrs old. Draft a DT now.

There are plenty of good ones available, if not in the first round.

My sense of the draft boards right now is that Jernigan and Hageman are rising up beyond the Patriots' reach, whereas the TEs and WRs are dropping. The guards are dropping as well.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Yes, Vince is 32 yrs old. Draft a DT now.

There are plenty of good ones available, if not in the first round.

My sense of the draft boards right now is that Jernigan and Hageman are rising up beyond the Patriots' reach, whereas the TEs and WRs are dropping. The guards are dropping as well.

The other question is what the Patriots see in Siliga, Armstead, and Jones.

 

[JMC00]

Yes. But a DT that can also play DE. My top 3 would be Tuitt, Hageman, and Easley.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

The other question is what the Patriots see in Siliga, Armstead, and Jones.

If we're keeping them all - and if AA is a DT not a DE - we're full. Those three, Vince, Kelly, that's 5 which is the max we keep.

I agree with upstater1 that a young one would be nice but, like at WR, unless they have decided some of the young players from last year can't play there's simply no room.

 

[JMC00]

The other question is what the Patriots see in Siliga, Armstead, and Jones.

I think right now they see decent or maybe even quality depth. Siliga and Jones at 60-70% of the snaps and the Pats are worried but at 30-35% Pats probably feel good.

Armstead is still an unknown but if he plays anywhere close to what people think his potential is then you are looking at probably the #3 DT who could play some DE and could be one of the Pats starting DT in 2015. But the Armstead talk is all just opinion right now, we'll start getting a more clearer picture on him during training camp.

 

[Sciz]

I know people are impressed with Chris Jones' 6 sacks, but other than that his pass rush production was lacking and he was awful against the run. I'd have no complaints with drafting a pass rushing DT to knock him off the roster. I think both Kelly and Armstead could contribute as interior pass rushers, but it's hard to know what the team sees out of those two guys right now. At this point, I'd say to focus on other positions early, but to add a guy with some athleticism on the third day and give him (and any UDFAs) a chance at the #5 job.

 

[patfanken]

This is an interesting question. I think Armstead is the key to a lot of the questions. A lot will depend on how the Pats view him. Is he really a penetrating DT. Could he be a 4-3 DE? Are the Pats happy with where his is in his off field conditioning. Is he training for speed or is he bulking up? Based on how these questions are answered WILL definitely affect how we proceed.

Vince is coming back. Most likely he will used as a situational run stopper, and short yardage/GL situations. However what is needed are upgrades in players who can push the pocket and create inside pressure. Of all the skills that are in most demand, people who can create inside pressure are the most valuable and thus in demand by EVERY team.

That's why I doubt very much Donald and Hageman won't be within ten picks of the Pats when they are taken. Despite the fact that both have questions about them (Donald's size, and Hageman's motor). The fact that both are explosive interior DLman make them hot commodities.

So when it comes time for the Pats to pick, it will depend on who's there and how they are valued. Nix doesn't seem to be an answer unless we cut Wilfolk and go to a 3-4. Is Tuitt explosive enough to pick at that point. Which of the TE's will be available. Is there a OL, DE, LB or S worthy of a pick.

All I know is that with Kelly and Wilfolk both well over 30, and CJones, Siliga, and Villano all limited athletes, Plus all the questions we have with Armstead; we need some young top level talent at the DT/DE position.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Yes. It was a need before the Wilfork fiasco, and still is.

Wilfork, Tommy Kelly, Armond Armstead.... these 3 guys COMBINED didn't play 10 games last year.


Chris Jones had 6 sacks last year BTW, which is pretty good for a DT who only played 13 games. Pats might use Wilfork as the run stopper and CJones in obvious passing situations.

 

[Wilfork#75]

As I posted in a thread on the main board, I don't see how the Wilfork extension changes anything in regards to draft needs. We have bodies and the potential for a good group but every single guy on the roster has question marks.

Wilfork and Kelly are both ageing and coming off major injuries, who knows how they will come back? If they can return to their previous form then great, but I don't think you can rely on that. Even if they do play well they are both only short term answers at DT. We still need long term replacements for them and I don't know if we will have the chance to draft the kind of DT talent potentially available this year if we wait a year or two.

Chris Jones, Sealver Siliga and Joe Vellano all played well above expectations last year but can we really expect that to continue? After going undrafted in 2011 Siliga has been cut twice and traded once so was the potential he flashed in 2013 a fluke or can he continue that level of play? Chris Jones was a 2013 6th round pick that was cut twice before sticking with the Pats. He really stepped up when we needed him and put up some nice stats. He was poor against the run though and the question is can he be anything more than a sub rusher? Vellano played admirably in 2013 but he just has physical limitations that he can't overcome. He doesn't have the size to be effective against the run in the NFL and plays more on heart than talent. He's the type of guy I love having in camp because he will work hard and push people, but if he is on the final 53 I don't think DT will be in a very good position.

Armond Armstead is a guy I think we all have a lot of hope for but he hasn't shown us anything to give us confidence he can contribute at the NFL level. He was never a great college player and was all projection rather than production. He then missed a year with a medical issue, had a falling out with USC, went undrafted and played in Canada for a year. He was great in the CFL for a year showing a lot of potential but once again missed the entire year in 2013 with a medical issue. As far as I'm concerned anything we can get out or Armstead will be a bonus and expecting anything out of him would be a mistake. And finally Marcus Forston hasn't shown any indication that he is a capable NFL DT (and that is coming from one of his biggest fans during the draft).

IF all goes well with these guys, and I mean IF, we have the potential for a strong group. Unfortunately the reality is its unlikely both Wilfork and Kelly return to their previous levels of play. Jones, Vellano and Siliga all have a chance to regress and we might never get anything out of Armstead. And that is before taking into account injuries which will happen. I think DT is in the top tier of needs for this team both to solidify our short term and build our long term success.

I don't necessarily think DT is our #1 need but its certainly near the top. My biggest reason for wanting a 1st round DT is I think this year is the best combination of need, value, and fit. I don't see any great fits at the end of the 1st round for our other biggest needs. Other than Ebron I don't rate any of the TE's as 1st rounders. I'm not a huge fan of spending a 1st round pick on an interior OL and I hate this DE class. I think there is a chance that there will be at least 1 highly ranked DT that would be a great fit that would normally be drafted much higher in other drafts.

I love Donald but he will almost surely be gone by #29 and I think it would be a mistake to trade up that high. I'm not a huge Jernigan fan but he would be great value at 29. My top two guys are Ra'Shede Hageman and Louis Nix, both very different players but both potentially elite at what they do. If either of them are available that would certainly be the direction I go. I think now would be the perfect time to add a talented DT because they won't be forced into action straight away and will be given time to develop. They will also have the chance to learn under two great veterans in Wilfork and Kelly. If we wait and try and fill this need in a year or two we may be forced to rely heavily on a rookie and we may not have that veteran leadership.

 

[cstjohn17]

Yes, Vince is 32 yrs old. Draft a DT now.

There are plenty of good ones available, if not in the first round.

My sense of the draft boards right now is that Jernigan and Hageman are rising up beyond the Patriots' reach, whereas the TEs and WRs are dropping. The guards are dropping as well.

I agree, I am thinking the draft becomes BPA at DE,DT, G, C, S, TE and maybe WR because of how deep the draft is.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...lIMnNBQ3FNQXNhc0IweWJ6bUE&usp=drive_web#gid=8

 

[manxman2601]

Looking at the number of defensive linemen on the roster on the 1st of Semptember the last three years:

2013: 9
2012: 11
2011: 10

Those most likely to be on the roster are:

Vince Wilfork
Tommy Kelly
Chandler Jones
Rob Ninkovich
Armond Armstead
Sealver Siliga
Michael Buchanan
Chris Jones (although I agree with Sciz that he's no guarantee)

On the bubble

Joe Vellano
Jake Bequette

That's eight near certainties for the roster which allows probably two or three draftees/free agents to be added. I think a first round DT and second round DE (or visa versa) is as likely as any other possibility right now.

 

[manxman2601]

I agree, I am thinking the draft becomes BPA at DE,DT, G, C, S, TE and maybe WR because of how deep the draft is.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...lIMnNBQ3FNQXNhc0IweWJ6bUE&usp=drive_web#gid=8

I wouldn't be surprised to see Blount and Wendell brought back in fairly quick order now, particularly Blount with the running back options narrowed to just him. If they don't bring Blount back, they pretty much have to draft two Running backs.

 

[manxman2601]

I still like the idea of adding Tuitt who, like Armstead can double up at DT or DE. That offers much more flexibility than adding a Dee Ford or Scott Chrichton would who are very limited to my mind.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I don't see how the Wilfork extension changes anything in regards to draft needs.

This!

Wilfork and Kelly are old and have been dealing with injuries, the interior D-line is the foundation, and we need some young studs in there.

Vote for Aaron Donald this Spring for a new and improved D-line!

 

[Wilfork#75]

Looking at the number of defensive linemen on the roster on the 1st of Semptember the last three years:

2013: 9
2012: 11
2011: 10

Those most likely to be on the roster are:

Vince Wilfork
Tommy Kelly
Chandler Jones
Rob Ninkovich
Armond Armstead
Sealver Siliga
Michael Buchanan
Chris Jones (although I agree with Sciz that he's no guarantee)

On the bubble

Joe Vellano
Jake Bequette

That's eight near certainties for the roster which allows probably two or three draftees/free agents to be added. I think a first round DT and second round DE (or visa versa) is as likely as any other possibility right now.

The other thing to remember is that injuries are nearly inevitable during camp as well. Right now we're not looking to build the final 53 we're trying to build the best roster for camp in order to get to that final 53 in the end. We can't go in to camp 10,11,12 deep on the D-line hoping they are our guys, we need more depth to push other guys and account for injuries. A lot of that will come from free agent cuts after June 1 and UDFA's but I certainly think there is enough room to add a few rookie DL as you pointed out.

DE is the most frustrating position in this draft for me. There is just no depth there and guys will be overdrafted because of need. Outside of Ealy at 29 there really isn't anyone in the first 3 rounds that I would have much interest in at their current value. I'm really hoping there are a couple of decent options that become available from team cuts after June 1 because we missed out on the first wave of free agents. In terms of pure need I probably think DE is #1 along with TE, but as with TE I don't really see the value of going there in the 1st round.

 

[patchick]

I agree, I am thinking the draft becomes BPA at DE,DT, G, C, S, TE and maybe WR because of how deep the draft is.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...lIMnNBQ3FNQXNhc0IweWJ6bUE&usp=drive_web#gid=8

I seem to be an outlier on this, but do you really not see LB as a significant need?

 

[manxman2601]

I seem to be an outlier on this, but do you really not see LB as a significant need?

You are certainly not an outlier. They need to add one for sure, and probably two. Particularly if they're going to double up on assignment: a LB/S for example or a LB/DE maybe.

 

[Wilfork#75]

I seem to be an outlier on this, but do you really not see LB as a significant need?

I see it as a secondary need and something I would certainly address but not early on (unless CJ Mosley falls). I think we can get a capable guy or two in the 3rd/4th/5th round range that can come in and contribute. I think there are quite a few options depending on what we are looking for and I know quite a few people on here really like guys like Christian Jones, Jordan Tripp and Marcus Smith. I personally prefer to go the football players over the athletes and really like Max Bullough and Jordan Zumwalt. Although the athletic guy that I really like is Kevin Pierre-Louis from BC. So I think its certainly an area that will be addressed, how high though is debatable.

Edit:

I may also be delusional thinking he has a chance to contribute but I would love to see Adrian Wilson come back as a backup LBer/SS. I think he would add a lot of versatility not only on the field but also to the roster composition.

 

[manxman2601]

I see it as a secondary need and something I would certainly address but not early on (unless CJ Mosley falls). I think we can get a capable guy or two in the 3rd/4th/5th round range that can come in and contribute. I think there are quite a few options depending on what we are looking for and I know quite a few people on here really like guys like Christian Jones, Jordan Tripp and Marcus Smith. I personally prefer to go the football players over the athletes and really like Max Bullough and Jordan Zumwalt. Although the athletic guy that I really like is Kevin Pierre-Louis from BC. So I think its certainly an area that will be addressed, how high though is debatable.

Edit:

I may also be delusional thinking he has a chance to contribute but I would love to see Adrian Wilson come back as a backup LBer/SS. I think he would add a lot of versatility not only on the field but also to the roster composition.

I'm with you on Kevin Pierre-Louis. With him, the cornerbacks, Adrian Wilson and Duron Harmon we've got enough cover in that other safety position. and of course KPL is an athletic linebacker also so excellent cover and special teams versatility too.

I'm really looking at versatility at the moment. KPL offers OLB/safety versatility. Tuitt offers DE/DT versatility. Having seen Ford drop into coverage well, I like his SLB/DE versatility. And this is where I like Jordan Tripp too. He has the athleticism to play WLB but I particularly like him as a MLB and his 6'3" size means that he'll be able to play SLB. If Tripp bulks up to 245lb plus without losing his athleticism, I think he can be tremendous.

Edit: And I'm with you on Adrian Wilson. Now that that second safety spot can be played much closer to the LOS, I think Wilson has a lot to offer there.