Inside Linebacker

[jmt57]

WEEI's Christopher Price profiles two versatile ILBs.

It Is What It Is Rating the Roster, Training Camp Edition (Part 2)

63. Linebacker/fullback Thomas Williams: Williams spent most of the regular season on the practice squad, but was activated before the playoff game to the Ravens. The 6-foot-1, 240-pound Williams, an inside linebacker, does have some positional versatility — he’s seen some time at fullback, and considering the fact that New England doesn’t have a full-time fullback currently on the roster, even his occasional presence there would improve his chances of making the final roster.

62. Linebacker Eric Alexander: A special teamer who has managed to stick around for seven seasons in New England, Alexander is a testament to persistence. Signed as a rookie free agent out of LSU in 2004, he’s either been waived or released three times by always managed to find his way back.

 

[jmt57]

Price also profiles Tyrone McKenzie.

It Is What It Is Rating the Roster, Training Camp Edition (Part 3)

54. Linebacker Tyrone McKenzie: McKenzie, who suffered a bad knee injury during rookie minicamp and was lost for the entire 2009 season, will be tossed into a great positional battle at inside linebacker opposite Jerod Mayo, one that includes Gary Guyton and Brandon Spikes. Considering he was on the shelf all last season, I imagine that the Patriots want to ease the 6-foot-2, 240-pound McKenzie into the mix gently — he was running with the No. 2 defense during spring practices. But if he has a good training camp, he could be right there with Spikes and Guyton once September rolls around.

=====

In several threads the subject of moving an ILB such as McKenzie or Guyon outside has been brought up, and the consensus has been that it could work in a 4-3 but not in the 3-4.

In another thread today, the subject of McKenzie came up in regards to the two ILB spots. It was pointed out by italia44 - a forum member whom I long ago came to the conclusion has far more football knowledge than I do - that the two ILB spots are not interchangeable, nor are the four ILBs.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-idle-thoughts-going-camping.html#post1871758

Spikes and McKenzie are not competing to be next to Mayo.McKenzie and Mayo play the same position......Spikes doesn't.

Mayo and Spikes works,but not Mayo and McKenzie,
unless your going to play Mayo out of position like with Guyton,last year,What's the point of that?

The pats don't generally flip-flop their ILB's to adjust to the strong-side TE.With Mayo back at his natural spot.....Guyton and McKenzie are a no go at the Tedy Bruschi ILB spot....too small.I think Spikes will work there.

McKenzie and Mayo.....inside the 10 yd line?....maybe.I wouldn't try McKenzie at LOLB,either,we have bigger and better options in Ninkovich and Cunningham,already.

He's learning fast at ILB,no need to f-em up or ****** his progress.....at least that's how I see it.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...thoughts-going-camping-page2.html#post1872391

my point s that you keep comparing McKenzie and Spikes,as if they're interchangeable......they're not.They play different ILB positions.

Spikes won't become Ted Johnson and McKenzie won't become Tedy Bruschi.Mayo pairs with Spikes,but not with McKenzie.Inside linebackers are not interchangeable,no matter how much you want them to be.If Spikes doesn't work out,they may have to go back to Mayo and Guyton,but they're not going to go to Mayo and McKenzie.

So,just keep Spikes and McKenzie,separate.....not equal or interchangeable.

Any of the other strong X and O folks with an opinion on this? It's the first I have read of McKenzie being portrayed in this manner - I had thought of he and Spikes competing with each other to play alongside Mayo - but italia44's assessment seems to make sense. Any thoughts? Agree or disagree?

 

[Ring 6]

Price also profiles Tyrone McKenzie.

It Is What It Is Rating the Roster, Training Camp Edition (Part 3)

54. Linebacker Tyrone McKenzie: McKenzie, who suffered a bad knee injury during rookie minicamp and was lost for the entire 2009 season, will be tossed into a great positional battle at inside linebacker opposite Jerod Mayo, one that includes Gary Guyton and Brandon Spikes. Considering he was on the shelf all last season, I imagine that the Patriots want to ease the 6-foot-2, 240-pound McKenzie into the mix gently — he was running with the No. 2 defense during spring practices. But if he has a good training camp, he could be right there with Spikes and Guyton once September rolls around.

=====

In several threads the subject of moving an ILB such as McKenzie or Guyon outside has been brought up, and the consensus has been that it could work in a 4-3 but not in the 3-4.

In another thread today, the subject of McKenzie came up in regards to the two ILB spots. It was pointed out by italia44 - a forum member whom I long ago came to the conclusion has far more football knowledge than I do - that the two ILB spots are not interchangeable, nor are the four ILBs.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-idle-thoughts-going-camping.html#post1871758


http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...thoughts-going-camping-page2.html#post1872391



Any of the other strong X and O folks with an opinion on this? It's the first I have read of McKenzie being portrayed in this manner - I had thought of he and Spikes competing with each other to play alongside Mayo - but italia44's assessment seems to make sense. Any thoughts? Agree or disagree?

My 2 cents.
Since we have never flip-flopped ILBs to the strength of the formation, our ILBs are aligned as LILB and RILB, and on any given play either is the S or W, as opposed to designating one to play on the strong side and one on the weak.
Bruschi commented on this last week, if someone can find it, (I imagine you could if anyone could JMT57).
My experience is that in the NFL it is closer to 50/50 that the left or right is strong than that one is almost always (as in the 70s-80s when the defensive left was predominantly the strong side).
So, my opinion is that yes, the ILBs are interchangable.

 

[mgteich]

My question is which inside linebackers do you want on the field on running downs, on third and 4, on third and long?

Are they really the same? I don't think so. I want Guyton on the field on passing downs.

The really good thing is that we will start the season with four solid options at ILB. This is a MUCH better situation than in 2009.

 

[Destroyer]

My question is which inside linebackers do you want on the field on running downs, on third and 4, on third and long?

Are they really the same? I don't think so. I want Guyton on the field on passing downs.

The really good thing is that we will start the season with four solid options at ILB. This is a MUCH better situation than in 2009.

For sure, I can't see Spikes being above average in coverage and being used in that capacity. I see him as a two down linebacker, then getting the hell out of there on pure passing downs unless he's being used as a blitzer or covering an underneath route with a zone assignment.

 

[Ring 6]

For sure, I can't see Spikes being above average in coverage and being used in that capacity. I see him as a two down linebacker, then getting the hell out of there on pure passing downs unless he's being used as a blitzer or covering an underneath route with a zone assignment.

I havent seen enough of Spikes to grade him in coverage, but I really think this is a misconception born from his 40 time.
What I have seen of him at Florida showed him making a fair amount of plays in coverage and he good in his drops.
What I see out of Spikes is the head of a LB. A true 'born to be' LB diagnoses the play naturally and finds the ball. (A brings a thump when he arrives) That kind of guy is fine in coverage, and we aren't talking about getting 30 yards deep in a Tampa2, we are talking about a reasonably small zone to cover.
An ILB playing zone coverage has very little to do with speed. They take a drop that they have plenty of time to get to, but has everything to do with being conscious of where the receivers are coming from and going to within the zone.
I'm not saying Spikes will be good in coverage,but the real traits that I see as important to it, are the ones he has, and the 40 times isnt real relevant.

 

[Ring 6]

My 2 cents.
Bruschi commented on this last week, if someone can find it, (I imagine you could if anyone could JMT57).
.

of course since you already posted it in this thread my comment is both correct and pointless

 

[italia44]

Thanks for your kind words,JMT57......I'm lurking here a lot as I'm disabled and have a lot of hi-tech gizmos at my disposal.I have 2 DVR's for my TV and a seperate Hard Drive on my hand built 'puter,just for previous patriot games.

Strangley,I like to keep games that are losses,more than blowout wins(go figure).I don't like to jump in to threads that often,but I have such a passion for this team,that sometimes I can't help myself when posters start talking about moving linebackers around like they were chess pieces.

I particularly love great linebacker play and even more........linebacker design,in the 3-4.

I went back and looked at Mayo's play in his rookie year and Harris for the jets.....these a 2 superior lb's......however,Mayo is best at the WILB....this is his natural position,like Harris.I understand why we had to move him,last year,as Guyton cannot play the strong side....too bad,it really hurt us.

I'm obsessed with 2 things this year:
1.Get Mayo back in position,at all cost
2.Get the RDE position stabilized.

It's not the OLB's or even the pass rush,it's the interior that needs to be fixed....the rest will fall into place.

I looked over some games of the Ravens.....you can not move that front 3......that is what makes them a great defense.We can be almost as good with Wilfork,if we have a RDE that is bigger and is able to get some penetration.Jarvus Green and Mike Wright could not do this.....too light. I believe BB see this,and will trade speed for bulk,to keep the constant double team off of Vince.I'm hoping it's Warren....he's got the size and he's smart.

I love Tyrone McKenzie......however,he's too small to play next to Mayo at SILB.Like Harris,Mayo needs to attack the gap and blitz....that's his strength.If someone can just play 2-gap at RDE,then you just need a smart set of players at SILB and Right Safety(Spikes and Chung).THis will be our base defense.

McKenzie and Guyton are gravy on top....but if we can get that 2 down base defense set,then you will not be able to come back on this team.....not with that offense.

 

[Ring 6]

Thanks for your kind words,JMT57......I'm lurking here a lot as I'm disabled and have a lot of hi-tech gizmos at my disposal.I have 2 DVR's for my TV and a seperate Hard Drive on my hand built 'puter,just for previous patriot games.

Strangley,I like to keep games that are losses,more than blowout wins(go figure).I don't like to jump in to threads that often,but I have such a passion for this team,that sometimes I can't help myself when posters start talking about moving linebackers around like they were chess pieces.

I particularly love great linebacker play and even more........linebacker design,in the 3-4.

I went back and looked at Mayo's play in his rookie year and Harris for the jets.....these a 2 superior lb's......however,Mayo is best at the WILB....this is his natural position,like Harris.I understand why we had to move him,last year,as Guyton cannot play the strong side....too bad,it really hurt us.

I'm obsessed with 2 things this year:
1.Get Mayo back in position,at all cost
2.Get the RDE position stabilized.

It's not the OLB's or even the pass rush,it's the interior that needs to be fixed....the rest will fall into place.

I looked over some games of the Ravens.....you can not move that front 3......that is what makes them a great defense.We can be almost as good with Wilfork,if we have a RDE that is bigger and is able to get some penetration.Jarvus Green and Mike Wright could not do this.....too light. I believe BB see this,and will trade speed for bulk,to keep the constant double team off of Vince.I'm hoping it's Warren....he's got the size and he's smart.

I love Tyrone McKenzie......however,he's too small to play next to Mayo at SILB.Like Harris,Mayo needs to attack the gap and blitz....that's his strength.If someone can just play 2-gap at RDE,then you just need a smart set of players at SILB and Right Safety(Spikes and Chung).THis will be our base defense.

McKenzie and Guyton are gravy on top....but if we can get that 2 down base defense set,then you will not be able to come back on this team.....not with that offense.

I'm curious about what you saw on that tape.
Are you saying that you saw Mayo switching sides and lining up on the strongside every play. I dont have the games to go back to, only my memory and comments such as Bruschis but I do not remember us ever having the ILBs switch sides based upon formation.
Are you saying that you want Mayo on the defensive right side because it is more likely to be the weak side, or stating that BBs practice is to have the ILB switch sides based on offensive alignment?

 

[italia44]

I'm curious about what you saw on that tape.
Are you saying that you saw Mayo switching sides and lining up on the strongside every play. I dont have the games to go back to, only my memory and comments such as Bruschis but I do not remember us ever having the ILBs switch sides based upon formation.
Are you saying that you want Mayo on the defensive right side because it is more likely to be the weak side, or stating that BBs practice is to have the ILB switch sides based on offensive alignment?

No.....The patriots don't switch.....it's less confusing to use LILB and RILB.Mayo should be at LILB,regardless to where the TE lines up.

 

[Ring 6]

No.....The patriots don't switch.....it's less confusing to use LILB and RILB.Mayo should be at LILB,regardless to where the TE lines up.

OK. So wouldnt ILBs have to be interchangable?
I mean we don't chose who is the WILB or SILB, in essence the offense does.
If you are saying:
Mayo is a WILB
Spikes is a SILB
McKenzie is a WILB
If you put Mayo and Spikes on the field together, I put my strength on Mayos side and both are out of position??

Essentially the have the same duties as well, since teams run as often to the weak side as the strong side these days. I dont think we can have any control over which ILB is playside and which is backside. (Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are saying you want Mayo backside?)
Ultimately any ILB has to control the area between the outside of the C to the inside of the T first. So if they are playside they have to step up into the G area, then scrape down the line if it goes wider. If they are backside they have to step up into the cutback area first (actually more like the C area than the G in practice) to make sure there is no misdirection before pursuing.
Anyone playing ILB for us has to do all of those, and really we can't control which will do more or which.
Do you see it differently than that? If so, how so?

 

[Ring 6]

No.....The patriots don't switch.....it's less confusing to use LILB and RILB.Mayo should be at LILB,regardless to where the TE lines up.

Clarification?
Are you saying he was on the Left last year and the Right the year before, and you would like him on the right, or vice versa.
I think the split between strong right and strong left (defensive side) is close to 50/50 but still a bit more strong left.
Probably a minor point, but I don't want to misconstrue your statement.

 

[bigsky]

I think a surprise at the ILB position or one of the last 3 roster spots is free agent Dane Fletcher. This kid is really tough, excellent speed and quickness, an unbelievable work ethic and an overall quality individual. He has made some nice plays in camp and is the type of kid that will make the most of any opportunity. Keep an eye out for him!

 

[Ring 6]

I think a surprise at the ILB position or one of the last 3 roster spots is free agent Dane Fletcher. This kid is really tough, excellent speed and quickness, an unbelievable work ethic and an overall quality individual. He has made some nice plays in camp and is the type of kid that will make the most of any opportunity. Keep an eye out for him!

Welcome to the board Mr. Fletcher, best of luck to your son

 

[italia44]

Clarification?
Are you saying he was on the Left last year and the Right the year before, and you would like him on the right, or vice versa.
I think the split between strong right and strong left (defensive side) is close to 50/50 but still a bit more strong left.
Probably a minor point, but I don't want to misconstrue your statement.

First.....Mayo played RILB,last year.....only because Guyton(who replaced him when he was injured) can't play the RILB spot......why?....
because that RILB is generally on the TE side(strong).

The LILB,where Mayo starred as a rookie is also generally known as the "mike".......he gets the defensive signals and changes the alignment,accordingly.That's who the QB is pointing at,to identify the "mike" for his offensive lineman.The "mike" may move left or right,front to back....whatever....he's still the "mike".

In the base 3-4.....this is almost always the LILB,he's better against the run.In the base 3-4,your RILB is usually bigger and has more coverage responsibilities than the "mike".

Again,in the base,the RILB has more to worry about because he's on the side where a TE is on his side and the ROLB is rushing on pass plays.This gives him a wider zone of responsibility.(think tedy bruschi and calvin pace,as opposed to mayo and harris).

The offense may move the TE or they may move to a balanced set,with a TE on each side.It doesn't change the fact that you want to have one ILB,who is better against the run and one who is better in coverage.

 

[Ring 6]

First.....Mayo played RILB,last year.....only because Guyton(who replaced him when he was injured) can't play the RILB spot......why?....
because that RILB is generally on the TE side(strong).

The LILB,where Mayo starred as a rookie is also generally known as the "mike".......he gets the defensive signals and changes the alignment,accordingly.That's who the QB is pointing at,to identify the "mike" for his offensive lineman.The "mike" may move left or right,front to back....whatever....he's still the "mike".

In the base 3-4.....this is almost always the LILB,he's better against the run.In the base 3-4,your RILB is usually bigger and has more coverage responsibilities than the "mike".

Again,in the base,the RILB has more to worry about because he's on the side where a TE is on his side and the ROLB is rushing on pass plays.This gives him a wider zone of responsibility.(think tedy bruschi and calvin pace,as opposed to mayo and harris).

The offense may move the TE or they may move to a balanced set,with a TE on each side.It doesn't change the fact that you want to have one ILB,who is better against the run and one who is better in coverage.

I'm confused because traditionally the TE lines up on the offensive right, the defensive left.
And if the offense can put the TE on either side, then the ILBs would seem to have to be interchangable. What am I missing?
If you put a LB who is good on the TE side on the right side and one who is not on the left, I'm just going to line my TE up on your left every play.
Maybe I'm missing something but your desciption invites me to put 2 of your players out of position.
I'm also confused that you have the TE on the Dright and the rolb, solb, rushing the QB. Arent we more likely to rush the WOLB so that area is less threatened by receivers?

 

[bigsky]

Dane Fletcher is not my son but watched him thru his college career. I know it's tough to make the team as a rookie free agent but this kid has all the tools. My point is -keep an eye on him. If you remember Steve Nelson, this kid is a clone. He is just an all around quality guy.

 

[mgteich]

There is stiff competition for the 9th LB spot, if there is one. Fletcher must beat out Murrell, Williams, Alexander and anyone Belichick brings in through free agency, waiver or trade. As Andy has pointed out, at this point we have two starters (Banta-Cain and Cunningham) and two backups (Ninkovich and Woods). We could certainly use upgrades, but more depth is not needed.

My guess is that 9th OLB spot will be filled by Burgess or an acquisition. However, I can certainly understand if that position is used for a special teamer (or a player like Williams who can play a couple of roles) as it has been in the past. I strongly believe that Murrell, Alexander or Williams all figure to add more value to the 2010 team than Fletcher.

The place for Fletcher in 2010 is on a Practice Squad.

Dane Fletcher is not my son but watched him thru his college career. I know it's tough to make the team as a rookie free agent but this kid has all the tools. My point is -keep an eye on him. If you remember Steve Nelson, this kid is a clone. He is just an all around quality guy.

 

[Ring 6]

Dane Fletcher is not my son but watched him thru his college career. I know it's tough to make the team as a rookie free agent but this kid has all the tools. My point is -keep an eye on him. If you remember Steve Nelson, this kid is a clone. He is just an all around quality guy.

I was just kidding with you since you are new to the board, and the first guy ive seen suggest Fletcher could make the team.

 

[bigsky]

I am a long time Pats fan that used to live in RI and went to Bryant University where I used to attend a lot of camp practices back in the day. I am now a Bozeman, Montana native. I understand Dane Fletcher is a long shot and probably will end up on the practice squad. But again, keep an eye on him. I think they have a special kid in this guy. You won't find a guy that works harder! He was a Buchanan Award candidate but what hurt him was a case of swine flu and mono last season and had to miss a couple of games. Despite this, he did have awesome stats. He put up excellent numbers in his pro day workout for scouts prior to the draft.

I used to really like Steve Nelson and Dane is that type of player.