Felger will love this: CHFF calls Moss the 2008 Patriots MVP

[Funktopus]

Oddly enough, many of Moss' long receptions have come after we've run (or Welker'd, as the case may be) the ball a bunch of times. I'd have to say, looking at the reception and yards totals, the threat of Wes Welker really shortens the field for Mr. Randy Moss.

And I'd be more comfortable calling Moss our MVP if I saw him contest jump balls more frequently, instead of trying to basket-catch everything.

But the field shortening happens after the game has progressed as if that was the defense's plan B where plan A was to prevent Moss from burning them.

In my mind this is the problem with measuring the Moss effect. It seems to me that the effect that Moss has pre-snap/pre-game is not measurable by stats but the contribution to victory here is huge.

Include me in the group that's mystified by all the basket catching too. He's what 6'5"? can't he leap for some of those passes?

-F

 

[Satchboogie3]

But the field shortening happens after the game has progressed as if that was the defense's plan B where plan A was to prevent Moss from burning them.

In my mind this is the problem with measuring the Moss effect. It seems to me that the effect that Moss has pre-snap/pre-game is not measurable by stats but the contribution to victory here is huge.

Include me in the group that's mystified by all the basket catching too. He's what 6'5"? can't he leap for some of those passes?

-F

Yes, I've wondered that at times too. He occasionally goes up for the ball if he sees its going to be short. I think he tries to not give anything away to the DB by not reaching out for the ball until it is near his hands. We've seen him just reach out at the last second to pull it in, thus the DB wouldn't know where the ball was unless he looks back himself. Also, I believe he does it to give himself the best chance to break away after the catch and get in the endzone.

 

[jbb9s]

if someone could help with this tidbit: I do remember reading that in terms of single season TD receptions, Moss has 4 of the top 6 season ever. Obviously last year as #1, and two or three years in Minny as #3,4,6 with Rice in there as #2.

 

[Deus Irae]

Deus,

What's up with you? You're usually a much better poster than this from what I've seen. Satch and others have stated thier opinions and provided evidence to support those opinions and all you've done is say they're wrong as if you are the final arbiter.

Provide some evidence for your opinion man.

SpiderFox, Satchboogie edited his post. He was originally claiming that half of Welker's catches were only made because Moss was opening up the field for him. He then removed the "half" and put in "many". Now, if you think that pointing to 3 plays, 2 of which aren't even examples of anything specific to Moss because they are plays run by teams all over the league and are designed to work precisely as they did in the examples given, is quality evidence of that "half" argument, I don't know what I could possibly do to convince you otherwise.

Look, some people choose to believe that Moss is this team's MVP. That's fine with me, and an argument (not a great one in my mind, but a rational one) can be made for it. However, trying to inflate the argument by claiming, essentially, that the reason Welker made half of his receptions is because Moss drew off coverage is unsupported by what I've seen this year. It must also be unsupported by what Satchboogie has seen, too, since he went back and edited that claim out.

Your one argument of Moss not being on top offenses 3-10 has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. All that stat proves is there are other players in the league besides Moss that know how to play and score points.

I wasn't the one who first brought up the scoring records so, if it's off-topic in your mind, take it up with BradyFTW!, who went down that road in post #24.

 

[Deus Irae]

There are soooo many things wrong with this that I don't even know where to begin... but I will.

First, you said "lob pass in the endzone". Right there you basically just said all the QB has to do is just lob the ball up in the endzone and Moss will come down with it... that would mean Moss basically did all the work and is basically uncoverable in the endzone. Thats right!

That's a function of height, and pretty much any tall receiver can do what Moss does when it comes to lob passes. Some do it better than others because of how they use their body to seal off the back side of the pass, but the success or failure of the lob pass into the endzone depends mainly upon the accuracy of the quarterback's throw.

Second, ["I could just as easily point out that Welker is the league leader in receptions and claim that "answers it"". ] The point of the offense is to SCORE points. That is correct, yes? So would it make sense that the most important player would be the one who is able to actually SCORE points? You don't get points for the number of receptions you have or yards you get, you get points for scoring TDs. Also, Moss is close to Wes in yards, yet he has a ton fewer receptions...

Welker and Moss have different roles on the team. Welker moves the chains and makes the tough catches over the middle. Moss threatens the outside and downfield portions of the field. However, without Welker moving the chains to get the team downfield, Moss wouldn't have his 11 touchdown receptions. It's a symbiotic relationship with the game's best outside receiver and the game's best slot receiver helping each other out.

Really, though, I can't stress enough the fact that SCORING is the point of an offense, and that is where Moss is absolutely lethal.

And just for the record, a slot receiver has a FAR easier job getting open than a #1 WR.

You're far too hung up on who actually puts the ball in the endzone. There's more to offense than just that. The field is 100 yards long, and you have to move the ball in order to score.

To use an analogy, Welker is the singles hitter who sets the table, steals bases and puts one sort of pressure on the pitcher, and Moss bats cleanup, hitting homeruns and long sacrifice flies and putting a different type of pressure on the pitcher. They are both the best at what they do, and neither one would be as effective if the other went down.

 

[Satchboogie3]

SpiderFox, Satchboogie edited his post. He was originally claiming that half of Welker's catches were only made because Moss was opening up the field for him. He then removed the "half" and put in "many". Now, if you think that pointing to 3 plays, 2 of which aren't even examples of anything specific to Moss because they are plays run by teams all over the league and are designed to work precisely as they did in the examples given, is quality evidence of that "half" argument, I don't know what I could possibly do to convince you otherwise.

Look, some people choose to believe that Moss is this team's MVP. That's fine with me, and an argument (not a great one in my mind, but a rational one) can be made for it. However, trying to inflate the argument by claiming, essentially, that the reason Welker made half of his receptions is because Moss drew off coverage is unsupported by what I've seen this year. It must also be unsupported by what Satchboogie has seen, too, since he went back and edited that claim out.




I wasn't the one who first brought up the scoring records so, if it's off-topic in your mind, take it up with BradyFTW!, who went down that road in post #24.

I didn't go back and edit that out, I went back and changed the timeframe's to be more accurate with the video. Of course not all of the plays I showed were directly about the Moss effect, I was simply breaking down the plays in the video I posted.

But seriously, what numbers, other than receptions, does Welker have a significant edge over Moss?

I'd also argue that the offense didn't start to "click" until Cassel starting hitting Moss in the deep game.
Here are some stats to digest:
Moss averages week 2-9 (I'm throwing out week 1 because most of Moss's yards were from Brady in the first quarter)
32 receptions 420 yards 13.13 yds/rec 3TD 60 yds/game

Week 10-16:
30 receptions 459 yards 15.3 yds/rec 7TD 65.5 yds/game

- The Patriots are 6-1 in games Moss scores at least a TD and 9-1 in games Moss has 50+ yards

- The Patriots are 1-4 in games Moss has less than 50 yards receiving

 

[Deus Irae]

I didn't go back and edit that out, I went back and changed the timeframe's to be more accurate with the video. Of course not all of the plays I showed were directly about the Moss effect, I was simply breaking down the plays in the video I posted.

So you're now claiming that you didn't originally credit half of Welker's receptions to Moss drawing the coverage?

But seriously, what numbers, other than receptions, does Welker have a significant edge over Moss?

Well, he's got 10 more first downs and averages about 9 more yards per game, and a 41 reception difference is pretty darned significant when you're arguing what you are. Moss has also fumbled 3 times, while Welker's only fumbled once. I can't find official stats on dropped passes (although I found a site which I would call unofficial, which has Moss with 6), but I'm quite sure that Moss has more than Welker. That same site (iWon - NFL League Stats) has Welker 7th in the AFC in %passes caught/target and tied for 10th in the AFC in 1st downs made on 3rd down, both numbers are better than Moss'. This should, of course, come as no surprise. They are different types of receivers filling different roles, something you keep glossing over.

I'd also argue that the offense didn't start to "click" until Cassel starting hitting Moss in the deep game.

Naturally, the offense improved when it was able to more successfully incorporate one of its two best receivers. Not surprisingly, that same offense came to a standstill in Pittsburgh once Welker was knocked out of the game.

Here are some stats to digest:
Moss averages week 2-9 (I'm throwing out week 1 because most of Moss's yards were from Brady in the first quarter)
32 receptions 420 yards 13.13 yds/rec 3TD 60 yds/game

Week 10-16:
30 receptions 459 yards 15.3 yds/rec 7TD 65.5 yds/game

- The Patriots are 6-1 in games Moss scores at least a TD and 9-1 in games Moss has 50+ yards

- The Patriots are 1-4 in games Moss has less than 50 yards receiving

One could look at the Chargers and Steelers games and make a reasonable claim that Moss' failings as a WR in those games are what led to the Patriots losing. That argument would go something like "The Patriots are 0-2 in games where Moss completely gas-pipes easy passes that would otherwise have been huge plays."

The Patriots are undefeated this season in games that Tom Brady starts. Maybe he should be voted MVP.

 

[Xzibit23]

It would be better if this didn't dissolve into a Moss vs. Welker thread. But fwiw, the most overrated statistic for a WR is receptions. Its inflated and doesn't tell you anything unless you add a yardage figure to the catch, which is why the only 2 stats I use for WRs are Yards and TDs.

 

[Xzibit23]

if someone could help with this tidbit: I do remember reading that in terms of single season TD receptions, Moss has 4 of the top 6 season ever. Obviously last year as #1, and two or three years in Minny as #3,4,6 with Rice in there as #2.

He has 3 of the top 6 seasons:

#1 - 23 TDs - Moss 2008
#2 - 22 TDs - Rice 1987
#3 - 18 TDs - Clayton 1984
#5 - 18 TDs - Rice 1990
#5 - 17 TDs - Moss 1998
#5 - 17 TDs - Moss 2003

He's the only player to appear 3 times in the top 10, no one even appears twice besides Rice. I also don't think there's any receiver playing today who even appears on the list ONCE, but I would have to check that. Whats more, Moss would've had FOUR top 10 seasons cause his 15 TD season in '01 barely misses the top 10.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I'd say that Welker is the MVP this season simply because he makes so many crucial 3rd down grabs and keep the chains moving. Moss is undoubtedly a big factor in the offense's succes though. And the numbers don't really matter to him as long as he is winning. I think that's the thing that people underestimate the most about Moss. They got the wrong image of him from his Oakland days. Moss' attitude, intelligence, and abilities have all been pluses as a Patriot. The Patriots signing Moss to an extension was the best move they could have made. And the fact that Randy agreed to a fair but not exorbitant deal to remain in New England speaks a lot of him as Randy Moss, the person.

 

[Satchboogie3]

I'm not saying Moss has been perfect, he has had a couple of bad drops and the 3 fumbles do suck, but you can't honestly say that is reason enough to not have him MVP.

Yes, Welker is very important at moving the chains, but so is Moss. As I have highlighted, Moss actually has a higher percentage of first downs, 66.5% of his receptions are for first downs, 16% higher than Welker.

Also, if it was so easy for a 6-4 receiver to catch lob passes for TD, you would see more guys with 10+, 15+ TDs a year... you don't. He is a scoring machine because he is practically uncoverable. How many times have we seen him getting doubled in the endzone, the pass is just lobbed up, and Randy jumps over the defenders and snatches the ball from in front of them...

The point is that Moss has just 10 fewer first downs than Welker, while having a much higher percentage compared to receptions. He is less than 150 yards shy of Welker in yards and Moss is the one who is scoring.

The other thing is, who is the biggest threat to score whenever he catches the ball...

Now I love Welker and I DO agree that he is an important part of our offense, but simply saying that without him we wouldn't get to the endzone is just ridiculous. You can say that (correctly) about every team in the NFL. You can't just have one WR out there, they all need to contribute. The point is, though, that Moss is the most dangerous and most important WR out there.

Also consider this. Why, if Welker is the most dangerous WR on the team, would teams STILL focus on shutting down Moss with double/triple coverage all game while allowing Welker to be in 1-on-1 or zone coverage and getting 7 receptions a game? I'll give you the answer. It's because teams realize that if it is Moss that is getting 7+ receptions a game, they have no chance.

Some more stats for you:
Welker has averaged 2.2 first downs per game in his career, Moss 3.5 per game.
Welker has averaged 44 rec yards per game in his career, Moss 78.
Welker has averaged 0.15 TD per game, Moss 0.80.

The numbers don't lie. Moss has just 10 fewer first downs than Welker, just 150 less yards, but more than 4 yard per receptions and an incredibly important 8 more TDs than Welker. Oh yeah, and he has the job of facing the best CB and double/triple coverage all game while Welker gets his 1-on-1 (often with linebackers) or zone.

 

[Xzibit23]

There are 2 ways of evaluating the team MVP: a)you can measure performance along with ability or b)you can use raw performance and effect on the game irrespective of the players ability.

If you use the former, Welker is the obvious MVP choice, he has raised his game more than any other player on the team this year, more than even Cassel. While Moss has had a good season, its nothing spectacular considering he's Randy Moss and he COULD have had a better season, we all know that. He's had a couple of uncharacteristic drops and fumbles, he could easily have had a 1200 Yd - 15 TD season. Welker has done everything humanly possible with the ability he has.

Now, if you want to go solely on their effect on the team, then it becomes dicy. Statistically, Welker has more yards but Moss has more TDs.Welker has been more consistent, but Moss has been more consistently double-teamed. Welker is who Cassel looks to when the team needs a 1st down, Moss is who he looks to when the team needs a TD. I would give Welker a sliiiiiiiight edge, although Satchboogie's team stats when Moss scores a TD and has 50+ Yds is pretty damming evidence. Basically when Moss shows up, the team wins.

 

[BradyFTW!]

So really, what numbers are you talking about?

Imaginary ones, I think.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I wasn't the one who first brought up the scoring records so, if it's off-topic in your mind, take it up with BradyFTW!, who went down that road in post #24.

The fact that he wasn't even on offenses 3-10 is irrelevant. Nobody in the entire history of the league has been on offenses 3-10. The fact that he has been the top receiver on offenses 1 and 2, however, and is the only one that has been on both, is very significant. I may be wrong, but I don't think that Spiderfox was saying that the entire subject matter was irrelevant- just your attempt at rebutting my point.

Also, one of Moss's fumbles was the last play of the Colts game, as he attempted to lateral the ball. Pretty irrelevant, given the subject matter that we're discussing. IIRC, his other fumble lost was in the first game of the season, on the same play where Brady went down. Can't remember the third fumble off the top of my head.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm not saying Moss has been perfect, he has had a couple of bad drops and the 3 fumbles do suck, but you can't honestly say that is reason enough to not have him MVP.

I said that an argument could be made the Moss is the MVP, although I don't agree with that notion. Welker, Faulk, Cassel and Wilfork all have a better claim to the title in my opinion, for various reasons. Having said that, when a wide receiver arguably costs you 2 of your 5 losses, which one could say Moss has, I think that's actually a pretty acceptable reason to markdown in the MVP voting.

Yes, Welker is very important at moving the chains, but so is Moss. As I have highlighted, Moss actually has a higher percentage of first downs, 66.5% of his receptions are for first downs, 16% higher than Welker.

Why would this be any other way? Again, you keep glossing over the fact that they play different roles. Moss is the downfield threat. Therefore, more of his completions SHOULD result in first downs.

Also, if it was so easy for a 6-4 receiver to catch lob passes for TD, you would see more guys with 10+, 15+ TDs a year... you don't. He is a scoring machine because he is practically uncoverable. How many times have we seen him getting doubled in the endzone, the pass is just lobbed up, and Randy jumps over the defenders and snatches the ball from in front of them...

There were 21 players with 10+ touchdown receptions last season. I'm not really sure how many you think there should be.

The point is that Moss has just 10 fewer first downs than Welker, while having a much higher percentage compared to receptions. He is less than 150 yards shy of Welker in yards and Moss is the one who is scoring.

The other thing is, who is the biggest threat to score whenever he catches the ball...

But all of your points are as would be expected in any statistical matchup of a deep threat against a short threat if one assumed the general use patterns. Welker SHOULD catch more passes, and the percentage of them going for first downs SHOULD be lower than Moss'. Welker SHOULD have a catch rate per target, and SHOULD have fewer touchdown receptions. Moss SHOULD be the bigger threat to score when he catches the ball because he'll have fewer defenders between him and the goal line.

Now I love Welker and I DO agree that he is an important part of our offense, but simply saying that without him we wouldn't get to the endzone is just ridiculous. You can say that (correctly) about every team in the NFL. You can't just have one WR out there, they all need to contribute. The point is, though, that Moss is the most dangerous and most important WR out there.

You were doing great right up until that last sentence. New England won 3 Super Bowls with a Welker/Brown/Branch type of wideout, and has won 0 Super Bowls with Moss. In New England, the most important wide receiver is the one that's open.

I've said on numerous occasions that I think Moss is the best receiver in the league, but best receiver does not equal MVP.

Also consider this. Why, if Welker is the most dangerous WR on the team, would teams STILL focus on shutting down Moss with double/triple coverage all game while allowing Welker to be in 1-on-1 or zone coverage and getting 7 receptions a game? I'll give you the answer. It's because teams realize that if it is Moss that is getting 7+ receptions a game, they have no chance.

There you go again, changing the terms of the discussion. Welker is 'dangerous' (your word) in one way, Moss is 'dangerous' in another. You just don't want to accept that the two receivers are playing very different roles. Welker couldn't play Moss' role, and Moss couldn't play Welker's role.

Some more stats for you:
Welker has averaged 2.2 first downs per game in his career, Moss 3.5 per game.
Welker has averaged 44 rec yards per game in his career, Moss 78.
Welker has averaged 0.15 TD per game, Moss 0.80.

But none of these stats mean anything in the context of this discussion. Furthermore, they are going to be slanted in favor of Moss because Welker's path to his current state was much different than Moss', as Moss came into the league as a dominant force while Welker developed over a period of years.

The numbers don't lie. Moss has just 10 fewer first downs than Welker, just 150 less yards, but more than 4 yard per receptions and an incredibly important 8 more TDs than Welker. Oh yeah, and he has the job of facing the best CB and double/triple coverage all game while Welker gets his 1-on-1 (often with linebackers) or zone.

The numbers don't lie, but they also don't mean what you are claiming they mean, either.

 

[Deus Irae]

The fact that he wasn't even on offenses 3-10 is irrelevant. Nobody in the entire history of the league has been on offenses 3-10. The fact that he has been the top receiver on offenses 1 and 2, however, and is the only one that has been on both, is very significant. I may be wrong, but I don't think that Spiderfox was saying that the entire subject matter was irrelevant- just your attempt at rebutting my point.

My comment was that Correlation does not equal causation. You brought up the irrelevant argument about the top scoring seasons. My rebuttal becomes completely relevant to your argument, because if the causation equaled correlation in the manner you were claiming, Moss would have the top 10 scoring offenses in history and would be working on #11 this year.

Also, one of Moss's fumbles was the last play of the Colts game, as he attempted to lateral the ball. Pretty irrelevant, given the subject matter that we're discussing. IIRC, his other fumble lost was in the first game of the season, on the same play where Brady went down. Can't remember the third fumble off the top of my head.

Moss has 3 fumbles, Welker has 1. Unless you're debating those numbers, it's not irrelevant at all.

 

[ikeman20]

I'm not saying Moss has been perfect, he has had a couple of bad drops and the 3 fumbles do suck, but you can't honestly say that is reason enough to not have him MVP.

Yes, Welker is very important at moving the chains, but so is Moss. As I have highlighted, Moss actually has a higher percentage of first downs, 66.5% of his receptions are for first downs, 16% higher than Welker.

Also, if it was so easy for a 6-4 receiver to catch lob passes for TD, you would see more guys with 10+, 15+ TDs a year... you don't. He is a scoring machine because he is practically uncoverable. How many times have we seen him getting doubled in the endzone, the pass is just lobbed up, and Randy jumps over the defenders and snatches the ball from in front of them...

The point is that Moss has just 10 fewer first downs than Welker, while having a much higher percentage compared to receptions. He is less than 150 yards shy of Welker in yards and Moss is the one who is scoring.

The other thing is, who is the biggest threat to score whenever he catches the ball...

Now I love Welker and I DO agree that he is an important part of our offense, but simply saying that without him we wouldn't get to the endzone is just ridiculous. You can say that (correctly) about every team in the NFL. You can't just have one WR out there, they all need to contribute. The point is, though, that Moss is the most dangerous and most important WR out there.

Also consider this. Why, if Welker is the most dangerous WR on the team, would teams STILL focus on shutting down Moss with double/triple coverage all game while allowing Welker to be in 1-on-1 or zone coverage and getting 7 receptions a game? I'll give you the answer. It's because teams realize that if it is Moss that is getting 7+ receptions a game, they have no chance.

Some more stats for you:
Welker has averaged 2.2 first downs per game in his career, Moss 3.5 per game.
Welker has averaged 44 rec yards per game in his career, Moss 78.
Welker has averaged 0.15 TD per game, Moss 0.80.

The numbers don't lie. Moss has just 10 fewer first downs than Welker, just 150 less yards, but more than 4 yard per receptions and an incredibly important 8 more TDs than Welker. Oh yeah, and he has the job of facing the best CB and double/triple coverage all game while Welker gets his 1-on-1 (often with linebackers) or zone.

.........so you are still going back and forth with this guy after he said any tall receiver can do what moss does......why??????

 

[Deus Irae]

.........so you are still going back and forth with this guy after he said any tall receiver can do what moss does......why??????

Probably because you're taking what I said out of context and blowing it up to be more than what I clearly intended:

That's a function of height, and pretty much any tall receiver can do what Moss does when it comes to lob passes. Some do it better than others because of how they use their body to seal off the back side of the pass, but the success or failure of the lob pass into the endzone depends mainly upon the accuracy of the quarterback's throw.

I was referring to a specific type of throw/catch and it included a statement that some are better at it than others. The lob pass in the endzone is roughly the equivalent of the entry pass in basketball when the defender is fronting the offensive player, except the receiver can't anchor himself to maintain the space.

 

[spacecrime]

some of you guys are missing the point:
Moss' effect does NOT show up in the stat sheet!

Excellent point, but I fear it will be ignored due to the fact that only stats count in the era of Fantasy Football. Selfless team play wins games, but does not get respect from most fans because they do not understand.

 

[Satchboogie3]

I said that an argument could be made the Moss is the MVP, although I don't agree with that notion. Welker, Faulk, Cassel and Wilfork all have a better claim to the title in my opinion, for various reasons. Having said that, when a wide receiver arguably costs you 2 of your 5 losses, which one could say Moss has, I think that's actually a pretty acceptable reason to markdown in the MVP voting.

Yes, you could argue that Moss probably cost us the Pit loss. You could also just as easily argue that Moss has won us a bunch of games on his own. (2nd Miami game comes to mind). It certainly is a valid argument though and one I can't really understate. Moss hasn't played as well as he could, but that doesn't mean Welker has played better. A less than the best Moss is BETTER than a great season from Welker. Don't make the mistake in thinking that a guy who plays as good as he can makes him better than a legend playing a little under his capabilities.

Why would this be any other way? Again, you keep glossing over the fact that they play different roles. Moss is the downfield threat. Therefore, more of his completions SHOULD result in first downs.

YES! The whole reason I posted that was because you were claiming that the offense couldn't move the chains without Welker. Clearly, that isn't the case. Moss is just as important at moving the chains as he is in the redzone.

There were 21 players with 10+ touchdown receptions last season. I'm not really sure how many you think there should be.

Ok, maybe I should have elaborated on this a little more. Yes, about 2/3 of teams have a WR with 10+ TD in a season, but not many have 15+. ALSO, there are very few WR who consistently get 10+ TDs every season.

But all of your points are as would be expected in any statistical matchup of a deep threat against a short threat if one assumed the general use patterns. Welker SHOULD catch more passes, and the percentage of them going for first downs SHOULD be lower than Moss'. Welker SHOULD have a catch rate per target, and SHOULD have fewer touchdown receptions. Moss SHOULD be the bigger threat to score when he catches the ball because he'll have fewer defenders between him and the goal line.

Yes, Welker SHOULD catch more passes as a slot receiver, and thats one of the reasons I'm not so amazed with his season COMPARED to Moss. Again, the #1 WR on the team SHOULD be the most important if they do their job. Moss has done his job.

Also, you are DEAD wrong about Moss in the endzone. Teams AGAIN focus on shutting down Moss with double coverage... they just can't. Moss simply is too good. Moss manages to get open or just beat the defense in the endzone while Welker can't (as easily).

You were doing great right up until that last sentence. New England won 3 Super Bowls with a Welker/Brown/Branch type of wideout, and has won 0 Super Bowls with Moss. In New England, the most important wide receiver is the one that's open.

I shouldn't even comment on this. This is a copout argument. In the Superbowl Moss got open several times downfield, but Brady didn't ever have the time to make an accurate pass. Also, don't forget that it was Moss that caught the go ahead TD with less than 2 minutes to go. It was the defense that couldn't hold the lead.

I've said on numerous occasions that I think Moss is the best receiver in the league, but best receiver does not equal MVP.

If he plays well enough to be the best receiver in the league (yes, other WR have had better seasons), how is he not the best receiver on this team?
Since I'm talking about this, I'll also go back to where you mentioned that Brady was the MVP last year and not Moss. I was one of the people who was hoping for both to be named MVP. I don't think it is just coincidence that Brady goes from a career high 28-14 TD/INT ratio and averaging about 3800 yds a season to 50-8 TD/INT ratio and 4800 yds when Moss joins the team. Lets all remember that Moss caught 23 TD passes, plenty of which were just balls chucked up for Moss to make a play on.

There you go again, changing the terms of the discussion. Welker is 'dangerous' (your word) in one way, Moss is 'dangerous' in another. You just don't want to accept that the two receivers are playing very different roles. Welker couldn't play Moss' role, and Moss couldn't play Welker's role.

Yes, I have said all along that both are dangerous. One is more dangerous than the other, though. Welker is the best slot receiver in the game. He is as tough as the come and great for YAC. However, he pales in comparison to arguably the greatest WR to ever play in the NFL.

You're also right that Welker couldn't play Moss' role, but I would argue that Moss could play Welker's role. Actually, I think Moss would be far better slot receiver than Welker, but it would be insanely stupid to use him as a slot rather than a #1. I have seen Moss turn a simple screen into a 60+ yard TD many times throughout his career.

I LOVE Welker, but trying to say that he is more important to a team than the GREATEST WR of all time (Ok, 2nd behind Rice) is just insane. If you don't get it by now, I don't think you ever will.