PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

Even BB does not know what Jimmy G's future holds


Status
Not open for further replies.
So my source was reading done over 30 years ago but I did find some 'sources exploring subject:

http://wiki.c2.com/?GrandMasterEliminatesWrongMoves


They also see patterns that most don't recognize:

Science secret of grand masters revealed : Nature News

Grandmasters don’t see pieces, they see patterns

Now apply this to how BB operates analyzing a roster knowledge of relative values of positions players how a player can be replaced which positions give the highest value and so on, using his training as an economist combined with his vast knowledge of football tens of thousands of hours watching tape being in game situations and so on.

Thanks 13, those were good reads, and I like your analogy regarding pattern recognition (and second-order pattern recognition; patterns about patterns, as the first author says). That was my main question - whether you believed the pruning function to be conscious (i.e., internally narrated) or unconsciously provided.

It's interesting that at the time of this writing the author, apparently a software engineer, can declare OCR, voice, and face recognition to be easily solved problems, and not use the example of changes in voice or expression, across a universe of faces and voices, being recognized in the same "second-order" way (searching the first pattern for stress, deception, fatigue, etc.) I know that this was the next step (and not as easily solved as "whose face is that.") I wonder if that qualifies as a pattern about a pattern in this rubric, and also about whether yet another order can be posited regarding recognition in the study of crowds and their outward behavior. There would be patterns unavailable in the study of the individual of course (e.g., how we automatically rearrange ourselves in an elevator, or for that matter, on the street;) But there would also be available cues from the second-order study of individual expression, body language, and/or tone of voice, as encountered with multiple individuals present. Just wool-gathering. These are all "automatic" functions for a human, and some do it better than others.
 
I'll let 13 speak for himself but to your point... that's absolutely consistent with what I've observed regarding Brady, and what every quarterback has to achieve/accomplish. Somewhere earlier on this thread he's quoted as saying something to the effect of the game finally slowing down for him so much that he can have some fun. That analogy is used a lot, "the game slowing down" (relative to the player's cognition).

Since we don't have MRIs or some better technology (I don't think) showing the QB's reactions in-game (just occasionally some dumb helmet-cam,) we don't know what's happening in the brain, but I bet it's different from what's happening in the brain of a rookie who just can't process it all (or a crappy QB who just never gets to the level of mastery TFB is at.)

I think what we'd say with TFB is that he's going through his reads, complete with possibilities that aren't in the play as drawn up, figuring in the behavior of the defense, whether it is/isn't the coverage he initially read, who's succeeding and failing in which assignments, etc., all of which he's visually acquiring and processing. You wouldn't call that a "narrative" process, although a commercial a few years back did an "inside Peyton Manning's mind" thing, where he's talking himself through some small part of such a process. But I dunno, you'd have to ask Brady, and/or measure somehow what he thinks is going on vs. what's actually going on.

I think that process, often happening over just a few seconds (for Brady) isn't a plodding exercise in thought as much as in-the-moment reaction - patterns are getting recognized in bunches, fed to his conscious mind half-processed, and informing decisions (next read, throw now, come back after checking next read, etc.) all very quickly.

I dunno. Just like I'm not a chess grandmaster, I'm not a QB. It seems that even at lower levels you can't be thinking through everything a QB does in a step-by-step narrative; it's digested for you, first through film study and practice, then, additionally, by the tells you see on the field.

The BB case is different - he's calling the game at the strategic level (or checking the calls of his OC and DC) and in periods like right now, he's plotting moves that happen in contract-pursuit time, not game-time. There is a lot more time for strategery (not to mention reams of statistics, which can play into playcalling but has to be "grokked" by a QB at a subconscious level in-game to be useful.)
Sounds like an opportunity for the producer of Being John Malkovich to start production on a new movie.
 
Still searching on the neuroscience side but all the research stuff is behind paywalls... and I'm stuck with psychology ptoday and Discover...
 
I'll chime in on how the brain recognizes patterns which is well explained for the layman (which I am) in the book "On Intelligence" by Jeff Hawkins.

There are six levels in the brain which deal with increasing layers of recognition complexity. The simplest level may recognize lines. The next may put those lines together to recognize a shape. The third level may do some simple interpretation of that shape e.g. seeing it as a letter. The next level would recognize a whole word; the next a sentence and so on.

When something is not recognized at a high level, the brain pushes it back down to a simpler level. Naturally, this takes time and the brain is not very fast at all especially when compared with computers nowadays (figure one to two tenths of a second at a minimum).

What Tom Brady is saying from a brain perspective is that his brain is recognizing the patterns he is seeing on the football field without having to push it back to a simpler level. This type of recognition takes a lot of training and practice. That's why it takes a very long time to master most skills e.g. playing an instrument professionally requires many thousands of hours of practice.

In summary, Tom Brady has put in the practice and his brain's recognition skills are at an extremely high level for the defenses he typically plays against.

I studied the interception he threw in the Super Bowl. The defense was very complex with the robber in the middle of the field switching robber responsibilities with an outside defender who made the interception when the man he was covering cut into the middle of the field towards the original robber.

This was a very sophisticated defense and hard for any quarterback to read, particularly if he did not play against it very often. Given the defense, I wasn't surprised that Brady threw an interception there; most any quarterback might have mis-diagnosed the defense. Just a very good - and unusual- defense by Atlanta.
 
Few things about BB and Brady both are football 'grandmasters, they see the game very well based on years of seeing the game at a different level than the average fan. Now the game plan is developed seeing the other teams patterns and how they play.

We hear analyst talking about how the Patriots have a different game plan each week, we see that other teams merely do what they do, see the Steelers. When BB creates a roster the flexibility to adapt to the teams they will face is of paramount importance. He also understand the roles that injuries play in football and how it affects depth and flexibility of the roster.

I get upset when a player gets injured, he takes it for granted that some players will get injured and when they do you adapt since there is no other choice. Whe BB is creating a roster and working with the salary cap all this stuff is in the miz and other things I am leaving out, Like the cap number for each position, and how that is distributed, his comments about the types of physical types that are difficult to find, the ones he will pay top dollar for. The sort of football that will allow the player to thrive in this locker room.

Another talent is visualizing how a players skill set will fit on the roster he is creating. I was struck when some free agents discussed meeting BB (Rodney Harrison for example) and BB would talk about how he warmed up and described how he visualized using hom in the D. For some veterans who have been in bad situations imagine how you would feel where after many years a coach puts you in a position to succeed by using your skill set correctly. We also see what he values in the draft.

I laugh at the draft nick obsessions of some fans. Whe I look at a Patriots draft I try to see What BB is saying about the teams needs now and a couple of years down the road, which FA will be high priority ect.


So in addition to being a brilliant game manager on both sides of the ball, he understands how to build a roster that can get through the season and have the flexibility to put the team in the best position to win regardless of the style/talent of the opponent.

Brady has a simpler job to look at one side of the ball andunderstand how they will attack that side of the ball. This is where he knows the answers on the test before taking the test. In the SB the Falcons threw out how they had played D most of the year and went to mostly man coverage, the playsheet and game plan was designed to attack a zone team running a lot of cover three concepts. It took some time to get the plays that would work against man coverage in the game and toss a lot of the plays out that wasn't going to work against the way Atlanta was playing D credit Quinn and his staff for that.


BTW I will bet that E Adams has a 'grandmaster' view of the game and seeing patterns a couple of levels deep.

So what this all means is we are damn lucky to be fans with this sort of Coach/GM. QB .
 
I'll chime in on how the brain recognizes patterns which is well explained for the layman (which I am) in the book "On Intelligence" by Jeff Hawkins.

I have to look at that... I was thinking brain structures, i.e., you know the amygdala has to be firing when a great QB senses pressure in the pocket, but at the same time that firing is suppressed or countered... another set of pathways forms for each "kind" of pressure you feel, as you convert awareness of/fear of pressure to useful information wired into counter-strategies... from "I can buy time by stepping right" (never spoken in the mind of course,) to this pressure from this player in this defensive set-up is correlated with the Y receiver being open often, look for the Y but 5 yards right of the expected route... because that's what the Y does in the pattern that resulted in the specific form of pressure (strong form of the argument)... or just "Step to the right, no biggie" in the weak form.

You know structures involved in non-verbal pattern recognition (especially visual) have to be firing like crazy. I just wish I knew more about how these patterns are interacting.

One example of one structure that would have to be either going nuts or uninvolved (see rest of paragraph) would be Brodmann's area 25, apparently a little doohickey that's the gate for the memories you "need" and "don't need" at a given moment... depressives can be treated w/deep brain stimulation here, the idea being that they continually dwell on a memory or many memories that should be screened... what's his Brodmann's 25 doing during a given play? Or are episodic memories, those involving narrative, inimical to the in-the-moment task (as we so often hear...) Is Brodmann's 25 gating off episodic memory like crazy in a good athlete or are these memories simply atrophied while on-field? Does this habit of thought become generalized? I.e., would we find that episodic memory is weak in high-performing athletes? If so, is that a matter of the pathways that would not be reinforced, because of the need for good athletic performance... or would such a trait predict better performance to begin with? Strong episodic memory, I believe, is linked with learning for most people... that is, hippocampal conversion of short-term to long-term memory... so I think (but don't have enough knowledge to assert) that it would be a byproduct of converting study of the playbook to the think-it-through stage of getting the new play down. Brady the grandmaster, of course, recognizes the new pattern quickly and easily - does this byproduct episodic memory not get stimulated, or is episodic memory being really efficiently filtered? (Just a f'rinstance). It's also interesting to me how, importantly, the Pats work to take ego out of the player, while other teams want to "play with emotion," which seems like it would be correlated with episodic memory.

There's a little chunk of the thalamus that seems to be responsible specifically for recall of declarative memory - e.g., memorizing and reciting the list of the 50 states... if you damage it, declarative memory goes to hell, but other forms of memory are more or less undamaged... how important is/is not this area?

There are six levels in the brain which deal with increasing layers of recognition complexity. The simplest level may recognize lines. The next may put those lines together to recognize a shape. The third level may do some simple interpretation of that shape e.g. seeing it as a letter. The next level would recognize a whole word; the next a sentence and so on.

When something is not recognized at a high level, the brain pushes it back down to a simpler level. Naturally, this takes time and the brain is not very fast at all especially when compared with computers nowadays (figure one to two tenths of a second at a minimum).

I have to look this up. I am wondering whether he is describing "layers" of thought or of literal brain function... e.g., the occipital lobe receives the info from the retinas, but it also processes information - so line-to-letterform might happen there (like I said, I'm really dumb about most of this stuff.) But then you'd go somewhere else for what letter the letterform is (I think,) possibly over to the Wernicke's area for speech recognition (think about reading out loud as a child, or moving your lips while reading, as an adult Jets fan). Speed reading is in large part the process of getting Wernicke's area out of the way, I think; you don't subvocalize, you scan for patterns, and you let the pattern-recognition bits of your brain deal with content. Your memory of visual/auditory patterns is over in the temporal lobe, but back in the posterior parietal cortex you have a chunk responsible for synthesizing somatosensory and visual input... It would seem that if we are looking for a "place" for pattern recognition it's going to be a network of the whole shootin' match... I did find this, however... and am diving in...

Superior pattern processing is the essence of the evolved human brain

And p.s., here's something a little less boring than above, confirming the earlier analogy of the chess grandmaster to the athlete (i.e., elimination of "bad moves." I think it misdiagnoses the chess achievements of computers, or we simply expect them to win the way humans do... it says that once the computer could consider more combinations than grandmasters, the computers were winning... Well that makes sense when you specify that Deep Blue used full frontal assaults on all combinations, but the first article on human grandmasters emphasized pruning the tree or this author might be using shorthand. Anyhow, it spends a paragraph on what a QB has to read...

Humans Are the World's Best Pattern-Recognition Machines, But for How Long?

What Tom Brady is saying from a brain perspective is that his brain is recognizing the patterns he is seeing on the football field without having to push it back to a simpler level. This type of recognition takes a lot of training and practice. That's why it takes a very long time to master most skills e.g. playing an instrument professionally requires many thousands of hours of practice.

Famously approximated at 10,000 hours by Gladwell, although I'm sure that doesn't carry weight once you compare skills to be mastered... and sadly, you have to use it or lose it, at the high levels. You don't forget how to ride a bike, but you forget how to play an instrument (well) when you first come back to playing. (Pablo Casals and all that.)

In summary, Tom Brady has put in the practice and his brain's recognition skills are at an extremely high level for the defenses he typically plays against.

Yep. I think using the reading analogy above, you could say that nothing's going over to Wernicke's area; you're just reading, speech doesn't come into it. "Read and react" as it were. But in reading, you're also moving what you see into long-term memory schemas so that each page isn't some novel concept. Similarly Brady's building schemas throughout the game while all the "one play at a time" processing is going on (more like "one step per player at a time")

I studied the interception he threw in the Super Bowl. The defense was very complex with the robber in the middle of the field switching robber responsibilities with an outside defender who made the interception when the man he was covering cut into the middle of the field towards the original robber.

This was a very sophisticated defense and hard for any quarterback to read, particularly if he did not play against it very often. Given the defense, I wasn't surprised that Brady threw an interception there; most any quarterback might have mis-diagnosed the defense. Just a very good - and unusual- defense by Atlanta.

That's interesting - the analog is false pattern recognition, like seeing a face on the moon or animals in cloud shapes. In fact, it's that much more complex, because a DC spent time making you falsely recognize a pattern.

I think Brady's gotten to where, as you say, he's reading everything at a very high level... I just want to see what's lighting up during the game LOL... PET scans and fMRIs for every play d%#*!@t!
 
Few things about BB and Brady both are football 'grandmasters, they see the game very well based on years of seeing the game at a different level than the average fan. Now the game plan is developed seeing the other teams patterns and how they play.

We hear analyst talking about how the Patriots have a different game plan each week, we see that other teams merely do what they do, see the Steelers. When BB creates a roster the flexibility to adapt to the teams they will face is of paramount importance. He also understand the roles that injuries play in football and how it affects depth and flexibility of the roster.

Or famously, the Seahawks...

I get upset when a player gets injured, he takes it for granted that some players will get injured and when they do you adapt since there is no other choice. Whe BB is creating a roster and working with the salary cap all this stuff is in the miz and other things I am leaving out, Like the cap number for each position, and how that is distributed, his comments about the types of physical types that are difficult to find, the ones he will pay top dollar for. The sort of football that will allow the player to thrive in this locker room.

Another talent is visualizing how a players skill set will fit on the roster he is creating. I was struck when some free agents discussed meeting BB (Rodney Harrison for example) and BB would talk about how he warmed up and described how he visualized using hom in the D. For some veterans who have been in bad situations imagine how you would feel where after many years a coach puts you in a position to succeed by using your skill set correctly. We also see what he values in the draft.

Visualization and motivation centers, going back to TFB, must have been firing like hell during that SB. It wasn't "whether" that confetti was coming down it was "how," but of course, he went to the important part (unlike us fans), how this feat was going to take place. And he got that across to the team to the extent they needed his leadership in visualizing the comeback.

More impressive than anything I saw in the coverage after the game was that none of the Pats seemed to have thought they were in a hole they could not get out of. They could visualize the result, and with that, the small steps on the way to the result.

I laugh at the draft nick obsessions of some fans. Whe I look at a Patriots draft I try to see What BB is saying about the teams needs now and a couple of years down the road, which FA will be high priority ect.

So in addition to being a brilliant game manager on both sides of the ball, he understands how to build a roster that can get through the season and have the flexibility to put the team in the best position to win regardless of the style/talent of the opponent.

Yeah I enjoy seeing the drafniks go at it too, and the prescriptions for success - various body types that we need. He's obviously looking at how to use a skill set. Welker was a fantastic example. BB "overpaid" in draft picks for this marginal slot guy with return skills. He knew how he'd use those skills though and the rest is history.

When you see TFB talk Xs and Os with BB it's like a language neither of them has to examine to share. I re-saw "BB A Football Life" and there's a moment when Tom comes in and explains an idea he has. I've never seen a QB come in with that level of confidence, he's "running it by" BB, but more talking it over w/an equal than relating to a boss. All business. They agree, Tom leaves the office.

But their jobs are different to your points above and below. BB is using the traditional narrative "logic" as well as pattern recognition skills at all times - and he works in slower chunks of time (although when you're on the clock, it probably seems like you need to slow time down, stacks of cards, whiteboards, and laptops be damned).

Brady has a simpler job to look at one side of the ball andunderstand how they will attack that side of the ball. This is where he knows the answers on the test before taking the test. In the SB the Falcons threw out how they had played D most of the year and went to mostly man coverage, the playsheet and game plan was designed to attack a zone team running a lot of cover three concepts. It took some time to get the plays that would work against man coverage in the game and toss a lot of the plays out that wasn't going to work against the way Atlanta was playing D credit Quinn and his staff for that.

I think there was an overall energy computation in mind as well, just one more dimension in how you beat a small, emotional team on their own habits of expending energy. Things as small as lining up guys in different places become a weapon when you see Atl. has committed to man, and you know that the tired D is a goal. Zone-beating went out the window, but the energy deprivation was in play before the remainder of the problem was solved. In the end that dimension proved important.

BTW I will bet that E Adams has a 'grandmaster' view of the game and seeing patterns a couple of levels deep.

So what this all means is we are damn lucky to be fans with this sort of Coach/GM. QB .

Agreed on both counts. Although E Adams might be a host from Westworld with "bulk apperception" dialed all the way up.
 
Thats really the gist of (most of ) it. TB is highly likely to still be one of top 3 qbs in 3 years. Of course, theres no way JG can be here that long-he would never agree to that and the Pats would never pay a backup qb big big money for that long.

And due to the abysmal qb class in the draft, combined with the need of a bunch of teams-the demand for JG will NEVER be as great as it is now-and the Pats leverage will never be greater.

As Ive said many times, Id like nothing better than to keep JG until TB retires. But thats fantasy. Theres just no way for that to happen. The Pats COULD keep JG for one more year-as insurance-but theyll lose a LOT of leverage and they will not get a 1st rounder for him then. Part of the attraction teams have for JG is the fact they get him for one year really cheap now. I think theres about a 75% chance they trade him this offseason, 24.9% chance,they keep him thru 2017 season THEN trade him and a 0.1% chance hes on the team after start of 2018 season.


That concept is crazy if you think about it. A Team would never pay multiple picks for some one who can walk away after a year simply to keep a cheap contract. They would certainly pay him big time and long term, as soon as, or even before, they acquired him.

JAG will be even more valuable a year from now with even more experience.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


MORSE: Patriots Draft Needs and Draft Related Info
Friday Patriots Notebook 4/19: News and Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf’s Pre-Draft Press Conference 4/18/24
Thursday Patriots Notebook 4/18: News and Notes
Wednesday Patriots Notebook 4/17: News and Notes
Tuesday Patriots Notebook 4/16: News and Notes
Monday Patriots Notebook 4/15: News and Notes
Patriots News 4-14, Mock Draft 3.0, Gilmore, Law Rally For Bill 
Potential Patriot: Boston Globe’s Price Talks to Georgia WR McConkey
Friday Patriots Notebook 4/12: News and Notes
Back
Top