The Media still HATES us even though we suck. Want Belichick gone bad.

[Rob0729]

Yeah, and in 2013 Manning had “the greatest offense of all time” throwing bubble screens against hapless nobodies before skating past an injury-ruined Pats teams in the AFCCG to get ****ing humiliated by Seattle

It’s like a time capsule back to arguing with delusional fools-gold loving Colts fans.

Stop changing the argument. You said that it obvious to anyone except for a small group of media people who are Manning rump swabs that Brady was the best QB in the NFL in 2004. Sorry that is false. That is all I am arguing.

If you didn't make ridiculous Brady fantasy rewriting history fanboy statements, I wouldn't take the Colts/Manning side of the argument.

 

[PATS16N0]

Gotcha. So in 2005 you were that guy saying, “THEY GOT A POINT GUYS. THIS MANNING GUY IS PRETTY GOOD.”

You’re even getting into horrendous takes on a retroactive level now lol

 

[sb1]

I am wrong about Warner. He was an undrafted free agent in 1994. He didn't make a roster that year. Ended up working in a grocery store until he caught on he caught on with a team in the Arena Football League (now defunct). He was so good in the AFL that the Rams gave him a shot in 1997 with their team in the NFL's European football league (now defunct). He played well enough in Europe that they gave him a shot on their regular roster.

Even though I was wrong about Warner, he makes my point so much better than if he was a career scrub. Warner had to prove himself in two now defunct league before he was given a shot in the NFL.

I guess I meant a scrub in his NFL career. He wasn't... took 2 different teams to a SB and won with one of them. Started his real NFL career as an MVP caliber player. Had a down period in between but that had more to do with injuries than talent. Marc Bulger's and Eli Manning's emergence led to his exit from the Rams and Giants.

As for Gannon, he was drafted by the Patriots and traded away to the Vikes because the Pats wanted him to play WR. He didn't play a game until three years later in relief of Wade Wilson who was injured. He played ok, but demoted to third string the following year. Played poorly in a couple of games in relief and was benched that year. Was traded to the Redskins and was mediocre before he got injured. Didn't play the following year. Spent two years on the Chiefs as Elvis Grbac's back up but played really well in a few games when Grbac was injured. Then he went to the Raiders eleven years after he was drafted.

IIRC Gannon had a lot of injuries mid career and even missed a whole season. Still a winning record with the Vikings I think. You're right that he played well in KC he led them to the playoffs but Grbac came back and they were eliminated. If he kept playing who knows. Even though he peaked laster in his career in Oakland I still don't think I'd call him a scrub. Unless you consider Flutie to have had a scrub career before peaking? I don't think a lot of us would agree with that.

As for Brady coming into the league, he "barely" made it into the league because UM made a huge mistake in how they evaluated Tom vs a more athletic Henson and that kind of thinking carried over to scouting reports. I think today's athletes are evaluated for more than just their athleticism.

 

[203Pat]

Yes, it was dumb luck. And yes, it was in place and went against the Patriots in a game vs. the Jets. It was the correct call for a bad rule. It doesn't change anything Brady or the Patriots' legacy. The fact is teams benefit from bad rules and dumb luck is part of the NFL.

And stop giving me some hidden agenda. I only mentioned it because another poster that Brady was the most clutch QB in the NFL right from the start. The tuck rule play was an unclutch play by Brady in a big moment. There is nothing wrong accepting that. Doesn't change that Brady was the greatest of all time.

Lol so a rule you don't like = dumb luck? The NFL has tons of stupid rules but in the end of the day they are followed until they get changed. And yes, Brady was clutch from day one. He led them back against San Diego down 10+ for a win in OT in his first couple of starts. He had a comeback win against the Jets that year if I remember correctly. Then in the post season he led them on multiple scoring drives in the snow against Oakland and obviously in the Super Bowl drove them down the field while former hall of fame coach, John Madden, said they should just play for OT. Brady was always clutch.

 

[PATS16N0]

Madden was already regularly mentioning Brady’s Montana vibes every Patriot game he called in 2002. Rob is looking at stat sheets 20 years later and saying crazy things.

 

[Rob0729]

He led the league in touchdowns in 2002. He was 6th in passing yards and 10th in TDs in 2003. He was 10th in passing yards and 6th in TDs in 2004. He was 1st in passing yards and 3rd in TDs in 2005. He was 7th in passing yards and 5th in TDs in 2006 with one of the worst offenses he ever had around him.

This revisionist history that Brady was just carried by his defense is the last thing Team Bill has to cling onto. Were the defenses great? Yes, of course, but so was Brady from the start.

Yes, he a great QB. Thanks for posting stats backing up my point. You are posting stats showing Brady is a top 5-10 QB in the league. Not an elite one.

If you don't admit the defense carried the team in 2003, you are not being truthful. The Pats had a slightly above average offense and an all time great defense. There were three games the Pats won where the offense scored 12 points or less. The Patriots scored 348 points that year or 21.8 PPG. Of those points, 42 of them came from defensive TDs. Without those defensive TDs, the Pats scored 19.1 PPG and that is before you factor the special teams TDs that year.

But this isn't Belichick. You guys are turning this into a debate about Belichick. My point was that in today's day and age, a player like Brady probably doesn't get a shot in the NFL and never makes a roster. All the other stuff is you guys moving the goalpost.

 

[PATS16N0]

2002 Brady since half of us are just 2019 Shannon Sharpe koolaid drinkers now.

 

[Rob0729]

Lol so a rule you don't like = dumb luck? The NFL has tons of stupid rules but in the end of the day they are followed until they get changed. And yes, Brady was clutch from day one. He led them back against San Diego down 10+ for a win in OT in his first couple of starts. He had a comeback win against the Jets that year if I remember correctly. Then in the post season he led them on multiple scoring drives in the snow against Oakland and obviously in the Super Bowl drove them down the field while former hall of fame coach, John Madden, said they should just play for OT. Brady was always clutch.

The rule was removed because it is based on dumb luck and it was a bad rule. Brady clearly pulled the ball down and had no intention of throwing it, but because he was holding it with two hands in front of his body and hadn't pulled it back into his body the refs ruled he was still in the act of throwing the ball. That is dumb luck. It ok to admit it.

 

[Rob0729]

I guess I meant a scrub in his NFL career. He wasn't... took 2 different teams to a SB and won with one of them. Started his real NFL career as an MVP caliber player. Had a down period in between but that had more to do with injuries than talent. Marc Bulger's and Eli Manning's emergence led to his exit from the Rams and Giants.

IIRC Gannon had a lot of injuries mid career and even missed a whole season. Still a winning record with the Vikings I think. You're right that he played well in KC he led them to the playoffs but Grbac came back and they were eliminated. If he kept playing who knows. Even though he peaked laster in his career in Oakland I still don't think I'd call him a scrub. Unless you consider Flutie to have had a scrub career before peaking? I don't think a lot of us would agree with that.

As for Brady coming into the league, he "barely" made it into the league because UM made a huge mistake in how they evaluated Tom vs a more athletic Henson and that kind of thinking carried over to scouting reports. I think today's athletes are evaluated for more than just their athleticism.

My point with Warner and Gannon was that they bounced around for a long while before they showed they could be elite QBs. And I was saying that in today's age where teams don't value pocket passers anymore, they may never have gotten a chance to prove it. Warner was in the era of the pure pocket passer and he still couldn't make NFL roster and if he was a draft prospect today, he would have been doomed to bagging groceries for the rest of his life since there is no long an AFL or European league to prove himself.

And I am not really debating why Brady was rated poorly by teams coming out of college. I am just saying in today's day in age, a player like Brady coming out with the book on him that he had would likely never make it on an NFL team since so few teams want pocket passing QBs.

 

[Rob0729]

Madden was already regularly mentioning Brady’s Montana vibes every Patriot game he called in 2002. Rob is looking at stat sheets 20 years later and saying crazy things.

LOL! I am saying crazy things? You said he was the most clutch QB in the NFL the second he replaced Bledsoe.

 

[PATS16N0]

He was. Who was more clutch than Tom in 2001 who marched the entire length of a football field to win the Super Bowl? Lol

Manning? Lol

 

[PATS16N0]

According to Rob this man was not the most clutch quarterback in the league in 2001.

 

[PATS16N0]

Are you trying to make it easy?

 

[Rob0729]

According to Rob this man was not the most clutch quarterback in the league in 2001.
View attachment 53888

He was clutch in the Super Bowl. Without watching all the QBs play in all the situations, you cannot say that. You are basing on on drive. And I pointed out a clutch situation which would have ended the Patriots post season where Brady himself admits he wasn't clutch and was bailed out by a bad rule.

It is ok to admit that Brady is a mortal man and didn't come out of the womb a god. Brady was good and not great in 2001. He stepped up in the most important situation of that season and should be commended for it. Doesn't mean we should rewrite history and make his entire season be like that one drive.

 

[PATS16N0]

He did exactly what he did in 2001-2004 what he did his entire pro career and whenever he was called in to save Michigans ass. This is just getting sad now.

 

[sb1]

My point with Warner and Gannon was that they bounced around for a long while before they showed they could be elite QBs. And I was saying that in today's age where teams don't value pocket passers anymore, they may never have gotten a chance to prove it. Warner was in the era of the pure pocket passer and he still couldn't make NFL roster and if he was a draft prospect today, he would have been doomed to bagging groceries for the rest of his life since there is no long an AFL or European league to prove himself.

And I am not really debating why Brady was rated poorly by teams coming out of college. I am just saying in today's day in age, a player like Brady coming out with the book on him that he had would likely never make it on an NFL team since so few teams want pocket passing QBs.

Not sure about that last part. Mac Jones is a pocket passer. So is Justin Herbert, Jared Goff and Derek Carr and Jimmy. I'd even say Burrow is a pocket passer, he doesn't have the speed to be anything else. They're in the NFL and valued highly by their teams. They have a place in the league. Don't see why a 2001 Brady clone wouldn't easily make it.

 

[203Pat]

Yes, he a great QB. Thanks for posting stats backing up my point. You are posting stats showing Brady is a top 5-10 QB in the league. Not an elite one.

If you don't admit the defense carried the team in 2003, you are not being truthful. The Pats had a slightly above average offense and an all time great defense. There were three games the Pats won where the offense scored 12 points or less. The Patriots scored 348 points that year or 21.8 PPG. Of those points, 42 of them came from defensive TDs. Without those defensive TDs, the Pats scored 19.1 PPG and that is before you factor the special teams TDs that year.

But this isn't Belichick. You guys are turning this into a debate about Belichick. My point was that in today's day and age, a player like Brady probably doesn't get a shot in the NFL and never makes a roster. All the other stuff is you guys moving the goalpost.

If you look at the passing leaders in Brady's first few seasons the only other QBs consistently in the mix at the top were Manning, Favre, and then Trent Green (first couple), Marc Bugler (second couple). I have no problem calling Manning and Favre elite in that era but Brady is right there with them.

Per football database, in 2003 the Patriots had the 9th ranked passing offense per game and the 27th ranked rushing offense. So Brady was the reason that offense was "slightly above average" and was carrying the offense in his third season as a starter on a Super Bowl team. That defense was great but Brady was far from just along for the ride.

 

[203Pat]

The rule was removed because it is based on dumb luck and it was a bad rule. Brady clearly pulled the ball down and had no intention of throwing it, but because he was holding it with two hands in front of his body and hadn't pulled it back into his body the refs ruled he was still in the act of throwing the ball. That is dumb luck. It ok to admit it.

I fully admit it is a stupid rule but so is the catch rule and fumbling the ball through the end zone is a touch back and numerous other rules. If anything it should be a point in Bill's favor that he knew enough to challenge it.

 

[Rob0729]

Not sure about that last part. Mac Jones is a pocket passer. So is Justin Herbert, Jared Goff and Derek Carr and Jimmy. I'd even say Burrow is a pocket passer, he doesn't have the speed to be anything else. They're in the NFL and valued highly by their teams. They have a place in the league. Don't see why a 2001 Brady clone wouldn't easily make it.

In 2000, I think every team in the league had a pocket passer (at least by today's standards) as their starting QB. Maybe a handful were mobile QB.

In 2023, what maybe a third of the league have pocket passers as starting QBs. Maybe less. That is my point. Most teams don't value a pocket passer anymore. That is why guys like Trey Lance and Justin Fields get drafted high in the first round. They were drafted purely on their raw physical talent and not that they had proven that they had what it took to be NFL QBs.

 

[sb1]

Brady had IT from day one. That's the "IT" we are hoping to see from Mac but haven't yet.

No chance a team starts 0-2 looking feeble then switches to another QB, then 14-3 the rest of the way with a championship without the new QB being someone very special.