Dream Team vs. Olypmic Team

[Kontradiction]

Interesting that you pulled comments from threads before the Heat were pulled together in their Championship winning form.

Why wouldn't I?

There's only three things I was wrong about.

You were wrong throughout the entire thread, and have often been wrong about the team since they've came together. The reason why you don't go all out on them anymore, I suspect, is because they've proven you wrong time and time again.

1. Bosh is better than I gave him credit for and showed that in the Finals.
2. Mario Chalmers is a fine player. Chalmers improvement coupled with Battier's signing pushed the Heat over the edge.
3. The Heat won the championship, but not in the form as discussed at that point in time.

You were wrong that there was nothing in that roster that was championship caliber. Mike Miller and Mario Chalmers, among others say hi. So does Joel Anthony's defense. You were wrong that LeBron was playing on a "considerably better side" with Cleveland than in Miami. In fact, that was hilariously wrong. You were wrong that they needed a massive roster overhaul before they won. As far back as this season, you were trying to tell me that the Heat's massive issues in the big man department would be too much to overcome. I argued that the Heat could pull through because they do a good job of getting to the rim as a TEAM. Looks like you were wrong there as well.

Once again, pull these phantom quotes Kontra.

I honestly have no clue what you're talking about here.

I'm going to bite even though you don't warrant a response. In it's most simplistic notion Bird made the players around him better because of the way he controlled a game with his mentality.

I can respect this. Up until this year, IMO, there was no question of who had the better mentality.

LeBron makes players around him better because he's one of the most physically gifted players to ever play in the NBA.

I think this is the most overrated point that anybody (specifically Celtics fans now that people are actually starting to come around to LeBron again) can make. LeBron plays the point, he plays SG, SF, PF, and even C sometimes. Every position in the game, he plays it and plays it well. He creates for his teammates either through driving to the hole, or through passing. Are you going to sit there and tell me that would often lead the team in assists because he's more athletic than the rest of the guys on the court? If you did, that wouldn't make sense. If we're talking play on the court, that's yet another point that makes LeBron an effective leader of men.

FFS it took him nearly 10 years to work out how to use his athleticism to develop a post game.

LeBron had a post game before this year, it just wasn't nearly as effective as it was until after he seeked help to make it better.

Further, it took Jordan nearly that long to fine tune his game and win a title. Was he not an effective leader of men?

 

[captain insano]

I'm sure I am to the simple-minded.



I asked what the distinction was. The only one that's been remotely able to bring that up to me so far has been BradyManny. The rest of you have made it personal because you haven't been able to find one.



Let's remember here that I never started this. That was ausbacker...

I am of the firm belief that Bird, Magic and Jordan are all considerably better players than LeBron because they were all leaders of men. LeBron isn't a leader.

...to which I responded that he must have not seen the Finals where LeBron was CLEARLY a leader. After that, the we went down the path of what did Bird do differently than LeBron in any one of his Finals appearances to be more of a "leader of men"? I still haven't gotten a concrete answer on that.



Actually, that was you...

but as you acknowledge yourself bird was the superior player. the fact that you would even entertain this silly question just shows your total lack of objectivity when it comes to lebron james.



Stating that you are open to being convinced is the definition of being objective. So, convince me.



I literally answered all of your questions in my last post.



I've already given you the boundaries. Your response was to compare Bird as a player. That wasn't my question. My question was how he was a better leader of men. I acknowledged that Bird has the upper hand as a player right now, but I also acknowledged that LeBron played all five positions in this playoff run and has often played multiple positions in his career. Can you tell me the last time Bird did that?



That particular post was definitely a copout.



In his personal life, LeBron has never been arrested nor has ever made the news for something like what Chad Johson just did.

On the court, he's been a multi-NBA MVP, led what would become one of the worst teams ever after he left to a Finals appearance against the greatest dynasty of the last decade, won the NBA Finals with multiple awe-inspiring performances, won the NBA MVP, and won a gold medal in the same year. By your criteria, LeBron is an excellent leader of men. Better start going by my criteria...



You can consider it if you so wish, but you really don't have much of an argument. Again, I wasn't the one that made the original claim. I'm just responding to it.



I assumed that would happen from the get-go.



Then you also reject the original claim that, not only was Bird a better leader of men, but also that LeBron is not a leader of men.



Ah, but yet I'm the one that is deciding whether or not others are objective. Nice complete contradiction. And I'm not proclaiming anybody wrong. The question was fair. Aside from what BradyManny just brought up, I have had anybody fairly respond to it, or least not a response that could be easily counter argued.



Nice logic too.



If that's what reasonable debate and critical thinking skills are to you, then that seems like a personal issue.



Wrong again. I've posted in this forum without any support from anybody in here since 2009.



Remember when you accused me of going personal earlier in the thread? What happened with that?

I'm sorry but i cant take you seriously. there was a time when your posts where a must read but not anymore. you lack objectivity and the critical thinking skills to have a reasonable debate. everything you posted above is completely wrong. when you choose to answer my questions let me know.

 

[Kontradiction]

I'm sorry but i cant take you seriously. there was a time when your posts where a must read but not anymore. you lack objectivity and the critical thinking skills to have a reasonable debate. everything you posted above is completely wrong. when you choose to answer my questions let me know.

Sure, I'll be happy to answer your questions...

Why would I make any effort to answer your's in the first place when nobody in here has been capable of answering mine, including you?



No. That point has already been asserted and the claim has been made. The question is HOW was Bird a better leader of men. What did he do differently than what LeBron just did?



The Finals are where leaders and legends are created, so yes.



You already tried to do that and there was no distinction. My (correct) response was that there was no difference as LeBron played all five positions.



And I already responded to that which is why this post is a copout.



If it was stated as opinion in the OP, I wouldn't have responded to it. Instead, it was stated as fact. So I'll ask again: What did Bird do that made him a better leader of men in any one of his Finals appearances that LeBron didn't do?

But, out of pure boredom, you can use any... is in ANY criteria you want. Have fun with it...

 

[BradyManny]

As for being "all about basketball", I'm not sure how you can say that LeBron isn't. He's played entire seasons in his career and then went on to play in the Olympics for his country. He could have easily rested on his laurels this year...

1. NBA MVP
2. NBA Champion
3. NBA Finals MVP

...but instead he played in the Olympics because he loves basketball. What did he do? Hit the biggest shot of the game to put the USA up for good in the Gold medal round.

There's no doubt the Celtics teams were leagues better than any of the Cleveland teams, so I won't even bother trying to argue that point. That I'll concede, naturally.

But to this point, Lebron's playing in the Olympics doesn't necessarily indicate his dedication to basketball. My contention is that he's an attention-whore and media-whore; there's no bigger stage than the Olympics so why would he shy away from it.

 

[Kontradiction]

There's no doubt the Celtics teams were leagues better than any of the Cleveland teams, so I won't even bother trying to argue that point. That I'll concede, naturally.

But to this point, Lebron's playing in the Olympics doesn't necessarily indicate his dedication to basketball. My contention is that he's an attention-whore and media-whore; there's no bigger stage than the Olympics so why would he shy away from it.

His being an attention whore has nothing to do with him being a leader of men or loving the game of basketball though. It's absolutely irrelevant. As for the Olympics, I highly doubt that the reason he was there was because of his being an attention whore. If that were the case, you probably would have seen non-stop dunk attempts instead of high assist numbers.

 

[BradyManny]

His being an attention whore has nothing to do with him being a leader of men or loving the game of basketball though. It's absolutely irrelevant. As for the Olympics, I highly doubt that the reason he was there was because of his being an attention whore. If that were the case, you probably would have seen non-stop dunk attempts instead of high assist numbers.

Being an attention-whore does have to do with being a leader. The greats, the Bird, Magic, Jordan types had a tunnel-vision focus on winning at all costs. Those three guys would've played these games in an empty gym with no cameras and played just as hard. It sets the tone for the whole squad. Lebron does not have that established history, yet. Which is why, I think, we can fairly judge his motives at any point.

Now it's quite possible that like his game itself, Lebron is maturing as a competitor and a person. But I need to see it more to believe it.

 

[ausbacker]

Why wouldn't I?

Because they're not applicable nor representative of the arguments of the time. They're misrepresentations you've chosen to big note yourself.

You were wrong throughout the entire thread, and have often been wrong about the team since they've came together. The reason why you don't go all out on them anymore, I suspect, is because they've proven you wrong time and time again.

Not in particular.

You were wrong that there was nothing in that roster that was championship caliber. Mike Miller and Mario Chalmers, among others say hi. So does Joel Anthony's defense. You were wrong that LeBron was playing on a "considerably better side" with Cleveland than in Miami. In fact, that was hilariously wrong. You were wrong that they needed a massive roster overhaul before they won. As far back as this season, you were trying to tell me that the Heat's massive issues in the big man department would be too much to overcome. I argued that the Heat could pull through because they do a good job of getting to the rim as a TEAM. Looks like you were wrong there as well.

Joel Anthony is a crab. The roster was overhauled as there was marked improvement from career scrubbers like Chalmers in 2012. LeBron was superb in the Finals.

The Heat's big man issues should have been a major issue. LeBron developing a post game alleviated that. Bosh getting healthy also helped.

I honestly have no clue what you're talking about here.

Of course not. Nothing you disagree with makes sense to you nor has it. Why should it now?

I can respect this. Up until this year, IMO, there was no question of who had the better mentality.

It is still applicable.

I think this is the most overrated point that anybody (specifically Celtics fans now that people are actually starting to come around to LeBron again) can make. LeBron plays the point, he plays SG, SF, PF, and even C sometimes. Every position in the game, he plays it and plays it well. He creates for his teammates either through driving to the hole, or through passing. Are you going to sit there and tell me that would often lead the team in assists because he's more athletic than the rest of the guys on the court? If you did, that wouldn't make sense. If we're talking play on the court, that's yet another point that makes LeBron an effective leader of men.

No.

LeBron had a post game before this year, it just wasn't nearly as effective as it was until after he seeked help to make it better.

Everyone has a post game, that doesn't mean it's effective.

Further, it took Jordan nearly that long to fine tune his game and win a title. Was he not an effective leader of men?

Jordan > LeBron.