Elite Defense if no major injuries?

[Brady6]

On paper, this defense looks better than last year, so yes--there is obvious potential to be top 5.

I'm not sure if Hightower will play at the Mike though, as there are plenty of reasons to have Mayo move back to MLB, and play Collins at weak side. That should allow them both to play to their strengths more.

I imagine that we'll see different lineups with the LBs.

We could go with more of a hybrid 3-4/4-3 –

SOLB-Ninkovich, Buchanan
DT-Kelly, Easley, Armstead
NT-Wilfork, Siliga, Jones (DT)
RE-Jones (DE), Smith, Moore
SILB-Hightower, Beauharnais
WILB-Mayo, TBD
WOLB-Collins, TBD

 

[Brady6]

Hightower needs to play at 255 at the most. This is a passing league n league of qb sprinters. Look how packer Defense was gutted 4 like 200 yards rushing by a qb. Aside from the passing game that requires MLB's 2 drop n b quick 2 close on rb's te's n even wr's in the passing game, your lb's MUST b able 2 cut off a darting qb n try 2 prevent the first down or at least cut him off n prevent the big long run. Chances r if we should make the Superbowl we Weill play sf or the hawks. Those qbs can n will drop over 100 yards on u including game changing plays. Every elite 4-3 lb is 235-250. There r none playing at 270. Hightower must gain a couple steps if he is 2 take his game to the next level and at least honorable mention when listing the best lbs.

Hightower was playing out position last season, he does not belong in coverage, he is belongs close to the line of scrimmage where he can use his combination of size and speed to make plays in the backfield. He losing 15lbs is not going to improve his lateral speed enough to make him capable of playing sideline to sideline.

Jones should add 10-15 lbs of muscle and maybe even lean out by 10 lbs. He is almost there as an elite rusher. Half step quicker n a little stronger I think shows up in his game. He is good,but shut down way to often. He works hard with his brother who knows the advantage of being as strong as u can at your most productive weight ratio.

I disagree with you on Jones, I have seen you write this several times about him not being lean enough and I do not see it. He is 6’5” 270lbs with minimal body fat, I think 280lbs would be ideal for him.

Collins is plenty lean n quick,he just needs 10-12 lbs of muscle. He is explosive,athletic n powerful 4 his weight already. A little more muscle n he could hit double digit sacks from his old spot. Not many teams would stop him on a blitz.

If you want Collins to gain that much weight, how much weight would you recommend Von Miller gain?

 

[Kontradiction]

Hightower was playing out position last season, he does not belong in coverage, he is belongs close to the line of scrimmage where he can use his combination of size and speed to make plays in the backfield. He losing 15lbs is not going to improve his lateral speed enough to make him capable of playing sideline to sideline.

Unfortunately, unless the Pats get their hands on a quality LB after all the cuts are made prior to the season, Hightower can't switch to DE because their LB depth is not good enough. I would love to see him playing DE, at least situationally. IMO, that's a better fit for him.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Another X-factor is if Chandler Jones goes from a very good player to an elite player in the mold of Robert Quinn or Cameron Jordan in their third years.

Regardless of Wilfork or Kelly's health (IMO, Siliga/Easley would be serviceable in the interior), the addition of Revis and Jones becoming an All-Pro should make this an elite defense. Browner/Wilfork/Kelly are gravy. The CB trio of Revis-Dennard-Arrington would still be top 3 in the league even without Browner.

 

[Marqui]

Our pass rush will absolutely make or break this defense this year.

No, haven't you heard? You don't actually need pass rush if your secondary is good.

 

[VrabelJr]

Another X-factor is if Chandler Jones goes from a very good player to an elite player in the mold of Robert Quinn or Cameron Jordan in their third years.

Regardless of Wilfork or Kelly's health (IMO, Siliga/Easley would be serviceable in the interior), the addition of Revis and Jones becoming an All-Pro should make this an elite defense. Browner/Wilfork/Kelly are gravy. The CB trio of Revis-Dennard-Arrington would still be top 3 in the league even without Browner.

The gravy, also known as depth, is what you need to sustain being an elite defense.

 

[Jrik83]

Unfortunately, unless the Pats get their hands on a quality LB after all the cuts are made prior to the season, Hightower can't switch to DE because their LB depth is not good enough. I would love to see him playing DE, at least situationally. IMO, that's a better fit for him.

I think they can completely afford to do this in the subsets. Mayo (barely) and Collins are better in coverage anyway. If they wanted to slide him up to DE and kick Jones inside a handful of times a game they could get away that.

 

[Jrik83]

No, haven't you heard? You don't actually need pass rush if your secondary is good.

I'm not sure I've seen anyone make this claim. I think the major claim is the better secondary should inflate the pass rush numbers.

 

[Brady6]

Unfortunately, unless the Pats get their hands on a quality LB after all the cuts are made prior to the season, Hightower can't switch to DE because their LB depth is not good enough. I would love to see him playing DE, at least situationally. IMO, that's a better fit for him.

I liked the way he was used as a rookie. He was used at the SAM in a 4-3 and SOLB in a 3-4. That works to his strengths, he was a few yards off the line on the shoulder of the opponents TE. His skill set and playing style compares to Brooks on the 49ers in my opinion. Last season he was playing WILL LB that is not his game, he isn't a sideline to sideline LB.

I agree that the LB position is an area of concern. I would have loved a Jordan Tripp or Christian Kirksey but it didn't happen. Maybe Beauharnais is a stud, he had good workout numbers.

Dates: 03/13/13
Height: 6007
Weight: 240
40 Yrd Dash: 4.67
20 Yrd Dash: 2.74
10 Yrd Dash: 1.61
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 19
Vertical Jump: 33
Broad Jump: 09'10"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.20
3-Cone Drill: 6.99

 

[SHOWTIME15]

For once I'd like to see the defense outplay the offense and really carry this team to a title. The pieces are there....

 

[mayoclinic]

On paper, this defense absolutely has the ability to be a top 5 unit. Whether they actually play to that level remains to be seen, but the talent and depth is there.

Very few teams have the talent and depth that the Pats have at DT or in the secondary. Given how Chris Jones, Sealver Siliga and Joe Vellano played last year and they are likely at the bottom of the depth chart behind Vince Wilfork, Tommy Kelly, Dominique Easley and Armond Armstead, few teams have that kind of talent or depth at DT. And the Pats have 7 DBs capable of playing at a solid level or better: Darrelle Revis, Brandon Browner, Devin McCourty, Alfonzo Dennard, Logan Ryan, Kyle Arrington (in the slot) and Duron Harmon. Again, few teams have that kind of depth, or that much quality talent. Add in 2 solid DEs in Chandler Jones and Rob Ninkovich and 3 very good LBs in Mayo, Hightower and Collins, and we have at least 12-13 guys capable of playing at a starting level, and another 3-4 who can get quality reps and not be a liability. Very few teams have that kind of depth, or so few holes.

Of course there are questions: Wilfork's health, depth at DE and LB, and the safety position, for starters. If Wilfork can recover to a meaningful level, if Michael Buchanan can develop, if Will Smith can contribute, if the Pats can find depth at LB, and if the safety position gets sorted out, then things will be a lot clearer. But all teams have issues, question marks or holes right now, including some of the other potential top 5 defenses:

- Seattle: lost 5 quality players in Chris Clemons, Red Bryant, Clinton McDonald, Brandon Browner and Walter Thurmond. Depth at DB and DL is much thinner than it has been in the past. Take a look at this breakdown of the defensive roster and see how many holes there are, or areas where they are counting on guys with no prior experience to provide depth:

http://espn.go.com/blog/seattle-seahawks/post/_/id/6194/seattle-defense-position-by-position

- San Francisco: Navorro Bowman is coming off a horrific injury and will probably miss half the season; Aldon Smith could be suspended; the secondary lost Donte Whitner and Carlos Rodgers and has a bunch of new pieces; Justin Smith can't go on forever.

- Carolina: Greg Hardy had a major off field incident and could face discipline, or be a distraction. Almost the entire secondary left in FA.

- Arizona: lost a key player in MLB Karlos Dansby, and LB Daryl Washington could be facing discipline.

- Cincinnati: lost their DC, and a key piece of their dominant DL in FA DE Michael Johnson.

- Tampa Bay: added some nice talent in DE Michael Johnson, DT Clinton McDonald and CB Alterraun Verner but lost CB Darrelle Revis. They have a lot of new parts and a new defensive scheme to adjust to.

- NY Jets: they have no secondary, despite using a 1st round pick on Calvin Pryor.

It's too early to tell how the Pats' D will come together, but they lost no key players on defense other than Aqib Talib, who they upgraded with Darrelle Revis, and they have as much or more depth and talent as just about any team in the NFL.

 

[CheeseMonkeys]

Darrelle Revis being healthy and productive is paramount to the success of the Defense. When Talib was hurt, there were many issues. If Revis isn't quite Revis this year, or he's injured, then I expect there to be some difficulties. A healthy Revis could spell elite for our defense, especially if other pieces fall into place.

 

[patsfaninpa]

I prefer Hightower as the SAM in the 4-3. Then, when we go nickel slide over to stand-up olb/de replacing Ninkovich. We use the nickel over 50pct of the time. That's really your base defense.

DL - C. Jones, D. Easley, ?Armstead/Kelly/Jones and Hightower. I have Ninko coming out in the nickel. Wilfork/Silver Slugger and T. Kelly playing dt on 1st down and start to sub on 2nd and 3rd. Armstead could be a big help in our nickel package. Should be able limit the snaps on all our defensive tackles. Hope they last for the long haul. I think Easley plays on 2nd and 3rd down immediately.

LB - J. Mayo and J. Collins when we go nickel. Concerned about depth.

DB - I think L. Ryan will be our 3rd cb once Browner comes off suspension. Awesome depth in Dennard and Arrington. I have Harmon starting opposite McCourty with Chung and J. Thomas the backups. 5th db a battle between Ebner and Tavon Wilson. Don't really like either as a safety. Good on ST.

A tremendous upgrade in the secondary. More depth too. The days of Edelman checking Boldin are over. If the DL is healthy, I feel there's a pretty good upgrade in talent and most defintely depth too. Haven't even mentioned Will Smith yet. I think we have a chance to be outstanding on defense.

 

[Brady6]

These are some of the biggest positives that are under the radar.

-Jones entering year 3.
-Hightower entering year 3.
-Dennard entering year 3, and for the first time doesn't have a pending court case as a distraction.
-Collins entering year 2.
-Ryan entering year 2.
-Harmon entering year 2.
-Buchanan entering year 2.
-McCourty entering his second full season at safety.

 

[Sicilian]

These are some of the biggest positives that are under the radar.

-Jones entering year 3.
-Hightower entering year 3.
-Dennard entering year 3, and for the first time doesn't have a pending court case as a distraction.
-Collins entering year 2.
-Ryan entering year 2.
-Harmon entering year 2.
-Buchanan entering year 2.
-McCourty entering his second full season at safety.

I think people (including myself) forget how young this defense was last year, particularly once the vets went down with injuries. There were a lot of first and second year players getting significant snaps last year. If half of them take the next step, this defense is improved from that alone.

 

[varjao]

This is an appropriate thread. Including the If on the subject. That's a point I'm thinking about recently.

I've seen too many "if" and "healthy", "when healthy" conditions when referring to this defense next season, we could even extend to the offense since Amendola, Gronk and Edelman are injury prones and it seems that Dobston too. But let's only focus on defense right now.

I'm really worried about this defense, everybody counts on this "we have a top 5 defense without the injuries", but can we really count on this no injury condition? I don't think so. Actually, I think it's more likely to get devastated by injuries again than to stay completely healthy or with minor injuries. And this time we could not say we didn't see it coming.

Adding another injury prone guy in Easley is a huge gamble, I love the guy and his upside but after the Ras Island fiasco I can't help but hope his knees hold this time. Otherwise the setback will be tough to digest.

 

[chasa]

prior to losing most of the starters, weren't we ranked number 1 in points allowed? so long as everyone comes back healthy the defense should be elite.

 

[Kontradiction]

I think they can completely afford to do this in the subsets. Mayo (barely) and Collins are better in coverage anyway. If they wanted to slide him up to DE and kick Jones inside a handful of times a game they could get away that.

Mayo is much better in coverage than Hightower. But I could definitely see Hightower as a DL if the Pats roll out a 5-2-4.

I liked the way he was used as a rookie. He was used at the SAM in a 4-3 and SOLB in a 3-4. That works to his strengths, he was a few yards off the line on the shoulder of the opponents TE. His skill set and playing style compares to Brooks on the 49ers in my opinion. Last season he was playing WILL LB that is not his game, he isn't a sideline to sideline LB.

I agree that the LB position is an area of concern. I would have loved a Jordan Tripp or Christian Kirksey but it didn't happen. Maybe Beauharnais is a stud, he had good workout numbers.

Dates: 03/13/13
Height: 6007
Weight: 240
40 Yrd Dash: 4.67
20 Yrd Dash: 2.74
10 Yrd Dash: 1.61
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 19
Vertical Jump: 33
Broad Jump: 09'10"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.20
3-Cone Drill: 6.99

Beauharnais doesn't look to be much more than a core special teamer. I would have loved another LB like KPL or Tripp and advocated for them often in the draft. Instead, the team took James White.

 

[mayoclinic]

Mayo is much better in coverage than Hightower. But I could definitely see Hightower as a DL if the Pats roll out a 5-2-4.

If you platoon Ninkovich and Hightower as a LDE/SAM LB, then you can easily run a hybrid 5-2 / 4-3 under base, using Kelly/Armstead as the second "3" tech in a 5-2 and becoming the LDE in a 4-3 under when Nink/Hightower kick out over the TE.

Beauharnais doesn't look to be much more than a core special teamer. I would have loved another LB like KPL or Tripp and advocated for them often in the draft. Instead, the team took James White.

Agreed. The Pats could have gotten KPL at 130, Telvin Smith or Tripp at 140, or Christian Jones at 244 (or as a UDFA), all of whom would have added considerable versatility, range and coverage ability. The failure to land any of those guys, or a big safety like Antone Exum or Lonnie Ballentine in the late rounds, is the biggest question mark I have with the draft. Any of KPL/Telvin Smith/Exum could have played a "star"/"stud" hybrid LB/S role that would have allowed the Pats to play a 4-2-1-4 scheme that would have been useful as a base against spread and no-huddle offenses.

 

[jays52]

If (and they should by the looks of the roster moves) go 43, Hightower will be the mike. Mayo will finally be able to be the will while Collins will play the sam, most likely over Easley. That's a very strong, versatile lb corps, especially with keeping Hightower playing between the hashes where he belongs.

They've become faster, more physical, and finally have the ability to shut down the outside receivers with excellent press corners. When you condense the field and have speed demons in the middle your defense swarms. Also if you play a bunch of press you are generally going to be dialing up some pressure and they have the horses to do it this year.

What interests me is their plans for Ryan at safety. It looks just by roster design to be a two righ safety look but that doesn't make a ton of sense given Revis and Browner's skill sets. I think they're looking to disguise, disguise, and disguise some more. It will very interesting to see what their various permutations of sub coverages turn out to be.