I rest my case -

[patchick]

I agree with the general point, that WR is not a position to sink huge $$ into. But where would this team have been in the Superbowl if they hadn't had one premium WR who was able to get separation? Now imagine if they'd had two. And I seem to recall a Patriots team with more than two going 16-0.

 

[PatFan1932]

Anquan Boldin
Hines Ward
Marvin Harrison
Reggie Wayne
Keyshawn Johnson
Isaac Bruce
Torry Holt
Andre Rison
Michael Irvin
Jimmy Smith
Jerry Rice
Art Monk
Gary Clark

Are a few with 3 or more Pro-Bowls and have won a Super Bowl...

 

[PatFan1932]

And this is a little invalid over the last 20 years (were it has really been a passing league) and the Patriots have won a vast majority without that trademark wide receiver. As the team Brady/Bill has beat, has in fact had a wide receiver with that pedigree.

 

[edkk323]

On the graphic that had the names of 10 WR's who have been named to MULTIPLE pro bowl teams, (IIRC the number was 3 or more.) and the number of superbowls they have won. All the usual suspects were listed. Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones ,Moss, etc. And the ONLY one on that list was Marvin Harrison.

This stats itself is quite useless. First, the Pats won a lot in the two decades. So the end result would be somewhat "contaminated". Moss and the Pats came close of winning one. Julio Jones made a all time catch in the SB in theory should have won the SB for them (it was like 98% of winning at that point by BSPN).

Just another example about why all the hopes and dreams of a large percentage of our fandom are drooling over the prospect of OBJ or AB are for naught. But here's the thing, WR's DON'T win Superbowls.

WR of course can win your SBs. WR with no QB nor Defense cannot win your SBs. It helps a ton if your QB is on rookie deal. It helps a lot if multiple defense starters are on rookie deals.

Using "winning SBs" as the ultimate benchmark is flawed because of the small samples and unlikelihood. Using "reaching playoff" is better.

The Pats traded for Cooks last year. The Pats tried to trade for DeAndre Hopkins. The rumors say the Pats tried to upgrade even with Josh Gordon last year. The rumors say the Pats wanted OBJ.
There is something the fans are not seeing here.

The cap is rising and the rules are changing. Your team running strategy should adapt as well.

 

[BTTA]

The equation changes if Gronk retires. I don’t think he wants to, but I don’t see him accepting a pay cut, and I can’t see Belichick giving him 12 million. I hope I’m wrong.

OBJ is a luxury right now, but if Gronk says goodbye he would be integral to their passing game.

It is a $10M decision, not a A$12M decision. Gronk could leave for Mars tomorrow and they'd still be in to him for $2M for 2019.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

I don't truly disagree, but Edelman sure seemed important to our win a few weeks ago.

I think he's just talking about the elite receivers - ones that are in the top 5, no?

 

[patfanken]

Jerry Rice seems to have won a few. Did they cut off the timing to exclude him?

Fred Biletnikoff won one too, with lots of pro bowls

IIRC the list was from this century, so Jerry would have been left out.

BTW- I'm not saying that being a great WR is a liability to good offense. That would be ludicrous. But paying $14-17MM of your caps space for ONE player who does nothing but catch the ball is NOT conducive to good team building, by and large.

Now I would LOVE the Pats to uncover some guy who became an elite WR (for once), but I'm not losing sleep over it until it happens.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

The 2018 Patriots will be remembered, to me, as a team that had tremendous heart and tremendous luck. This may have been the healthiest Patriots squad of the last 18 years, as so few contributors were IR’d or banged up. In particular at WR, the team is really playing a dangerous game of chicken if they stand pat or settle for some aging veterans who aren’t even likely to make the team. I am hopeful that Dorsett has been in a developmental role, much like Edelman was prior to breaking out in 2013.

However, I believe the Patriots greatly need a true number one receiver more than ever. It isn’t that the team generally needs this type of guy, but they don’t appear to have the pieces to build a complete receiving corps, which is why a supremely talented WR would be so critical. The last WR they drafted who was any good? Julian Edelman in the 7th round in 2009. Prior to that? Deion Branch in 2002. I don’t like this track record, but I do like their track record for trades/free agency at the position. The problem is that other teams are really onto their strategy now, so it’s going to be really difficult to find hidden value out there with every team’s head up their rear ends.

 

[TB_Helmet]

I can think of a wide receiver who was selected to multiple Pro Bowls and won multiple Super Bowls!

Well he's sort of a wide receiver...

 

[TB_Helmet]

Here is the full list of WRs with more than 3 pro bowl appearances, since 2000, hope it comes through.

Some conclusions:

If you extend the criteria a year earlier, to 1999 instead of 2000, then add Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce to the list of "elite WRs who won a Super Bowl".

A lot of WRs are on this list who lost Super Bowls: off the top of my head I see Fitzgerald, Holt, Chad Johnson, Julio Jones, Terrell Owens, Moss, Wayne, Smith, Welker, Thomas, Bruce, Boldin.

Obviously some of those players weren't elite when they were in the Super Bowl (Chad Johnson, LOL). And no idea if they made the Pro Bowl the same year they played in the Super Bowl, or how much cap space they were taking up that year. But there are quite a few elite receivers who lost the Super Bowl, so all due respect to the OP, I wouldn't say that having an elite WR precludes success, unless there's something special about the Super Bowl (as opposed to the regular season and rest of the playoffs) that makes that the case.

Notably, of the 12 "elite" WRs who lost in the Super Bowl, 5 lost to the Patriots and 3 were on the Patriots. So as others have pointed out, any trends related to success will be highly influenced by New England, for example, "Since 2001, half of all the Super Bowls have featured QBs taken in the sixth round".

 

[Hyped]

Jason Taylor, Brian Urlacher, Junior Seau, Sean Taylor, Champ Bailey, Darrell Revis without discount to the Pats, JJ Watt, Aaron Donald, Suh, Albert Haynesworth, Julius Peppers, Khalil Mack. Not a great argument IMO

Seau was close and Revis didn't take a discount exactly. But I get your point.

So as others have pointed out, any trends related to success will be highly influenced by New England, for example, "Since 2001, half of all the Super Bowls have featured QBs taken in the sixth round"

I just quickly checked and in the last 20 years, of the possible 40 QB's to play in a Superbowl...15 were drafted in the 6th round or later. 9 Brady, 3 Kurt Warner, 1 Brad Johnson, 1 Matt Hasselbeck, & 1 Jake Delhomme.

 

[Flash]

It's the same reason why RBs are being devalued these days. Teams need to realize that WRs are just like RBs in terms of value, neither are worth anything if:
1. They don't have a good QB and
2. QB is getting sacked too fast

An efficient NFL offense will always begin with QB and a good overall OL, not elite WRs and RBs, these are the sexy/luxury positions in the NFL. Unless you have a literal gamebreaker in one of those positions (ex. LaDainian Tomlinson, Randy Moss), those positions should not be priorities in team building.

 

[LJRomanoff]

Randy Moss came very close to making this discussion mute.

He almost made it moot, unless he's running around cutting out peoples' tongues.

 

[DarrylS]

The Pats "Economic System" does not overpay at any one group, including WR's, it does pay #12, but he is on the lower end of the spectrum.

The whole OBJ discussion seems to have been a convenient distraction as it made no economic sense to me.. if the Pats pay OBJ then Flowers and Brown are out the door.. this team has always been about balance and depth, no need to disrupt that now..

Not sure I would like OBJ on this team as his mood swings are obvious and as much as the Pats deal with distractions well, seems like a prima donna to this fan..

 

[Ring 6]

Alshon Jeffery, Demarious Thomas, Emmanuel Sanders, are just a quick few stud WRs to name who have won Superbowls within the last decade

I disagree.

 

[edkk323]

The Pats "Economic System" does not overpay at any one group, including WR's, it does pay #12, but he is on the lower end of the spectrum.

The whole OBJ discussion seems to have been a convenient distraction as it made no economic sense to me.. if the Pats pay OBJ then Flowers and Brown are out the door.. this team has always been about balance and depth, no need to disrupt that now..

Not sure I would like OBJ on this team as his mood swings are obvious and as much as the Pats deal with distractions well, seems like a prima donna to this fan..

BB paid Gilmore when no one on this forum saw it coming AT ALL. I do not know the Pats' economic system but I know one thing they never do. They never limit themselves to one thing. They win with offense sometime; they win with defense sometime; they win with TE sometimes; they win with the running game sometime.

OBJ might not be coming here but the Pats looked for a big time receiver before and surely are looking for one now.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Any Pats WR corps that doesn't have Reche Caldwell could git 'er done with Brady.
OK hyperbole aside I agree that The Squirrel has been the driving force in our last 3 SB wins. Loved his catch and unconscious run after the big hit vs Seattle.

But as good as he is, he wouldn’t be in the class of Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, etc. Edelman is paid a fraction of what those guys are paid. And I think that keeps him humble and working hard

It may even add to that chip on his shoulder. I doubt Edelman would light it up on most other teams...as much as I love the guy

 

[1960Pats]

I feel better knowing that @patfanken and I are on the same side of the diva WR discussion.

 

[maust]

To single out WR as a useless position is foolish. Every position is critical.

I didn't see anything in the OP contending WR was a "useless position" rather that it is an over compensated one, to the detriment of others. BTW, 'foolish' is sinking to that level of condescension and hyperbole.

 

[everlong]

T

On the graphic that had the names of 10 WR's who have been named to MULTIPLE pro bowl teams, (IIRC the number was 3 or more.) and the number of superbowls they have won. All the usual suspects were listed. Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones ,Moss, etc. And the ONLY one on that list was Marvin Harrison.

There has to be a few more caveats to this. Jerry Rice has 10 first team all pro selections nevermind Pro Bowls. Maybe it was Since 2000? That would be why Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt weren't on the list since their SB win was in 99.

Even with that Demaryius Thomas and Hines Ward both won SBs and have at least 4 pro bowl selections since 2000.