How Mac Jones Looked in His First Start Compared With Tom Brady

[sb1]

Looking forward to the time when there's enough tape on Mac for the league to start to figure him out... and then to see what he does about that.

 

[BigPeteG]

Looking forward to the time when there's enough tape on Mac for the league to start to figure him out... and then to see what he does about that.

You don't figure out pocket passers - you just try to get pressure on them so they end up making poor decisions. It's how the Giants beat Tom Brady - used their front four to overwhelm him - while still keep enough coverage downfield. It's guys like Tim Tebow, Lamar Jackson et all that get figured out..

A good pocket passer just tries to get the ball to the right place. A defense can only pick it's poison when they operating well..

 

[sieglo]

Precisely because the game has changed, in 20 years someone other than Brady will be widely regarded as being the new GOAT. Maybe Mahomes, but nobody knows. Almost every top QB prospect has a higher ceiling than Mac, because their ceiling is Tom Brady with legs. I agree that Mac can't be the new GOAT, because he lacks the legs. Trey Lance and Justin Fields have a much higher ceiling than Mac because they might some day be better than Brady because of their legs.

Arguably one of the things that made Brady great is that he didn’t have legs. So he had to take his game in a different and better direction. So I don’t accept this thesis.

 

[jah]

Arguably one of the things that made Brady great is that he didn’t have legs. So he had to take his game in a different and better direction. So I don’t accept this thesis.

What makes Brady great is not necessarily what will make the next GOAT great.

 

[BigPeteG]

Precisely because the game has changed, in 20 years someone other than Brady will be widely regarded as being the new GOAT. Maybe Mahomes, but nobody knows. Almost every top QB prospect has a higher ceiling than Mac, because their ceiling is Tom Brady with legs. I agree that Mac can't be the new GOAT, because he lacks the legs. Trey Lance and Justin Fields have a much higher ceiling than Mac because they might some day be better than Brady because of their legs.

This Mac is slow thing is a media fantasy. If he worked a little at it he could match Mariota or Daniel Jones in a foot race. He ran a 4.79 on his pro day and shows some speed in his HS days. Just because Alabama never had him scramble - means nothing. There is only so much time in a day and most QBs are going to work on QB stuff - not just speed work.

I'd wager the real #1 concern with Mac is his arm strength. Despite what people think Tom Brady has elite arm strength. He is not great at throwing deep balls but he really whistles it on the short and medium throws. The other day he chucked a hail mary 65+ that was almost too deep and he is 44.

So the question is does Mac have enough arm strength to be an elite QB or is he like Chad Pennington with an upside of Drew Brees. Don't get me wrong - Mac isn't an elite runner - he doesn't have the strength and power to break tackles and lacks instant acceleration. But by NFL QB standards he is faster then many..

He obviously has the brains to make the right throws. But can he zip it in there against NFL coverages in tight windows. That's is what people were worried about pre-draft. That's why he slipped. Speed wise you could easily paint a narrative that Mac Jones is pretty quick. A 4.79 is much faster then anything Tom Brady ran and Mac's upper body is classic skinny fat. So he is leaving a lot of speed on the table genetics wise.

Basically the rub on Jones was he didn't have Lamar Jackson speed or a big arm. One scout called him a walking brain and not much else. This is of course a huge exaggeration. But its this thinking that scared away other teams.

But the whole lacking speed thing is an ESPN fantasy so that they could push the "new" breed of QBs which are a lot like very early QBs.. I don't think professional scouts were scared of his speed. Again he is more then enough wheels to thrive in the NFL. Mahomes is about as fast in straight line speed. But Mahomes has a big arm..

From Bills perspective its not so bad though.. He feels like he could win a lot of games with a guy like Chad Pennington.. So he has the guts to take him. And who knows maybe his arm strength is underrated or could be developed to be like Tom's.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Precisely because the game has changed, in 20 years someone other than Brady will be widely regarded as being the new GOAT. Maybe Mahomes, but nobody knows. Almost every top QB prospect has a higher ceiling than Mac, because their ceiling is Tom Brady with legs. I agree that Mac can't be the new GOAT, because he lacks the legs. Trey Lance and Justin Fields have a much higher ceiling than Mac because they might some day be better than Brady because of their legs.

Always enjoyed your posts, always insightful, but I gotta disagree here.

Which decider-all proclaimed that running QBs are the new best type of QB? I know it's the fad for drafts among terrible teams. I'm not convinced. I feel very confident Mac will have a better career than Lance or Fields.

A QB who can throw 40 times for 70% completion, for over 300 yards, and take 1 or zero sacks a game, in my opinion is always better than a guy who runs 8 times for 60 yards. It's so much more efficient to throw it than to personally run it and take a hit. It also helps a QB play for 18+ years compared to being on the decline (like a RB) after age 32. Actually for draft criteria I would purposely go for QBs with the longest longevity (pocket QBs who minimize hits and get it out fast) as you want to miminize turnover as much as possible at the most important position.

.

 

[1960Pats]

Precisely because the game has changed, in 20 years someone other than Brady will be widely regarded as being the new GOAT. Maybe Mahomes, but nobody knows. Almost every top QB prospect has a higher ceiling than Mac, because their ceiling is Tom Brady with legs. I agree that Mac can't be the new GOAT, because he lacks the legs. Trey Lance and Justin Fields have a much higher ceiling than Mac because they might some day be better than Brady because of their legs.

The NYFL is still a league where a QB needs to use his arm and brain more than his legs, and not one of the QB's mentioned or any other will ever come near Brady's accomplishments.

I really don't think it's fair to judge any QB compared to Brady, especially a rookie. Maybe Bill brought in Cam to make any new QB look better. It sure has worked.

 

[RIpats88]

Looking forward to the time when there's enough tape on Mac for the league to start to figure him out... and then to see what he does about that.

what is there to figure out? hes a pocket passer. He reads the defense, moves in the pocket and delivers the ball. no one figured out brady or mahomes or manning or brees. Its usually quarterbacks like Llamar Jackson or Kapernick that teams figure out. guys who are sub-par passers who rely more on their athleticism and running to create passing lanes.

its why cam newton is done. once the athleticism fades abit and teams dont have to worry about you running for 50 yards then they can be more honest and force you to throw.

 

[RIpats88]

when it comes to GOAT talk. no one is ever going to accomplish what brady did. 7 superbowl rings and the longevity that he has. Alot of what has made brady great is intangible.

I mean skills wise, is he any better than Rodgers, brees, manning? all threw an accurate ball and were smart QB's but Brady had something different to him that set him apart.

 

[venecol]

I mean skills wise, is he any better than Rodgers, brees, manning? all threw an accurate ball and were smart QB's but Brady had something different to him that set him apart.

That he's a metrosexual?

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Can't find stats for Steve Grogan's first career start in 1975.

Got it.

New England Patriots at St. Louis Cardinals - November 2nd, 1975 | Pro-Football-Reference.com

New England Patriots 17 at St. Louis Cardinals 24 on November 2nd, 1975 - Full team and player stats and box score

www.pro-football-reference.com

November 2, 1975, Busch Stadium vs. the Cardinals, coached by Don Coryell

Rookie Grogan threw an 11-yard TD to Randy Vataha in the second quarter, and the Pats led at the half, 10-7.

Ray Hamilton took a fumble recovery all the way in the third for a 17-7 lead, but then Jim Hart took over and Mack Herron's all-purpose heir apparent, Terry Metcalf, had a big game, and the home team won 24-17.

Grogan's stats: 14-34-173-1-2, sacked twice, rating 42.9 / 3 rushes for 21 yards

Steve started six of the last 7 games of the season. Fairbanks obviously saw enough to be comfortable trading Plunkett for a king's ransom which put us over the top. Or should have.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Alot of what has made brady great is intangible.

Since he became the starter, I felt we (and now I guess the Bucs) had the advantage at the quarterback position, period.

He went up against a slew of more celebrated, experienced and hyped QB's, and sometimes it showed, especially the first few years.

But this kid's mentality clearly was about winning. Winning the game. And was NOT about his individual stats, or credit, or accolades. His relentless pursuit of self-improvement was ALWAYS in the context of winning the game. His personality meshed tremendously well with Belichick's. It only went sour when Tom was a seasoned veteran, yes with the shared disappointment of the ten year drought, but also after Bill's crazy decisions giving away championships and although the Butler benching was HUGE, I think losing AB was the last straw. You'd think Tom had built up enough cred to get somebody, the coach, the owner, somebody, to give him the benefit of the doubt. What he's doing now isn't to rub it in our faces; it's just what he wasn't allowed to do here.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Brady had something different to him that set him apart.

Like Starr, Montana, Flutie.

Graham, Unitas and Van Brocklin aren't too shabby, either.

 

[Pats2000]

This Mac is slow thing is a media fantasy. If he worked a little at it he could match Mariota or Daniel Jones in a foot race. He ran a 4.79 on his pro day and shows some speed in his HS days. Just because Alabama never had him scramble - means nothing. There is only so much time in a day and most QBs are going to work on QB stuff - not just speed work.

I'd wager the real #1 concern with Mac is his arm strength. Despite what people think Tom Brady has elite arm strength. He is not great at throwing deep balls but he really whistles it on the short and medium throws. The other day he chucked a hail mary 65+ that was almost too deep and he is 44.

So the question is does Mac have enough arm strength to be an elite QB or is he like Chad Pennington with an upside of Drew Brees. Don't get me wrong - Mac isn't an elite runner - he doesn't have the strength and power to break tackles and lacks instant acceleration. But by NFL QB standards he is faster then many..

He obviously has the brains to make the right throws. But can he zip it in there against NFL coverages in tight windows. That's is what people were worried about pre-draft. That's why he slipped. Speed wise you could easily paint a narrative that Mac Jones is pretty quick. A 4.79 is much faster then anything Tom Brady ran and Mac's upper body is classic skinny fat. So he is leaving a lot of speed on the table genetics wise.

Basically the rub on Jones was he didn't have Lamar Jackson speed or a big arm. One scout called him a walking brain and not much else. This is of course a huge exaggeration. But its this thinking that scared away other teams.

But the whole lacking speed thing is an ESPN fantasy so that they could push the "new" breed of QBs which are a lot like very early QBs.. I don't think professional scouts were scared of his speed. Again he is more then enough wheels to thrive in the NFL. Mahomes is about as fast in straight line speed. But Mahomes has a big arm..

From Bills perspective its not so bad though.. He feels like he could win a lot of games with a guy like Chad Pennington.. So he has the guts to take him. And who knows maybe his arm strength is underrated or could be developed to be like Tom's.

Mac was throwing darts last week. I think most people are underestimating his arm strength. His upside easily looks to be Drew Brees.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Mac was throwing darts last week. I think most people are underestimating his arm strength. His upside easily looks to be Drew Brees.

I like Drew but he chucked it. I never felt he was going to game-manage a win for you.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I think losing AB was the last straw. You'd think Tom had built up enough cred to get somebody, the coach, the owner, somebody, to give him the benefit of the doubt. What he's doing now isn't to rub it in our faces; it's just what he wasn't allowed to do here.

They did give him the benefit of the doubt—over his past actions. They canned him as soon as they saw that he had not taken advantage of that clean slate, and had lapsed back into his past behavior.

 

[BigPeteG]

Mac was throwing darts last week. I think most people are underestimating his arm strength. His upside easily looks to be Drew Brees.

Yeah so far so good.. Brees had what i would consider an 'average' nfl arm - which is hardly bad.

Chad Pennington lacked arm strength especially after his rotator cuff injury. Pennington is an interesting comparison because like Brees he was super accurate at least early on.. Pennington might have been pretty good if not for the injuries..

Point is it is really ESPN that knocks his speed (and other sports media) so much. Its not his speed that will fail him - the guy runs fine. He is hardly a statue. Here is a sample scouting report..

Notice how they talk about his arm strength - that was more of an issue then his speed.

Mac Jones NFL Draft 2021: Scouting Report for New England Patriots QB | Bleacher Report | Latest News, Videos and Highlights

Guys who rarely try to earn first downs with the legs are called "slow" but its not always true. Its helpful on a bad team to be able to run a bit but its hardly critical. Guys who have success in the NFL often get the ball out in 2.5 seconds. Some can get the ball out before a guy running straight at them hits them..

 

[BigPeteG]

They did give him the benefit of the doubt—over his past actions. They canned him as soon as they saw that he had not taken advantage of that clean slate, and had lapsed back into his past behavior.

LMAO. No they didn't.. Benefit of the doubt means you don't take any unproven accusations as fact and then act on it. That's what Kraft did - the whole league egged him on - simply because they wanted to see the Patriots lose. It worked - Kraft got played.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

They did give him the benefit of the doubt—over his past actions. They canned him as soon as they saw that he had not taken advantage of that clean slate, and had lapsed back into his past behavior.

You're right about the tweets. And Kraft understandably desires a strong standard of behavior, which has been challenged from Peter to Hernandez.

It takes TIME for any person to grow, learn, and put unfortunate personal behavior in the past and move on. Although it can appear short on the calendar, there is no magic 'switch' to click and make yourself fall in line to where you should, need, and WANT to be. AB was legitimately dismissed as a train wreck. But he was living in Tom's HOUSE. With his FAMILY. This needed collaboration with the view of a project.

They gave Brown a chance like they did with Gordon. Most people have no idea the pressure on yourself when you're given a golden opportunity to succeed after you've messed up prior ones. Yes, AB was a game changing top receiver who we needed. Kraft and Belichick should have considered and then followed the possibility that Brady knew what he was doing.

They were tweets. He didn't borrow money from Esposito and fly to Hawaii when everybody else went back to Boston from Vancouver, jumping the team like Derek Sanderson did.

And to zero surprise at all to me, Tom's opinion has been proven justified. AB 'did' nothing serious.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

LMAO. No they didn't.. Benefit of the doubt means you don't take any unproven accusations as fact and then act on it. That's what Kraft did - the whole league egged him on - simply because they wanted to see the Patriots lose. It worked - Kraft got played.

Kraft has been played by the owners throughout. From the uniforms to the FakeGates, he's a milquetoast. I can't believe he hired Belichick.