Content Post Idle thoughts: Moral victory, or Lost opportunity....

[mike_usagisan]

If you refuse to recognize this then we will be having this conversation after every game.

Yep.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

There were a few throws yesterday that really took a while to get where they needed to be. That deep shot took forever to get there and allowed Slay to recover and break up the pass.

Agreed. Under thrown ball.

But the pass' height is on purpose so the ball falls over the head of the defender and is easier for a jump ball catch.

 

[Kasmir]

I want to be in Mac's corner, and I see the positives of winning without a superstar QB. I believe it's possible. But Mac is indeed jittery back there. He doesn't seem comfortable.

Might have something to do with playing with two rookie guards and a tackle in his first game back from a protracted illness.

 

[patfanken]

Disagree... the point is we saw what we need to measure up against and we are not there yet

Well I don't necessarily disagree, we might not be there YET. I think we all agreed that, given the schedule, this team'sceiling was a battle for one of the last playoff berths. This is now a VERY young club with a LOT of new parts in play. They are NOT a finished product by any means. NO one is saying that.

Yet there have been several comments by fans who felt that the Pats controlled much of the last 50 minutes and had multiple opportunities to win or at least go into the lead of that game throughout the game. Your comments are so definitive after just one game and so many people out.

It's fine to complain about THIS game. Like I said in the post, there was plenty to complain about. But don't make the assumption that the team you saw on Sunday with all it's flaws will be the team you will see all season.

 

[Kasmir]

My biggest problem with Mac and why i'm rapidly losing belief is not just the results it's he's not been good at what he's supposed good at he's a decision making and accuracy guy, that has to be his strong points because he's very limited athletically and a below average arm talent but his accuracy has been poor.

If you're going to overcome your deficiencies you have to be pin point and his decision making has to be on point, at one point i thought Mac and Tua were very similar level at one point and people will say Tua got weapons which obviously helped but his accuracy is also very good to try and overcome his lack of arm where as Mac hasn't improved in accuracy at all and has even regressed from his rookie year.

Herbert is good at what he's supposed to be good at bar the winning part that's why people will defend him and blame others, it's much easier to just blame him having a bozo coach than using that excuse for Mac.

Huh? You're concerned about accuracy with the guy who holds the NCAA accuracy record and the NFL first-two-years accuracy record?

Mac has lots to prove, but accuracy should be the least of your concerns.

 

[PatsFan2]

Wait a second. Wait a second guys. It seems to me that you are all forgetting the QB is NOT alone out there. EVERY offensive player is depending on 10 other guys to make a play successful. You all sound like Mac is alone out there and the success or failure of every play is solely down to him. You make it sound like every successful play is down to someone else and every bad play is Mac's fault. There were over 300yds in receiving made in the last 50 minutes of this game.

It was also a season opener, and you all forget that there is ANOTHER team out there as well, and a pretty damned good one too. Mac a LOT to overcome in this game. If you refuse to recognize this then we will be having this conversation after every game.

There was nothing wrong with his post he was spot on we are not expecting perfection from Mac but he has to brush up on some of his deficiencies he left plays on the field.

 

[PatsFan2]

Mac was fine today but I saw the same QB I’ve seen for the past two seasons, which isn’t good enough to compete deep into the postseason.

Most certainly not a game where Jones covered himself in glory, although as I said, he was fine and others were also far from perfect.

Accurate, great touch throwing the ball … and that’s about it. Still has too many bad throws, questionable decisions, times where he crumbles in the pocket due to perceived (but not real) pressure, too many ducks that float, too inconsistent and unsteady. I don’t see someone who’s mentally tough, I don’t see a natural leader, I continue to see bad footwork, mechanics, too many fluttering passes, a lack of poise (particularly in critical game situations, which is troubling).

Basically, he’s a physically limited QB with inconsistent mechanics, poor ball velocity, and a lack of maturity/poise. He just seems too emotionally unsteady, often seems to be thinking too much. I was really hoping we’d see a more steady, grounded, focused Mac who looks physically, emotionally, and mentally matured/developed, with improved mechanics/ball velocity. To my eye, he looks more or less like the same goofy kid he was as a rookie, which won’t cut it.

It’s only week 1, but this is the season that will determine Mac’s future with the team and I didn’t see much indicating he’s taken a step forward in any regard.

I always said - back when the Brady/Manning debate was a thing - that Manning was the better pure passer but Brady is the better quarterback. There’s much more to to being a great quarterback than just passing the ball; intangibles, leadership, decision making, poise, mental toughness, judgment, ability to adapt, ability to play well in inclement weather, etc. I unfortunately get the vibe Mac is a Manning at this point; a uniquely talented pure passer of a football, but doesn’t demonstrate many traits that are critical to success beyond that.

Best post of the thread right on.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

I don't like the phrase "moral victory", we should scrap that from the lexicon. It was a "building block loss", and for this team that's very significant and reason to be optimistic. They did a lot of things well, their compete level was very high, they moved the ball, scored TD's, the D was great, the OL played well with 3 new faces, Bourne & Hunter were great, and Mac played well against a top defense.

 

[PatsFan2]

Within the last two minutes, our final drive, did you have any confidence in Mac leading the team down the field to score? I didn't... and that's exactly what happened... nothing... that's coming up small...

fair or unfair, it falls on the QBs shoulders... and I'm tired of being fair in regards to Mac Jones... he's got to prove he can lead the team to victory... and he's failed miserably at that time and again...

Couldn't agree more the proof is there Mac struggles against really good Teams...Three consecutive ones are on the menu.

 

[patfanken]

There was nothing wrong with his post he was spot on we are not expecting perfection from Mac but he has to brush up on some of his deficiencies he left plays on the field.

EVERY player leaves plays out on the field during a game. Tom Brady did too. Just ask him. Here's my general complaint about the general conversation at the point where I made my remark (page 3 I think). Fans too often, take a snapshot of a player based on one game and then ASSUME that result will be what you will see going forward. The game just doesn't work that way. SOME players get better, Some get worse and rarely does the effect of the other team get put into the equation.

BTW- there was nothing wrong with Dr' post, it was just the point where I thought the negative Mac posters in general where missing some points and I responded. Nothing personal

 

[Pape]

Well I don't necessarily disagree, we might not be there YET. I think we all agreed that, given the schedule, this team'sceiling was a battle for one of the last playoff berths. This is now a VERY young club with a LOT of new parts in play. They are NOT a finished product by any means. NO one is saying that.

Yet there have been several comments by fans who felt that the Pats controlled much of the last 50 minutes and had multiple opportunities to win or at least go into the lead of that game throughout the game. Your comments are so definitive after just one game and so many people out.

It's fine to complain about THIS game. Like I said in the post, there was plenty to complain about. But don't make the assumption that the team you saw on Sunday with all it's flaws will be the team you will see all season.

I understand that I have rubbed some people the wrong way with my comments, and yes, they can come off as strong. The issue is this - this is our fourth year of building or re-building and the same unfinished product is on the field... We can harp on the coaching - god knows there is a lot to suss out there - glaring holes in the roster, inadequate coaching (last year, no doubt) which has lead to sloppy play and a multitude of unforced errors on our part on both sides of the ball & the sidelines...

However strong my posts may come off, it boils down to the same thing we have seen over and over - and ScottishPatriots says it best -

This team can't close these games and haven't been able to for years ...

My comments aren't focused on just this game, though it may seem like it... its a commentary on a pattern that has developed over the past two seasons (honestly, i give a pass to cam newton because we all knew he wasn't the future of this team) with our team consistently under-performing when it matters most... Does this fall unfairly on the shoulders of Mac Jones? Yes it does. But that's the way the world works... If we had won he would have received all the accolades due him, and rightly so, despite the victory not being his alone... its the nature of the position.

I think this team has the talent and the ability to compete with the better teams of the league with time... however time is not a luxury that we have - the season is upon us... The Fins are coming in, and that offense is explosive... If we have any hope of competing it starts with Mac Jones... I do not like Mac Jones as a quarterback... he's proven himself to be a mid tier game manager, who won't win one for you... with all that negativity aside, I do hope Mac Jones can succeed though... I want to be proven wrong...

 

[PatsFan2]

@patfanken no two NFL games play out the same way though yesterdays game seem like a moral victory for some not me. They could get steam rolled by Miami's Big Play Offense next week we are going have to keep up.

 

[woolster22]

DEFENSE -

What can you say - It was great. They essentially held one of the best offenses in the NFL. And offense with a top 3 QB, a top 3 OL, a top 3 WR group and a top 10 TE to essentially 12 points of which THREE of those FG's came from over 50 yds away including one from over SIXTY. They held Hurts to 170 yds of passing and the team to just 100yds rushing. That included 37 for Hurts on NINE attempts. Sorry but that is damned impressive. It was a masterful plan from Mayo and well called by Steve. They showed zone, man, and combo coverages. They even had a corner blitz. Bottom line, after the first drive of the game, they kept Philly off balance for most of the game and when they had to held them to LONG FG's. BOTTOM LINE - the defense will keep the Pats in most of their games. I still have no idea how many games we will win, but we are going to be every entertained in all of them.

DL- Jalen Hurts is one of the most difficult QB's to contain in the league as well as one of the most prolific passers. Overall I thought the front 7 did an OUTSTANDING job of pressuring Hurts and getting him off his spot. I thought they contained him pretty well. During the game it seemed like he was getting free to run too many times, but when you added it up it only came to 37yds on 9 carrys about 4ypc, so it wasn't like he was gashing them. The RB's only got about 60 more on 25 attempts, so they were contained as well.

The Eagles usually run Hurts a number of times on planned runs. I only recall them doing it once or twice this game, and I think its because Hurts was getting hit pretty hard all through this game and they wanted to limit his hits.

I thought Kion White pushed the pocket from the inside on a consistent basis. Didn't seem to do much according to the stats, but in this case the stats can be misleading. I thought he stood out. Looks like he only has an effective power move, but it is effective and forced Hurts off his spot several times. I'd be interested in seeing his PFF score. Barmore on the other hand didn't seem to shine as bright but he had his pressures and a QB hit and was good against the run. Still want to see more than just OK from him. Just name a DLman and he held his own. I'm not looking forward to seeing the Dolphins' WR's next week, but I can't WAIT to see what this DL/LB group does to their less than stellar OL.

LB's essentially ditto. Bentley is playing like Hightower now and led the team in Tackles. Tavai less so, but wasn't bad. NO one was bad no defense. I want to see Mapu more on 2nd and 3rd down at LB, but that can wait. He played both from S and LB, though I seemed to me that he was "lined up" as a S, but ended up with LB responsibilities, but I'd have to see the all 22 to make sure that is a correct assumption

DB's Sorry but this might be the best CB/S combination is the ****ing league, and they were MISSING their #1 guy and will be for the next 3 weeks. They played all over the field and the mixing and matching between the CB's and S's was fluid. It was hard to tell who was playing which between the LB's S's and slot CB's

The 2 guys that stood out to me were Gonzales and Peppers. I saw Peppers make a saving play on a long pass on the sideline and then destroy a RB 5yds past the LOS to cause a fumble. It was thrilling. Sorry, but if he's the new "FS" then, "Devon, who?". Well at least for one game. Peppers won't have near the instincts born of years of experience yet, but the speed is there and the physicality is better. One big question from this off season SEEMS to have been answered

And Gonzales was just SPECTACULAR. I knew he would be EVENTUALLY very good, but not THIS good THIS fast. Too soft? He was 2nd on the team in tackles and had a sack. He won most of his one on one battles with AJ Brown Most of his 7 catch came against soft zone coverages and the longest one he gave up Brown broke his ankles on an in and out move for 23yd - the rest of his catches averaged less than 7. Pretty good work for your first game against a top 10 receiver. (and some would put him higher). I liked his toughness. I liked his recovery speed. His 4th down break up late in the game gave the Pats its last chance when the Eagles went for it at around the +45.

The rest of the secondary shouldn't be left out. Mills looked like he might be covering Gaudart a number of time and could be the reason the TE, who had a great year and was key for them only had one TARGET and zero receptions I'm sure the were probably other guys on him as well, but I thought I spotted Mills more than a couple of times. Just another thing I'd love to check (forgot to record the game) Also clearly Marcus must have been doing a good job in the slot and Jon Jones a good job on Smith who had 7 catches but for just 47 yds Again when you look at this defense, remember not to try and fit these guys into some of the old position designations like FS SS.

BTW- interesting stat (at least to me) After Bentley who had 9 tackles, the next FIVE on that list were Gonzales, Bryant (yeah that guy) Peppers, Duggar, and Phillips.Our DL is fine, our Edge guys are good, our LB's are OK, but never forget the strength of this defense are the DB's and the ability of the defensive coaches to weave defenses that work, And it looks like the defense has bought in like the old days. At least for today. They played very good defense against a very good team. They'll face another one next week.

The Refs - I made a NUMBER for strong comments about the refs in this game in the game day thread.. It's kind of out of character for me. Sometimes I comment about a bad call or a missed call, but is more just a comment, because like missed blocks or tackles, the refs are human too and they are gonna miss stuff as well. It's just a part of the game like drops and deflected picks.

But here's the thing. I can see when there are non-calls. That's happening almost every play. And there are judgement calls that they see it differently. But there is NO excuse for just making it up. There were 2 holding calls on Anderson and Henry that we just made up and Eagle guys who were flopping. Even Romo noticed. And the defensive holding holding call was as weak as it gets as well. Romo lied when he pretended that it was an easy call. There were 100 far more egregious calls that weren't called over the course of game.

The defensive holding call wasn't critical, but the 2 invisible holding calls were extremely damaging to both the late drives the Pats had after they got to the red zone and pretty much killed both drives.

I asked a question in the game thread but got no answer. I saw on SEVERAL occasion where the Eagles snapped the ball before everyone was set for a full second Has the rule changed. DO you still have to be set for a full second before you can snap the ball?

ST's I'm going to be brief because it is almost 4am and I've been doing this TOO damned long. The Punter is REALLY good but can get better. He outkicked his coverage (Like did with my marriage ) one time and kicked just into the endzone once for a 23 yd net. He was very good but not perfect, but it was easy to see why he was drafted/

The 4th round FG kicker......not so much. His KO's were fine. But his 3 extra points made me nervous.. None of them split the uprights and the first one would have missed from 30yds out. and the 2nd from 40. The 61 yd FG Elliot hit was straighter than any of his extra points. Just doesn't give me a lot of confidence to this point.

OK - I'm done. Don't just read the damned thing. Let me know what you think and add your views and opinions. Was it a moral victory or a missed opportunity.....or both. Oh, apologies for any grammatical mistakes, too tired to edit. I'll do it when I wake up.

Missed opportunity.

They dug a hole in the 1st qtr and the defense single handedly kept them in it the rest of the day.

Boutte will learn to toe tap. I have no doubt that Troy will be all over that the next few weeks. TBH, I wouldn't mind seeing the kid tapping in the middle of the field on slants and falling down after not one, but two drive killers as a result of not getting the second foot down on relatively pedestrian plays. It's a learning moment for him for sure.

The OL gets a big nod for playing "well enough" against an excellent eagles DL. They were shaky early but did fairly well for 2 rookies and JAG. I still want to see an upgrade from Andrews and young OTs drafted, just like I have for the last 2 years. It's reminiscent of BB ignoring WR during the Brady years....inexplicable from the outside looking in.

Defense. What can you say? They SHUT DOWN one of the best offenses and OLs in the league. White is going to be special. His power is really going to open things up for Judon as the season moves on. The secondary looks world class. That said, we're an injury from disaster at LB.

While it's nice they didn't pack it in after the 16bpt deficit early (Giants, anyone?), they had this game. Thankfully, it's against an NFC opponent and isn't as significant as a divisional tilt. I look forward to our DL destroying Rodgers when it's time for the JEST. Hopefully they don't knock Tua out - that kids brain doesn't need any more punishment. And maybe, just maybe, this defense is good enough to cause the offensive juggernaut Bill's some serious headaches.

They showed resolve. They showed toughness. It wasn't enough at the end of the day, but it is enough to let the fans know that this should be an entertaining season. Hell, this defense looked good enough to open up the possibility of a wildcard SB run, presuming health and steady improvement from the offense.

In BB we trust!

 

[mike_usagisan]

I think this team has the talent and the ability to compete with the better teams of the league with time... however time is not a luxury that we have - the season is upon us...

I'm not sure what you expect at this point. There are 0 better QBs out there to be gotten at this point in the season. They allowed Zappe to compete and it's clear he isn't better. They got Corral, an earlier round pick than Zappe and it's clear he's not an improvement at this point. Unless there's a serious injury, we're watching the make-or-break Mac season. So maybe let's decide at the end of the season rather than after the first game of the season? Maybe Mac will surprise all of us.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

I understand that I have rubbed some people the wrong way with my comments, and yes, they can come off as strong. The issue is this - this is our fourth year of building or re-building and the same unfinished product is on the field... We can harp on the coaching - god knows there is a lot to suss out there - glaring holes in the roster, inadequate coaching (last year, no doubt) which has lead to sloppy play and a multitude of unforced errors on our part on both sides of the ball & the sidelines...

However strong my posts may come off, it boils down to the same thing we have seen over and over - and ScottishPatriots says it best -

My comments aren't focused on just this game, though it may seem like it... its a commentary on a pattern that has developed over the past two seasons (honestly, i give a pass to cam newton because we all knew he wasn't the future of this team) with our team consistently under-performing when it matters most... Does this fall unfairly on the shoulders of Mac Jones? Yes it does. But that's the way the world works... If we had won he would have received all the accolades due him, and rightly so, despite the victory not being his alone... its the nature of the position.

I think this team has the talent and the ability to compete with the better teams of the league with time... however time is not a luxury that we have - the season is upon us... The Fins are coming in, and that offense is explosive... If we have any hope of competing it starts with Mac Jones... I do not like Mac Jones as a quarterback... he's proven himself to be a mid tier game manager, who won't win one for you... with all that negativity aside, I do hope Mac Jones can succeed though... I want to be proven wrong...

With the amount of change since last season, the number of new players and especially having Bill O'Brien, I reject posts that drag in last season or the last few seasons as evidence of any trend. It's a new year, and comments should focus on what's happening this year, not previous years.

 

[Pape]

I'm not sure what you expect at this point.

That's the problem Mike ... I didn't expect anything different than what we saw.

There are 0 better QBs out there to be gotten at this point in the season. They allowed Zappe to compete and it's clear he isn't better. They got Corral, an earlier round pick than Zappe and it's clear he's not an improvement at this point.

i get ya... cant make chicken salad outta shicken chit...

Maybe Mac will surprise all of us.

God i hope so ... I really do.

I just don't think that will happen,

 

[Huckleberry1]

To me it’s like 2001. It’s not so much whether it’s a moral victory or another tough loss, it’s what they do with it that matters. If it gives them confidence and they are able to build on that and become a good team then it won’t matter as much whether they won or lost that game, but if they don’t develop beyond this then they will just be another average team.

As far as plusses and minuses go I would normally criticize the OL and run game for that performance, but with two rookie guards, and facing the best DL in football I will give that area time to accurately assess it. I was however pleasantly surprised by how good Elliot looked. O’Brien did a good job preparing them, and shaky first quarter aside they had a good day throwing the ball.

As for the defense it was a really good day, with many good signs. They have the ingredients to become one of the very best defenses in football. They have had huge issues with running QB’s in recent years, but kept Hurts in check. Their secondary is really good, and they did a decent job against the run. If you can get after the QB, keep the QB from gouging you running the ball, and cover opposing receivers well enough to let your pass rush help out then you have the makings of a really good defense, and they appear to have all of those bases covered.

 

[mike_usagisan]

That's the problem Mike ... I didn't expect anything different than what we saw.


i get ya... cant make chicken salad outta shicken chit...

God i hope so ... I really do.

I just don't think that will happen,

I get it.

I was looking at something, and even the great game-winning drive QBs average about 2 per season. I partially think we've been spoiled seeing it happen by the great QBs to think it's a lot easier than it is. But I also think the team has potential to get a lot better between now and Thanksgiving. If the team gets better, that makes it a lot easier for Mac, too.

We'll see. I'm an optimistic homer, so that's just how I see things.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

Agreed. Under thrown ball.

But the pass' height is on purpose so the ball falls over the head of the defender and is easier for a jump ball catch.

There was no need for that Bourne was wide open. The ball was under thrown and took so much time to get there that he brought slay back in play to the point that the pass should have been intercepted. Slay flat out dropped it

 

[Pape]

With the amount of change since last season,

which has been said year in year out for the last 4 years (including this one)

the number of new players

whch has been said year in year out for the last 4 years (including this one)

and especially having Bill O'Brien,

glad he's here, glad klemm is here, glad mayo is still here...

I reject posts that drag in last season or the last few seasons as evidence of any trend. It's a new year, and comments should focus on what's happening this year, not previous years.

Those who fail to learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them. You have to look at what has happened in the past - you have to disect the problems and learn how to fix them in order to solve them. Can't do that by burying your head in the sand saying "its a new season..."