if pats and brady win another ring..

[Ring 6]

Its not that they can't, its that they haven't. It becomes tough to argue that you are the greatest when you are losing at the end of each season. Like I said earlier, one win and all that will be forgotten but until then the most recent memory of Brady that we are going to have is going to be yet another disappointing loss.

Then there is no greatest. Thats my point, Montana had 7 playoff losses, including 3 straight 1 and dones, Brady has had 5, and you make it sound like there are QBs out there who won it every year, just because they were clutch.
Manning has lost in the playoffs every year but one (and a couple he didnt even make it) has a 9-10 record and lost in the playoffs 10 of the 11 times he made it. Marino lost in the playoffs every year he made it, Elway lost in the playoffs 7 consecutive times over 13 years, not even making the playoffs 6 other times before winning twice.
You just have no argument here.

 

[TealSox]

Well you could, but then you would be wrong. And that still doesnt add up.

I'm fine being wrong by your standards. Enjoy!

 

[Ring 6]

We just look at this differently. I just don't see the same QB in big games. I think if he had some of these big games his status among the greatest QB's wouldn't even be in question.

Sure we see it differently, because you are comparing Brady to a standard that doesnt exist. He has had as many big games as anyone, you just are holding him to the ridiculous standard of needing to win every time, despite anything else that goes on on the field.
Please feel free to list the QBs you feel succeeded in big games more than Brady.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm fine being wrong by your standards. Enjoy!

Great. Real nice job defending your weak argument.

 

[TealSox]

It is sickening to read excuses for Brady when he wasn't surrounded by great talent and lost the big games, but applauded for winning the big games with with as much or less talent (often times, comparatively speaking).

 

[Ring 6]

I can't speak to the legacy of Montana. I'm simply trying to speak to the differing halves of Brady's career. And that isn't to say that Brady hasn't been the same winning QB he was early in his career, but statistically, he burst on the scene. And in doing so, he answered a lot of critics that held it against him in the Manning vs. Brady argument, which one argument on the way to GOAT.

OK. I thought you were arguing he stopped contributing to winning games and became a stat compiler, but apparently you were making a different argument.

 

[Ring 6]

It is sickening to read excuses for Brady when he wasn't surrounded by great talent and lost the big games, but applauded for winning the big games with with as much or less talent (often times, comparatively speaking).

I dont know where you see anyone making excuses for Brady.

 

[TealSox]

Great. Real nice job defending your weak argument.

Oh, apologies. Didn't realize we were debating like adults. It read as if we stated who was right and who was wrong.

1. I'd start with his record 328 wins, which includes a 71-23 record with the Baltimore Colts (.755 W%). Has a career winning percentage of .678, which isn't shabby compared to Belichick's .633. At 58, Shula had already won 260 games, while Belichick has 162.

2. Also had 19 total playoff appearances, which includes 36 playoff games.

3. Won the conference championship a record 6 times in the Super Bowl era and brought home two Lombardi Trophies, one of which capped the 1972 undefeated season.

4. Sure, he only won two Super Bowls, but he did win the NFL Championship in Baltimore... so go ahead and lock him up with 3 total championships.

Fact of the matter is, when you get into conversations like this, your splitting hairs. And even then, some people are locked into their favorites and nothing short of a it being written in the Bible will change their minds. If you value wins, then Shula is your guy. If you value Championships, then Chuck Noll might be your guy.

At the end of the day, the upper echelon of NFL coaches has to include Bill Belichick, Don Shula, Chuck Noll, George Halas, Paul Brown, Curley Lambeau, Bill Walsh and Joe Gibbs. The ranking from there and the inclusion of names at the bottom of the list is certainly debatable.

 

[Observer]

Then there is no greatest. Thats my point, Montana had 7 playoff losses, including 3 straight 1 and dones, Brady has had 5, and you make it sound like there are QBs out there who won it every year, just because they were clutch.
Manning has lost in the playoffs every year but one (and a couple he didnt even make it) has a 9-10 record and lost in the playoffs 10 of the 11 times he made it. Marino lost in the playoffs every year he made it, Elway lost in the playoffs 7 consecutive times over 13 years, not even making the playoffs 6 other times before winning twice.
You just have no argument here.

Sigh...

Premise: We are talking about whether Brady is the GREATEST; it is a given that he is GREAT so there is no point in Elway, Marino, Manning comparisons.

1. The general consensus greatest is Montana because...
2. Montana has 4 superbowl wins.
3. If someone is to be considered better than Montana, he has to win at least as many superbowls.
4. Brady has only 3.
5. Brady is therefore not considered better than Montana
6. Brady's last win was in 2004
7. Will brady win another? If yes, he will be better than Montana due to all the numerical advantage in other categories. If no, he will be considered as a quarterback who peaked in 2004 and then became a consistent great quarterback who could not surpass Montana.

That is all. :spygate:

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Dare I say, Don Shula.

It's tough to leave him off the list, but I do for these reasons. Don Shula is no doubt one of the best HC's of all time in the NFL, but we are talking about the "Greatest" here.

Yes, Shula is by far the winning-est HC in the history of the NFL with 328 wins, more than twice the average for an SB era HC in the HOF. He also coached far longer than any of his peers, 33 years vs. an average of 18 for his colleagues in Canton.

I leave him off because I think you have to consider the post-season and championships when you evaluate an HC. Shula was an uninspiring, 19--17 in the post-season, barely over .500. He went to seven NFL championship games, but ended up with two titles, compared to Lombardi's 5, Noll's 4 and three each for Belichick, Brown and Walsh. He didn't close consistently.

I also leave him off because, unlike Brown, Belichick, Gillman, Lombardi and Walsh he essentially left the game the way he found it; those others changed it in significant ways. To be considered for the GOAT, I think you have to have had an impact on the game that is goes beyond your own team(s).

 

[Sivy]

Then there is no greatest. Thats my point, Montana had 7 playoff losses, including 3 straight 1 and dones, Brady has had 5, and you make it sound like there are QBs out there who won it every year, just because they were clutch.
Manning has lost in the playoffs every year but one (and a couple he didnt even make it) has a 9-10 record and lost in the playoffs 10 of the 11 times he made it. Marino lost in the playoffs every year he made it, Elway lost in the playoffs 7 consecutive times over 13 years, not even making the playoffs 6 other times before winning twice.
You just have no argument here.

wow..never even really thought about all that. Cant wait to bring these facts up in arguments.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I can't speak to the legacy of Montana. I'm simply trying to speak to the differing halves of Brady's career. And that isn't to say that Brady hasn't been the same winning QB he was early in his career, but statistically, he burst on the scene. And in doing so, he answered a lot of critics that held it against him in the Manning vs. Brady argument, which one argument on the way to GOAT.

Joe Montana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[BlueThunder]

Personally...I think Clive Rush was the GOAT

 

[Ring 6]

Sigh...

Premise: We are talking about whether Brady is the GREATEST; it is a given that he is GREAT so there is no point in Elway, Marino, Manning comparisons.

1. The general consensus greatest is Montana because...
2. Montana has 4 superbowl wins.
3. If someone is to be considered better than Montana, he has to win at least as many superbowls.
4. Brady has only 3.
5. Brady is therefore not considered better than Montana
6. Brady's last win was in 2004
7. Will brady win another? If yes, he will be better than Montana due to all the numerical advantage in other categories. If no, he will be considered as a quarterback who peaked in 2004 and then became a consistent great quarterback who could not surpass Montana.

That is all. :spygate:

Please read before responding. The premise is whether Brady is the greatest IF HE WINS ANOTHER.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Joe Montana was not only 4-0 in Super Bowl appearances, but he actually never threw an interception in any of them. Talk about playing your best football at the most important stage.

Tom Brady can never top that, so the case here is closed.

We've enjoyed your contributions to the thread.

 

[ivanvamp]

Baseball is Ruth, and both the Red Sox and Yankees can lay claim to him.

Clearly, Ruth is most remembered for being a Yankee, but the fact is that the Red Sox won 3 World Series titles (1915, 1916, 1918) with Ruth being a hugely important figure in all three, mostly as a pitcher. So yeah, the Sox can lay some legitimate claim to him...you're right.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

No the case is not close to closed. Brady can match and exceed the number of SB wins. He has also exceeded Montana in many other ways, including passing numbers, overall record and success outside of SB trophies.

I am as big of a Pats fan as it comes but if you give me a berth in the Super Bowl with my choice of Montana in his prime or Brady in his prime to start the game at QB, I go with Joe every time.

That is the ONLY QB I would choose over Brady but to me its a given.

If Brady should win 2 more titles before he retires,then it would surely swing his way.

 

[randomk1]

Joe Montana was not only 4-0 in Super Bowl appearances, but he actually never threw an interception in any of them. Talk about playing your best football at the most important stage.

Tom Brady can never top that, so the case here is closed.

**** that man...Brady has been pretty flawless in his SB's and has set records doing so. If the defense hadn't ******* fumbled away the perfect season we would be talking about Brady's last 80 yard scoring drive as one of the most clutch and important drives in history.

Dude was on his back for the entire game getting beat up and when the chips were down he came through for us.

**** Eli Manning and that miracle drive. He's such a bumbling **** he can't even put together a decent looking game winning drive. It has to involve miracle luck. I don't know who it was on NFLNetwork but he said that pass is something you never want your QB to do. Deliver it late and high.

 

[Ring 6]

I am as big of a Pats fan as it comes but if you give me a berth in the Super Bowl with my choice of Montana in his prime or Brady in his prime to start the game at QB, I go with Joe every time.

That is the ONLY QB I would choose over Brady but to me its a given.

If Brady should win 2 more titles before he retires,then it would surely swing his way.

Ceretainly not unreasonable, but most people IMO only consider the best of Montana and overlook the rest, while lately, doing the opposite with Brady.
For example, you said you would take Montana in his prime, and someone else said he was 'always great in big games'
But that doesnt take into account, for examle:
3 consecutive 1 and dones, from 85-87 when Montana's QB ratings were 65.6, 34.2 and 42.0 and his team scored 3,3, and 21 points, and in those THREE FULL POSTSEASONS he had 0 TDs and 4 picks. Th
Those were in his prime years, and those 49er teams were ranked 2,3 and 3 in defense.
Also, in the years Montana started for the 49ers their defense was ranked in the top 4 in points allowed every year except 1982 (when they were 3-6 in the strike shortened season) and 1988 when they were 8th.
Yet in addition to his remarkable 4 rings, he was 4-7 in the playoffs. This being relevant because people criticize Brady for being 'only' 5-5 outside of his SB years.
Montana had a career w/l of 117-47 (16-7 postseason)
Brady now has a career w/l of 111-32 (14-5 postseason)
At his current rate Brady would have 163 wins before getting to the same 47 losses.
Bradys career TD/Int is 261/103 which is 2.53 to 1
Montanas was TD/INT 273/139 which is 1.96 to 1


Certainly Montana right now is the GOAT, because of the 4 Rings. But the discussion was based upon if and when Brady gets #4, and while Montana is only remember for the high points, if you look objectively that 4th ring is the only superiority Montana has over Brady. Yes that is enough, but if and when Brady gets his 4th, it will be clear cut that Brady surpasses him, in any objective analysis.

 

[randomk1]

Ceretainly not unreasonable, but most people IMO only consider the best of Montana and overlook the rest, while lately, doing the opposite with Brady.
For example, you said you would take Montana in his prime, and someone else said he was 'always great in big games'
But that doesnt take into account, for examle:
3 consecutive 1 and dones, from 85-87 when Montana's QB ratings were 65.6, 34.2 and 42.0 and his team scored 3,3, and 21 points, and in those THREE FULL POSTSEASONS he had 0 TDs and 4 picks. Th
Those were in his prime years, and those 49er teams were ranked 2,3 and 3 in defense.
Also, in the years Montana started for the 49ers their defense was ranked in the top 4 in points allowed every year except 1982 (when they were 3-6 in the strike shortened season) and 1988 when they were 8th.
Yet in addition to his remarkable 4 rings, he was 4-7 in the playoffs. This being relevant because people criticize Brady for being 'only' 5-5 outside of his SB years.
Montana had a career w/l of 117-47 (16-7 postseason)
Brady now has a career w/l of 111-32 (14-5 postseason)
At his current rate Brady would have 163 wins before getting to the same 47 losses.
Bradys career TD/Int is 261/103 which is 2.53 to 1
Montanas was TD/INT 273/139 which is 1.96 to 1


Certainly Montana right now is the GOAT, because of the 4 Rings. But the discussion was based upon if and when Brady gets #4, and while Montana is only remember for the high points, if you look objectively that 4th ring is the only superiority Montana has over Brady. Yes that is enough, but if and when Brady gets his 4th, it will be clear cut that Brady surpasses him, in any objective analysis.

You raise alot of good points but one thing to consider. Montana played in an era where a QB's life was alot tougher and when you compare his passer rating to those from his era...he dwarfs them.Though the talent that he had to work with was also far better than any other QB's