How confident are you that Jones is "the guy"?

[sb1]

First of all, when did checking down become a bad thing? Both Brady and Drew Brees have had the reputation of being check down QBs their throughout their careers. Every elite QB checks down. Every good QB checks down. Every bad QB checks down. Back in the early part of the Brady era, the Pats were known for their horizontal passing game where they used the short pass for their running game.

It is how check down that matters. Is Jones just going through his progressions or panicking and just afraid to let play develop and just dumping off the ball or is he not seeing the field and just looking for the easiest throw or is the offensive line not giving him enough time for the play to develop and he is forced to dump off the ball to a safety valve. I would say it is mostly the first one and last one.

Currently Jones has a 6.3 YPA average. You know what Brady's YPA average was in 2002? Yep, 6.3 YPA. In 2019, Brady's YPA average was 6.6. In fact, Brady had six seasons where he had under 7.0 YPA.

Right now, Jones does not have the time to let plays developed. He was pressured 18 times last and 15 times last night. The o-line is failing him. Why can't you acknowledge that?

Brady in 2002 cannot be compared with QB's today in any way. 6.3 YPA was acceptable back then. Today you won't go far with a QB that plays that kind of game. It's the era of passing and big numbers and big stats. If the Pats wanted a checkdown charlie QB they didn't need to draft one in the first round, and they already have Stidham on the roster for that kind of role.

I'm not saying that's what Mac is, I already said in the topic that it's too early to judge the kid either way. And I understand it's not easy with the serious OL problems we're seeing. But I want to see him start trying to make plays when they're there to be made. He's not even doing that. Maybe he still has the reins on I don't know. I don't want him to be programmed in his rookie year to take the checkdown as his first instinct either. Also doesn't help with that perception when BB chooses to kick a low percentage FG to take the lead with 56 seconds left and the Bucs with 2 time outs rather than trust his rookie QB to make a play to get 3 yards. Think he makes the same decision if he still had Brady? Nah.

I was also not comparing Mac to Rosen, other than making the point that draft position doesn't guarantee you're gonna be a star and there are plenty of first rounder QB's who turn out to be nothing more than a backup. I hope Mac will be a franchise QB, as QB purgatory sucks.

If the Pats had a clone of Brady at QB I think they win by double digits easy on Sunday night.

 

[farn]

After watching Jones last night, I am 100 percent sure he is our guy!

it’s the lack of talent around him that scares me. Henry, smith and agular have to play better!

Henry hasn’t been trash. I think he gets more & more involved as time passes. Looks like Bourne is his fav of the newcomers….

 

[Rob0729]

Brady in 2002 cannot be compared with QB's today in any way. 6.3 YPA was acceptable back then. Today you won't go far with a QB that plays that kind of game. It's the era of passing and big numbers and big stats. If the Pats wanted a checkdown charlie QB they didn't need to draft one in the first round, and they already have Stidham on the roster for that kind of role.

I'm not saying that's what Mac is, I already said in the topic that it's too early to judge the kid either way. And I understand it's not easy with the serious OL problems we're seeing. But I want to see him start trying to make plays when they're there to be made. He's not even doing that. Maybe he still has the reins on I don't know. I don't want him to be programmed in his rookie year to take the checkdown as his first instinct either.

I was also not comparing Mac to Rosen, other than making the point that draft position doesn't guarantee you're gonna be a star. I hope Mac will be a franchise QB, as QB purgatory sucks.

If the Pats had a clone of Brady at QB I think they win by double digits easy on Sunday night.

What about Brady having 6.6 YPA in 2019? The Pats got to the playoffs with that. And that was during this era. So was 2013 when he had 6.9 YPA. They got to the AFCCG then.

And I don't see Jones as a "checkdown Charlie". His time to release is up there at 2.67 seconds (11th in the league) and he has been moving up the ranks (I think he knocked one tenth of a second off his average this week). If he is constantly checking down, his time to release would be slower. That means he is more likely actually throwing to his primary target more often than you give him credit for, but the Pats are just calling shorter passing plays in part to bring the kid along slowly and also in part because the o-line sucks and if you start calling longer plays to develop, they are going to get the kid killed because of the o-line. They can't even run play action to give the play time to develop because the Pats can't run the ball. Your only proof that he is a "checkdown charlie" is the fact that his YPA is low. But that could be by design.

I am sorry. But until this o-line is fixed or teams decide they can't stop Jones by pressuring him, I don't see what he is doing as a bad thing. This offensive line is so bad that at least one starter from it has been benched each week this year. Jones isn't Lawrence, Fields, or Wilson who can consistently scramble out of the pocket and use his legs to buy time to let the play develop. He can sometimes step up in the pocket to buy time, but the way teams have been rushing him the last few weeks he doesn't have time to let the play develop to take shots down the field. Hell, the Pats have do misdirection plays just to buy time to even attempt deeper passes.

It's funny. Last week, I was having a debate with a Jones doubter who claimed Jones didn't have a fast enough release and the Bucs were going to make him turtle because they were going to get to him all night before he released the ball. Now you are basically arguing that he is giving up on his primary receiver too quickly and should hold onto the ball until the play develops.

And I never said he was a Brady clone. I am just showing that even an elite QB like Brady can have a really low YPA.

Most people didn't even want to see Jones on the field until after Sunday's game because he wasn't ready. Now people are starting to question if he has what it takes to be an NFL starter.

 

[Froob]

Had a nice game last night, Jones is a keeper. He played a good game covering AB.

 

[Rob0729]

Lots of stats floating around, but I trust my eyeballs more than anything else. What I see is a young, intelligent hard working QB with sufficient skills to continue to improve to the point where he will become elite.

At the end of any game it is about "moving the chains" & scoring points, on Sunday nite he did that well. The Pats had 20 1st downs with a TOP of 26:05, the Bucs had 22 1st downs with a TOP of 33.55.

I think part of the TOP was by design. Belichick dared the Bucs to run the ball. He wanted to take the air out of Brady's passing attack.And of course the Pats were in a bend, don't break defense.

But the turnovers affected the TOP too. Both turnovers were early in drives giving the ball back to the Bucs quickly.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

Brady in 2002 cannot be compared with QB's today in any way. 6.3 YPA was acceptable back then. Today you won't go far with a QB that plays that kind of game. It's the era of passing and big numbers and big stats. If the Pats wanted a checkdown charlie QB they didn't need to draft one in the first round, and they already have Stidham on the roster for that kind of role.

Stidham isn’t conducive for that type of role, he’s a typical big arm prospect. Stidham may not be an NFL capable QB and may not see a 2nd contract. We don’t know. What we do know is that he has 4 career interceptions (same as Jones) in 48 career passing attempts (Jones had 51 against the Saints), and couldn’t beat out Cam Newton in training camp or when he struggled on the field. Lots of other external options for a checkdown Charlie type, but Stidham isn’t it.

 

[sb1]

Stidham isn’t conducive for that type of role, he’s a typical big arm prospect. Stidham may not be an NFL capable QB and may not see a 2nd contract. We don’t know. What we do know is that he has 4 career interceptions (same as Jones) in 48 career passing attempts (Jones had 51 against the Saints), and couldn’t beat out Cam Newton in training camp or when he struggled on the field. Lots of other external options for a checkdown Charlie type, but Stidham isn’t it.

That's true he is a big arm guy. Was just trying to say that a checkdown guy would be free or close to it and wouldn't require a first round investment. I'd like to think Bill and Josh really believe Mac can make the throws. Guessing he probably has reins on him for now. I want to see him try though. So far he's leaving a few plays to be made on the field. If it means INTs so be it. INTs don't bother me too much for a rookie as they're getting up to speed on what works and what doesn't. If a rookie is playing it safe then it will take him a while to learn it.

Stid's problem is more what he does under pressure he doesn't seem to make great decisions. Was the same at Auburn.

 

[Spiral]

To me, the two most important skills for a QB in this system are accuracy and the ability to process information quickly. He has both of those skills. He can be a good QB in this system, even if he doesn't become a top-tier QB in the league. They need some blue or red-chip players on offense to be contenders.

 

[DarrylS]

I think part of the TOP was by design. Belichick dared the Bucs to run the ball. He wanted to take the air out of Brady's passing attack.And of course the Pats were in a bend, don't break defense.

But the turnovers affected the TOP too. Both turnovers were early in drives giving the ball back to the Bucs quickly.

By design or not, if you look at the TOP #'s to me it would indicate that the Pats were fairly efficient when they had the ball.

 

[Pats1971]

What about Brady having 6.6 YPA in 2019? The Pats got to the playoffs with that. And that was during this era. So was 2013 when he had 6.9 YPA. They got to the AFCCG then.

And I don't see Jones as a "checkdown Charlie". His time to release is up there at 2.67 seconds (11th in the league) and he has been moving up the ranks (I think he knocked one tenth of a second off his average this week). If he is constantly checking down, his time to release would be slower. That means he is more likely actually throwing to his primary target more often than you give him credit for, but the Pats are just calling shorter passing plays in part to bring the kid along slowly and also in part because the o-line sucks and if you start calling longer plays to develop, they are going to get the kid killed because of the o-line. They can't even run play action to give the play time to develop because the Pats can't run the ball. Your only proof that he is a "checkdown charlie" is the fact that his YPA is low. But that could be by design.

I am sorry. But until this o-line is fixed or teams decide they can't stop Jones by pressuring him, I don't see what he is doing as a bad thing. This offensive line is so bad that at least one starter from it has been benched each week this year. Jones isn't Lawrence, Fields, or Wilson who can consistently scramble out of the pocket and use his legs to buy time to let the play develop. He can sometimes step up in the pocket to buy time, but the way teams have been rushing him the last few weeks he doesn't have time to let the play develop to take shots down the field. Hell, the Pats have do misdirection plays just to buy time to even attempt deeper passes.

It's funny. Last week, I was having a debate with a Jones doubter who claimed Jones didn't have a fast enough release and the Bucs were going to make him turtle because they were going to get to him all night before he released the ball. Now you are basically arguing that he is giving up on his primary receiver too quickly and should hold onto the ball until the play develops.

And I never said he was a Brady clone. I am just showing that even an elite QB like Brady can have a really low YPA.

Most people didn't even want to see Jones on the field until after Sunday's game because he wasn't ready. Now people are starting to question if he has what it takes to be an NFL starter.

Why is the oline which is literally the same oline the pats have had for years, all the sudden suck with Jones? Maybe he has something to do with that.

 

[Pats1971]

Lots of stats floating around, but I trust my eyeballs more than anything else. What I see is a young, intelligent hard working QB with sufficient skills to continue to improve to the point where he will become elite.

At the end of any game it is about "moving the chains" & scoring points, on Sunday nite he did that well. The Pats had 20 1st downs with a TOP of 26:05, the Bucs had 22 1st downs with a TOP of 33.55.

Well the scoring points part is the issue. Pats were averaging 18 ppg which is horrid. They played tampa who has been giving up 30ppg through 3 weeks.....once again pats got 18 points. You are not going to win in the NFL scoring 18 ppg. The pats have not even played a very good defense yet.

 

[DarrylS]

Well the scoring points part is the issue. Pats were averaging 18 ppg which is horrid. They played tampa who has been giving up 30ppg through 3 weeks.....once again pats got 18 points. You are not going to win in the NFL scoring 18 ppg. The pats have not even played a very good defense yet.

Are you going to win if you score 19 Points??

 

[Rob0729]

Why is the oline which is literally the same oline the pats have had for years, all the sudden suck with Jones? Maybe he has something to do with that.

It isn't literally the same line. Onwenu is now playing guard instead of RT replacing Joe Thuney. They have have had a revolving door at RT. So 2/5ths of last year's online starting line up is different. Plus they lost Scar and another o-line coach.

But how do you think Jones is the reason for the offensive line playing do poorly.

 

[RelocatedPatFan]

Are you going to win if you score 19 Points??

Every time, if the opposing team scores 18 or less.

 

[Halifax_Pats_Fan]

I was gone for a year or more off this board after just being....i guess disillusioned after the hard and far fall from Brady to Cam.

i like Cam but for whatever reason it did not work out for him here. Some of the games were quite honestly hard to watch.

When Mac fell into Bill's lap I was like...i think we kinda got a chance here.

The kid is getting pummeled...lets just say it for what it is....but with him under center i have a bit of hope back. I like this kid, wish he would not be so hard on himself.

We need playmakers man, whether they are famous, or not, expensive or not, a rookie or not...we need playmakers.

Love our D, the O-line needs to get Mankins nasty. We need separation from the wideouts. Get nasty on the field man. We need to start running this damn ball. -1 and hung with the champs?...that is damn good.

So there is hope now i feel...we need to get back to .500 and play with urgency.

The Brady page for me officially turned Sunday.

Mac is now our guy. #OnToHouton...and beyond. LFG Mac!

 

[libra957]

His QBR needs work.

 

[sb1]

Mac fell to us for free. Can’t ask for anything better than how it played out. It’s 4 games in now and I hope we start to see some growth in the passing game soon. If the reins are on Mac I’d like to see them loosened a bit. Goes without saying that he needs much better protection in front. The Texans are bad so this would be a good week to start.

Could be a lot worse…we could have coughed up a 2022 first rounder for the right to draft Fields which is probably what it would have taken to move up into that spot… the same Fields that the Bears coaching staff as of last week wasn’t confident they want to start over an injured Andy Dalton. That’s what they think of him. Nuff said. And I think that move would have put me on Team #FireBill.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I like what I've seen so far. The guy has only started four NFL games, hampered by turnstiles in his O-line, especially on the right side, and what was supposed to be a formidable running game generally fizzling due to injury and said O-line. Still, he shows enormous poise that reflects years under Nick Saban and several months now under Josh.

I think the Pats brain trust has decided not to take off the training wheels and to minimize his risk of injury. The only reasons to do that are that they think he still needs to grow into the complete playbook and they don't want to risk damaging his body (and ego) with sack fests. I look for gradual improvement as the year goes on and for a half dozen or so wins.

I think it's pretty clear that he's already "the guy" for the foreseeable future if the criterion is solid QB who doesn't lose you games with mistakes or too many misreads and has his team competitive in nearly every game and for the playoffs every season. If the criterion is "elite," meaning taking his team to a couple of SB's, I think it's very possible, even probable, but we won't know for a while. TB12's only come along once in a generation...if then.