I rest my case -

[A Defiant Goose]

Elite WRs will get you good playoff seedings but you need a tough defense and clutch players in the playoffs to seal the deal. The two aren't mutually exclusive but that's how I see it

 

[shmessy]

I don't truly disagree, but Edelman sure seemed important to our win a few weeks ago.

He's not THAT kind of WR.

There;s a reason why he has been in the league 9 years now and is only making $3 million per year.

But the "kids" love the shiny objects.

.

 

[shmessy]

I don't disagree with your main point, Ken, but at least in an earlier period of the NFL, there were a number of Hall of Fame wide receivers who won multiple Super Bowls: Paul Warfield, Lynn Swann, John Stallworth, Jerry Rice, Art Monk, and Michael Irvin. Don Maynard, Bob Hayes, and Fred Biletnikoff were each on one Super Bowl winning team.

Sure - pre-free agency/salary cap era.

For the past several years, it's been hysterical watching how BB is clearly exhibiting the blue print to the entire world, yet the media (and the Steelers/Cowboys etc.) keep fawning over "star players". The cycle keeps playing over and over and over, yet no one outside of Foxboro is learning a thing. They keep hitting their heads against the same wall.

It's lie some pathetic, high comedy.

 

[shmessy]

Don’t see why a someone wouldn’t want a super star wr, a shifty unconverable wr with a goat Te on the same team. The possibilities would be endless.

Sure! At a team friendly cap hit - - - you know, so BB can pay the other 52 in order to WIN.

It's not just WRs. Its QBs and other shiny objects also. Remember the Ravens Dynasty of 2013-2018?

When will people learn the NFL today is a Rubiks Cube. There are MULTIPLE parts/combos to fit/pay.

It ain't the NBA where guys are choosing who they want to team up with on the playground.

But yeah, marketers/carnival barkers like Cowherd, or that Fantasy Football geek Nic Wright get ratings by focusing about the "big names".

BB and Brady could actually go another 10 years as long as the other IDJITS never catch on.

I'm in hysterics every time some of the outside "analysts" scratch their heads at how Brady and BB keep doing this at their ages. The truth is that, in an INTELLIGENT LEAGUE, they COULDN'T............ The Patriots truly operate in a different paradigm.

I don't think there has ever been such a continuing situation in American sports history.

The guy who wrote Money Ball (Michael Lewis) should realize this is a sports management story 10 times larger.

.

.

.

 

[Steve102]

Jerry Rice seems to have won a few. Did they cut off the timing to exclude him?

Fred Biletnikoff won one too, with lots of pro bowls

I don't disagree with your main point, Ken, but at least in an earlier period of the NFL, there were a number of Hall of Fame wide receivers who won multiple Super Bowls: Paul Warfield, Lynn Swann, John Stallworth, Jerry Rice, Art Monk, and Michael Irvin. Don Maynard, Bob Hayes, and Fred Biletnikoff were each on one Super Bowl winning team.

I can't speak for @patfanken, but my guess is he's talking about guys in the modern era, or guys playing with today's rule package. The guys you all mention are old school football guys.

One of the guys I coach with tells his line players that "those pretty boys that play outside the numbers" aren't real football players. It's usually said within my ear shot, to make sure I know I am getting my balls busted. (I'm the WR coach) The point of it is, that those guys out there are a little on the diva side, as opposed the O line guys that get no glory.

My opinion is that the guys that play "outside the numbers" in the NFL are indeed a little on the diva side. There's way more AB types in the league right now than there are Rice's and Swann's. There's a lot of "me first" types. "Me First" doesn't fly in Foxboro. IMO, that's why we've struggled getting a top flight guy out there, and why we have a lousy draft history out there. Bill wants nothing to do with a "me first" guy, and that's the core of why this team is successful for so long. Team first.

Before you point your finger and say "yeah, but Randy Moss...", Randy was quite happy being a team first guy until 2010, when he reverted to form. Bill then launched his ass out of here. There's no room for selfish football players here.

 

[Dragda]

Three things that you can count on:

• Death
• Taxes
• No case resting on Patsfans.com

 

[mosslost]

Any Pats WR corps that doesn't have Reche Caldwell could git 'er done with Brady.
OK hyperbole aside I agree that The Squirrel has been the driving force in our last 3 SB wins. Loved his catch and unconscious run after the big hit vs Seattle.

That team should have won too

 

[tasmlab]

Agree that the Pats shouldn't pursue those big names.

That whole 2018 approach where they do 33 transactions at WR and then do a hail mary type trade for a drug addict in-season probably isn't the ideal approach either. (going 14-5, winning the super bowl notwithstanding)

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

It is a $10M decision, not a A$12M decision. Gronk could leave for Mars tomorrow and they'd still be in to him for $2M for 2019.

Who else here would also be wicked pissed at Elon Musk were this to happen?

 

[TB_Helmet]

Who else here would also be wicked pissed at Elon Musk were this to happen?

Meh, if Rob Gronkowski were the first man on Mars, I’d be cool with that even if we had a $2m cap hit. That’d be pretty awesome. He could plant a Patriots flag.

 

[gobesmug]

I didn't see anything in the OP contending WR was a "useless position" rather that it is an over compensated one, to the detriment of others. BTW, 'foolish' is sinking to that level of condescension and hyperbole.

Way to ignore the other point. I agree that foolish was harsh, but let's be realistic most big agent FA signings never amount to a Superbowl or even playoff success regardless of position.

Singling out WR just seems pointless. If the argument is about allocation of funds I agree that over spending on a position that isn't a great need is worthless.

But for argument sakes. If a team has a solid defense, good oline, and a good rookie QB with plenty of cap space, spending money on a prime WR can be beneficial. Now given the pats roster and potential needs, spending 17mil on one player not named Brady isn't the best use of cap space IMO.

 

[IndianPat]

Every team needs good wide receivers. I am sure Patfanken is referring to the expensive elite ones that cost 15m like Brandin Cooks, Sammy Watkins, Julio Jones, Antonio Brown etc. who take up nearly 8% of cap space and whose contribution is only marginally better.
This thread reminded me to look up an old article by CHFF about elite wide receivers being nothing more than a "shiny hood ornament" for a football team.
Fancred Sports : Shiny Hood Ornaments: Looking for Love in All the Wrong Places

 

[maust]

Way to ignore the other point. I agree that foolish was harsh, but let's be realistic most big agent FA signings never amount to a Superbowl or even playoff success regardless of position.

Singling out WR just seems pointless. If the argument is about allocation of funds I agree that over spending on a position that isn't a great need is worthless.

But for argument sakes. If a team has a solid defense, good oline, and a good rookie QB with plenty of cap space, spending money on a prime WR can be beneficial. Now given the pats roster and potential needs, spending 17mil on one player not named Brady isn't the best use of cap space IMO.

And what 'other point' was it that I supposedly ignored? To recap, you posted a list of defensive players names with no explanation, apparently thinking that somehow we were all supposed to know what you meant by them then stated "Not a great argument IMO" to which I responded "Not a great counterargument IMO" because a list of names without explanation is really no argument at all. You responded with hyperbole and condescension which I in turn pointed out, I would like to think that most every Pats fan that regularly comments here is aware every position matters. Ken wasn't singling out the position, he was taking exception with the folks that seem to want every high priced non Patriot type diva whose name pops up without consideration to the ripple effect. By and large you and I are in agreement regarding the need to prioritize the allocation of funds sensibly, I fail to see what's being ignored.

 

[Lavictoire]

Any Pats WR corps that doesn't have Reche Caldwell could git 'er done with Brady.
OK hyperbole aside I agree that The Squirrel has been the driving force in our last 3 SB wins. Loved his catch and unconscious run after the big hit vs Seattle.

My memory is fuzzy but I remember thinking at the time that Caldwell really stepped up and did pretty good because we were missing guys? I know he screwed up in the end but he played over his head for awhile. I cringe when Bill Buckner is remembered for that one play.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

My memory is fuzzy but I remember thinking at the time that Caldwell really stepped up and did pretty good because we were missing guys? I know he screwed up in the end but he played over his head for awhile. I cringe when Bill Buckner is remembered for that one play.

If he had just caught that damn pass (basically a shovel pass for difficulty level), he would have been a well-documented success story for his 2006 season. I still can’t believe he didn’t catch it. Worse than Buckner. The Red Sox had already blown the lead and were going to lose any way; it was inevitable. Caldwell just need to catch a slowly tossed ball directly into his chest, turn around, and walk into the end zone and the game is essentially over.

 

[gobesmug]

And what 'other point' was it that I supposedly ignored? To recap, you posted a list of defensive players names with no explanation, apparently thinking that somehow we were all supposed to know what you meant by them then stated "Not a great argument IMO" to which I responded "Not a great counterargument IMO" because a list of names without explanation is really no argument at all. You responded with hyperbole and condescension which I in turn pointed out, I would like to think that most every Pats fan that regularly comments here is aware every position matters. Ken wasn't singling out the position, he was taking exception with the folks that seem to want every high priced non Patriot type diva whose name pops up without consideration to the ripple effect. By and large you and I are in agreement regarding the need the need to prioritize the allocation of funds sensibly, I fail to see what's being ignored.

I was pointing out DPOY winners/candidates that got paid like it and never won. My point was every position that is overpaid is a poor decision.

I love what Patfanken normally writes but for years he has gripped about WRs being overvalued and not needed. I was presenting defensive names of HOF players who were game changers at there position that never won. Basically I could make an argument that any position other than QB shouldn't be pursued in FA because of XYZ at DT never won anything.

Now if he brought up cap allocation showing that teams who spent X amount % on the WR grouping performed worse than teams who spent less then I would get on board with that. But name dropping HOF players who never won doesn't present a strong argument. I do agree with Ken that we shouldn't spend a ton on a Prime Donna WR but for a closing argument it wasn't compelling enough to win me over.

 

[Lavictoire]

If he had just caught that damn pass (basically a shovel pass for difficulty level), he would have been a well-documented success story for his 2006 season. I still can’t believe he didn’t catch it. Worse than Buckner. The Red Sox had already blown the lead and were going to lose any way; it was inevitable. Caldwell just need to catch a slowly tossed ball directly into his chest, turn around, and walk into the end zone and the game is essentially over.

Yeah, are you talking about the play where the Colts screwed up and didn't have him covered? What a gift! Brady finally saw him and threw it. aargh! I agree the Buckner play was not why they lost and he is unfairly blamed. I think it was Bob Stanley pitching who always seemed to give up a lead.

 

[BradyFTW!]

While on the treadmill at the gym, NFL Live was on one of the TV's and they put up a graphic that (IMO) tells it all in the never ending hero worship of all things dealing with WR's. On the graphic that had the names of 10 WR's who have been named to MULTIPLE pro bowl teams, (IIRC the number was 3 or more.) and the number of superbowls they have won. All the usual suspects were listed. Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones ,Moss, etc. And the ONLY one on that list was Marvin Harrison.

BTW- it should be noted that the year Harrison won was in a year where it was the Colts DEFENSE was the major player in that win, and Manning and their offense had one of the worst offensive performances for a superbowl winning teams. Something that became a pattern for Manning in his 2 Superbowl wins. (I couldn't help myself)

Just another example about why all the hopes and dreams of a large percentage of our fandom are drooling over the prospect of OBJ or AB are for naught. But here's the thing, WR's DON'T win Superbowls.

That has been MY position for many years. But I am willing to be wrong. So I'm inviting all those who continually crave just about ANY WR that become available, regardless of how little a chance they might ever become Patriots; to try and state a case for our paying top dollar to acquire one of these "anchors".

Let me have it!

You could make pretty much the same argument against any position truly mattering, with the likely exception of coach and QB. Most the best defensive players I can remember never won a Super Bowl either. Look at the most dominant pass rushers and left tackles the league has seen over the last 15 years, and most of them haven't won any Super Bowls either. But I don't think anyone would suggest protecting the QB's blind side or rushing the passer don't matter to winning the Super Bowl.

I think this has more to do with the fact that pro bowl berths, like market-setting contracts, are generally awarded based on strange and stupid criteria that don't have nearly enough correlation to sustained, long-term winning.

And just over the last 5-7 years or so, pretty much any evaluation based on SB wins inherently has a bit of a complicating factor in that, if you weren't playing for the Patriots you probably haven't won **** because the Patriots have this strange habit of winning the Super Bowl more often than not. If the Pats are philosophically opposed to doing something, then that thing will not be correlated with recent SB wins even if it is otherwise a valid SB-contending strategy, simply because the Pats are the ones winning all the SBs.

But yeah, having said all of that I do think WRs who move the needle enough to warrant anything resembling the kind of contract that the top ones get are exceptionally rare talents. Like, of WRs playing right now, DeAndre Hopkins and maybe Julio Jones are probably the ones that I think you could give a real market-setting deal to without it being borderline organizational suicide.

 

[rochrist]

I don't truly disagree, but Edelman sure seemed important to our win a few weeks ago.

Edelman is the antithesis of the shiny hood ornament.

 

[rochrist]

In the last 20 years or so, very few elite WRs won SBs, but before that, it was very common.

The difference is the salary cap.