Gronk Reportedly Still Undecided On Playing Next Year:

[Jackson 2]

I won't go so far as to say a "holdout"- too early in the game for that.
But I do think his contract is an issue.
I don't believe for one second he's planning to retire.
After maybe his best season?
After he said he never felt physically better?
And after that SB loss?
No. Gronk is a competitor- he won't go out like that.
And why in the world would Gronk be having contract talks with BB right now if he's planning on retiring?
I think he's taking a good look at his long-term health, but like you ,Jackson, I also think his contract is the biggest issue.
Hopefully it works out.

I agree with you. When I wrote that I didn't think this would end well, I wasn't suggesting retirement. If Gronkowski continues on this path, he'll be traded.

 

[Jackson 2]

Probably not, but there has been a rare occasion or two where things were patched up after a holdout, here, if I’m not mistaken.

The Mankins situation comes to mind. I can’t remember all of the specifics, but didn’t Seymour hold out, too? Maybe around ‘05 or so?

See post #121.

 

[tom444]

..................I will absolutely not support the anti-vaccination-esque alt-science Brady or Guerrero push. It's absolute quackery, and it kills me that is appears that this BS is what is going to take down what was the greatest run in sports history.

You mean if you get a leg blown off in Afghanistan recovery PJs won't grow it back?

 

[jimnance]

I agree with you. When I wrote that I didn't think this would end well, I wasn't suggesting retirement. If Gronkowski continues on this path, he'll be traded.

Oh, I know Jackson. I agree with you as well.
I put the retirement remarks in there because there were several other posters pushing that and I just wanted to show the ridiculousness of their position.
I should have clarified that better. It's about the $.

 

[catent]

Show me a single peer-reviewed study on PubMed that provides any scientific basis for "muscle pliability" (hint: there is actually 0 that even discuss this). Show me a single article that shows that hydration can stave off sunburn, and not, you know, avoiding UV rays. Show me any evidence to support the absolutely ludicrous claims Brady and Guerrero make about electrolytes that are pretty much proven wrong your first day of medical school. The burden of proof isn't on the guy who says the sky is blue; it's on the guy who says the sky is green.
I don't give a damn but the "fitness and therapy industry" says...I want peer-reviewed articles from PhDs or MDs. There's is legitimately not a single article that substantiates Brady or Guerrero's claims.

Frankly, Tom Brady has bought more joy to my life than anyone else who isn't my significant other, close friend, or family. With that being said, I will absolutely not support the anti-vaccination-esque alt-science Brady or Guerrero push. It's absolute quackery, and it kills me that is appears that this BS is what is going to take down what was the greatest run in sports history.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

The muscle pliability/flexibility stuff is very likely credible and I would imagine, to some extent, helps one avoid injury and aids in recovery. Insofar as the electrolytes/hydration and sunburn, I tend to agree that claim seems far-fetched but I don't think the idea that staying properly hydrated would lead to better overall health is unreasonable.

Edit: here are multiple peer-reviewed studies on stretching and flexibility. It seems that your claim that no such peer-reviewed, scientific literature exists on the topic is false.

Stretching is effective for the treatment of orthopedic conditions or injury; however, as with other populations, outcomes may be based on the individual patient. Static stretching has been shown to be more effective than dynamic stretching for those recovering from hamstring strains. In addition, it has been reported that athletes with hamstring strains recover faster by performing more intensive stretching than by performing less intensive stretching. Patients with knee osteoarthritis can benefit from static stretching to increase knee ROM; however, PNF stretching may be more effective. Chow et al reported that total knee replacement patients benefited from 2 weeks of either static, dynamic or PNF stretching to increase ROM.

CURRENT CONCEPTS IN MUSCLE STRETCHING FOR EXERCISE AND REHABILITATION

RESULTS:
FR substantially reduced muscle soreness at all time points while substantially improving ROM. FR negatively affected evoked contractile properties with the exception of half relaxation time and electromechanical delay (EMD), with FR substantially improving EMD. Voluntary contractile properties showed no substantial between-group differences for all measurements besides voluntary muscle activation and vertical jump, with FR substantially improving muscle activation at all time points and vertical jump at POST-48. When performing the five FR exercises, measurements of the subjects' force placed on the foam roller and perceived pain while FR ranged between 26 and 46 kg (32%-55% body weight) and 2.5 and 7.5 points, respectively.

CONCLUSION:
The most important findings of the present study were that FR was beneficial in attenuating muscle soreness while improving vertical jump height, muscle activation, and passive and dynamic ROM in comparison with control. FR negatively affected several evoked contractile properties of the muscle, except for half relaxation time and EMD, indicating that FR benefits are primarily accrued through neural responses and connective tissue.

Foam rolling as a recovery tool after an intense bout of physical activity. - PubMed - NCBI

RESULTS:
There was a significant change in passive hip-flexion ROM regardless of treatment (F3,17 = 8.06, P = .001). Subjects receiving foam roll and static stretch had a greater change in passive hip-flexion ROM compared with the static-stretch (P = .04), foam-rolling (P = .006), and control (P = .001) groups.

CONCLUSIONS:
Our results support the use of a foam roller in combination with a static-stretching protocol. If time allows and maximal gains in hip-flexion ROM are desired, foam rolling the hamstrings muscle group before static stretching would be appropriate in noninjured subjects who have less than 90° of hamstring ROM.

Effect of foam rolling and static stretching on passive hip-flexion range of motion. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Deus Irae]

Peer-reviewed journal articles are the standard in the medical and scientific community for substantiating scientific claims. Please provide peer-reviewed journal articles that support Brady and Guerrero's alt-science regarding "muscle pliability." Here is a link to search for such articles: Home - PubMed - NCBI.

I'm not jumping into the overarching conversation, because the notion that there's no support to the notion of pliability being a help is absurd but, I had to chime in to laugh about the peer review angle.

Modern peer review is a joke, particularly when you move away from the hard sciences .

 

[Jackson 2]

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

The muscle pliability/flexibility stuff is very likely credible and I would imagine, to some extent, helps one avoid injury and aids in recovery. Insofar as the electrolytes/hydration and sunburn, I tend to agree that claim seems far-fetched but I don't think the idea that staying properly hydrated would lead to better overall health is unreasonable.

Edit: here are multiple peer-reviewed studies on the stretching and flexibility. It seems that your claim that no such peer-reviewed, scientific literature exists is false.



CURRENT CONCEPTS IN MUSCLE STRETCHING FOR EXERCISE AND REHABILITATION



Foam rolling as a recovery tool after an intense bout of physical activity. - PubMed - NCBI



Effect of foam rolling and static stretching on passive hip-flexion range of motion. - PubMed - NCBI

Free_Pacman just got his ass handed to him...

 

[catent]

Free_Pacman just got his ass handed to him...

And here's a peer-reviewed, scientific study on hydration:

Similar to physical performance, cognitive performance has been observed to decline at levels >2% body water loss (22,25), but recent research shows that mild dehydration (i.e. 1–2% body water loss) may impair cognitive performance (4,21).

The Hydration Equation: Update on Water Balance and Cognitive Performance

 

[primetime]

Yeah, the best con-men mix truth with received wisdom with outright lies. Guerrero seems to do it well. Stretching is obviously good for you, hydration is obviously good for you, though the extent to which these are good for you is difficult to isolate in experimental studies and may be overblown by anecdote. And the sunburn and concussion water and recovery pajamas stuff is all bunk, but it's tied up in enough real **** to sound convincing to people who are less skeptical.

Exercise and nutrition is pretty much 90% people doing **** some blogger told them about rather than because it's effective or anything (and those bloggers are getting paid for their posts). I suspect most personal trainers are utterly full of **** and just tell you what to do because they read about it in a magazine. The Patriots training staff's workout regimens are probably no more scientific than Guerrero's, they just stink less of a scam.

Nutrition science is, when not bought and paid for by industry, subject to gross scientific misconduct (google Brian Wansink). Red wine is either good for you, bad for you, or neither good nor bad for you. You can find studies that say all of the above, and none of them are any good (but that doesn't stop the NY Times from publishing front page stories about them without any caveats so that their specious scientific claims enter into public consciousness).

In the end, a lot of this stuff is religion. The sunburn sort of crap is on the far end of believability but there's often exactly as much evidence for it as there is for a lot of the kind of stuff people do as a matter of course when they're dieting or working out.

 

[neuronet]

Ummm did I just click on a Gronk thread?

 

[oceansizer]

Do not get me wrong but all this situation is a bit confusing. I am a strong supporter of Gronk but he is a pro and should clearly specifies his priorities. BB has a right to know what are his intentions to build a roster and plan who to draft. If Gronk wants to a new contract I am fine with it but please do not pretend like a child and say it loudly. If he wants to play elswhere I am fine but again - say it loudly. All I hate is playing hide and seek with the team. Let me get this straight, I want him back. However a team image is the most important to me.

 

[luuked]

A lot of people in the fitness and therapy industry are moving in the direction of the kind of things that Guerrero does. It's not just yoga and Pilates, but martial arts and various forms of modern "movement culture".

And then there's the other side -- that the Patriots don't have a good record of keeping their players free of ligament and muscle injuries, so it's not surprising that men putting their health on the line are looking for alternatives to training methods that have come largely from body-building.

You say that there is "virtually zero basis in scientific fact" for the kind of thing Guerrero does. It would be nice if you gave some ... you know, evidence for that.

That is all well and great except you are comparing the strength and conditioning regimen of a professional football player -- that plays an extremely violant position -- to "fitness" people.

There is a reason why BB/Cabrera want their TEs to do squats/specific weight training. Lower body strength is the key to many things a TE does.

Finally the last thing people can blame BB for is to not usually be on the cutting edge of things. So the reason why he sticks with the classic approach is because it is proven over many decades whereas Guerreros stuff still is mostly anecdotal in comparison.

 

[luuked]

Probably not, but there has been a rare occasion or two where things were patched up after a holdout, here, if I’m not mistaken.

The Mankins situation comes to mind. I can’t remember all of the specifics, but didn’t Seymour hold out, too? Maybe around ‘05 or so?

Can we wait with the holdout talk at least until anyone misses the first mandatory team activity ? The situation right now is like a teen soap and mostly posturing.

 

[catent]

One thing that puzzles me about this discussion is the fact that the bar Guerrero's methods must clear (in order to be approved of by various posters) is something along the lines of indisputable, peer-reviewed, scientific fact.

Yet the traditional training methods of the Patriots' strength and conditioning staff (and presumably many other football-related training staffs) are largely accepted without question, and seemingly without the same degree of scientific proof that folks are requiring of Guerrero and his methods.

Do we have bulletproof, verifiable evidence that the traditional training methods ubiquitous in the sport of football are actually beneficial? Or is all of this stuff regarding training/optimizing one's body for a given sport largely anecdotal and subjective in nature?

 

[supafly]

Can we wait with the holdout talk at least until anyone misses the first mandatory team activity ? The situation right now is like a teen soap and mostly posturing.

Any absences from a NEP offseason program are certainly worth noting, mandatory or otherwise.

 

[luuked]

Any absences from a NEP offseason program are certainly worth noting, mandatory or otherwise.

Noteworthy, yes.

Talking about a hold out which by definition is not about voluntary activities is still way too early.

 

[supafly]

Noteworthy, yes.

Talking about a hold out which by definition is not about voluntary activities is still way too early.

It may not be an “official” holdout, but it’s pretty close, especially in NE. It may as well be. It’s now become more than posturing. He is taking action in the attempt to secure a better payday. To take it one step further, isn’t there a quarter million dollars on the line which is dependent upon the amount of offseason participation?

 

[primetime]

One thing that puzzles me about this discussion is the fact that the bar Guerrero's methods must clear (in order to be approved of by various posters) is something along the lines of indisputable, peer-reviewed, scientific fact.

Yet the traditional training methods of the Patriots' strength and conditioning staff (and presumably many other football-related training staffs) are largely accepted without question, and seemingly without the same degree of scientific proof that folks are requiring of Guerrero and his methods.

Do we have bulletproof, verifiable evidence that the traditional training methods ubiquitous in the sport of football are actually beneficial? Or is all of this stuff regarding training/optimizing one's body for a given sport largely anecdotal and subjective in nature?

As I said above, it's almost all just religion.

 

[maineman209]

It may not be an “official” holdout, but it’s pretty close, especially in NE. It may as well be. It’s now become more than posturing. He is taking action in the attempt to secure a better payday. To take it one step further, isn’t there a quarter million dollars on the line which is dependent upon the amount of offseason participation?

Well, first of all, the date for the start of these first OTAs for the Pats wasn't announced until 3-4 weeks ago, IIRC. Secondly, BB said in his pre-draft presser that the team was aware that "a couple of players" wouldn't be able to attend Monday's start "due to prior commitments".

Pretty clearly, Brady's meet & greet with the troops in Qatar has been on the books for months. Gronk has been heavily involved in promoting the "Still Our City" campaign and some of the Marathon bombing memorials. I'm pretty sure his commitments to the relevant events weren't just scheduled last week.

Rather than getting all "OMG! Gronk not attending the start of (voluntary) OTAs!! What does this mean??!!", I've been wondering why TF the Pats felt compelled to schedule that start to coincide with Marathon Day, ever since the date was first announced. I'm sure that there are at least a few other Pats players who had planned to attend some of the related charity events or to attend the race itself to support friends or family who are running in it. It seemed pretty inevitable that it would create some schedule conflicts.

 

[maineman209]

One thing that puzzles me about this discussion is the fact that the bar Guerrero's methods must clear (in order to be approved of by various posters) is something along the lines of indisputable, peer-reviewed, scientific fact.

Yet the traditional training methods of the Patriots' strength and conditioning staff (and presumably many other football-related training staffs) are largely accepted without question, and seemingly without the same degree of scientific proof that folks are requiring of Guerrero and his methods.

Do we have bulletproof, verifiable evidence that the traditional training methods ubiquitous in the sport of football are actually beneficial? Or is all of this stuff regarding training/optimizing one's body for a given sport largely anecdotal and subjective in nature?

I don't even know what "Guerrero's methods" are, or how they may diverge from whatever the Pats' "traditional" training methods are.

What I do know, having been a marathon runner for a long time, is that there's no one single training method or set of techniques that is equally effective for everyone at all times. Imposing "traditional methods" OR imposing "Guerrero's methods" on every athlete, in every circumstance, for the entire length of their careers is likely to become counterproductive for at least some of them at one point or another.