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Do we need competition at the kicker spot?


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Gostkowski will break . . . (choose ALL that apply)

  • His career mark for FGs made (36)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • His career mark for points scored (153)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 1,000 points in 8 seasons (an NFL first)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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  • Poll closed .
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PatsFaninAZ

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The 40-49 yarder is crucial in football. Missing it is like a turnover plus 7 yards. An above average NFL kicker should make most of them -- 10/12 or so should be the expectation. Some kickers were better than that. More than 3 misses in a year is bad.

So far Gostkowski has made one and missed one. Is it time to panic? Well, probably not. If he nails 9 of 10 for the rest of the year, great.

But there's some evidence that perhaps misses from this distance are not aberrational or a small sample size problem. What is that evidence:

1) He missed 4 of them last year -- more than any other player other than Akers.

2) He also missed 2 kicks last year of 30-39 yards. That's unacceptable if it becomes a trend. If a guy misses a couple in a year, whatever, you chalk it up to small sample size problems or crazy blocked kicks or something. But if he does it a few years in a row, you can't have him on your team. But with Gostkowsi we're starting to get some evidence this isn't a small sample size problem. Put it together with the four misses from 40-49 and you have six misses from 30-49 -- most in the NFL last year. To be sure, he had more attempts than many in the league -- so his overall percentage is just "bad," not "horrible." (He was 20th in the league in FG percentage last year.) Again, my goal here is not to get stuck on small sample size problems, but instead to see what the evidence in total shows.

3) His one 40+ make this year did not exactly inspire confidence. It was a low line drive on a distance and in conditions where that was entirely unnecessary.

4) He missed from 44 and 50 in preseason. So, there's suspicion than 1-2 so far this year is continuation of a trend, not counter to a trend.

5) This one is totally subjective -- I have no expertise whatsoever in kicking. His balls move way too much. His kicks don't look to me like others in the league -- they never have. Even his extra points move right or left and have a knuckleball effect. On kicks longer than 35 yards, I can't say I notice any consistency -- no draw or slice or even height uniformity. I go to 8 games a year in Arizona, so watch warmups and of course have seen lots of field goal kicks in person. Everyone sees a bunch of them on tv and lots of you go to more game than I do, so I have no special expertise. But by and large, most kickers are very very uniform. Off the foot, unless it's a total mi****, the kicks all look the same. End over end high balls with roughly the same trajectory designed for maximum distance. Very little left to right action -- you can usually tell off the foot whether it's starting out middle, left, right, and it usually stays there. A few kickers have a draw action and so work the ball a bit, but it's very consistent. The only exceptions are for very long kicks where guys drive it low or kicks in weather. Gost's kicks are all over the place. It's not always that same high, end over end trajectory that every other kicker seems to use. They start left, they start right, they start low, they start high, they move left, they move right (although more left to right usually), they knuckle. Belichick and the offense seem to put a premium on getting him in the middle of the field, which I think is right given there's no consistency in which way the ball goes, so you just ask him to try to hit it straight and then he has margin on either side.

I really would like know if there are any other kickers out there who we might be able to use, because we can't have another season with six misses from 30-49. Not this year. He got it away with it last year in all but one game. We may not have the same margins this year.

Edit -- Ha, the auto program thinks the word mis-hit when typed without the hypen is a swear. That's funny.
 
Honestly, kicker is the least of their issues at this point, and this is more of a question that will require an entire season sample and if needed it will be addressed during the offseason. Any good kicker that there is has a job right now and honestly I'm not overly worried about him unless his percentage drops radically. Could they upgrade him after the season if he falters the way they did with Ryan Allen? I guess so, but honestly it's a little early to go here. Just my opinion. :cool:
 
I'm willing to bet that was a bad hold. Obviously, someone has it recorded, I don't, but I was watching his approach intently and a clam like that usually won't happen unless there's slip or flinch of some sort. Even a bad snap would cause the kicker to hesitate.

Before we pass judgment, anybody got that sequence on video closeup?
 
I loathed seeing him miss that kick at the half.

There's the obvious circumstances on how that game was going and where it ended up, but it's absolutely critical he is consistent from that distance. Especially with an offense that is trying to find themselves and he is going to be asked to kick 3's more than usual.

I would have liked to see some competition at camp but that ship has sailed.

Hard to say if any available kicker right now is an upgrade (I doubt it) but like you said, having a season like he did last year won't cut it. Not this season, not with this offense, not with this schedule. It will cost us wins.
 
I loathed seeing him miss that kick at the half.

There's the obvious circumstances on how that game was going and where it ended up, but it's absolutely critical he is consistent from that distance. Especially with an offense that is trying to find themselves and he is going to be asked to kick 3's more than usual.

I would have liked to see some competition at camp but that ship has sailed.

Hard to say if any available kicker right now is an upgrade (I doubt it) but like you said, having a season like he did last year won't cut it. Not this season, not with this offense, not with this schedule. It will cost us wins.

He hit 2/3 last night, and if he doesn't they potentially lose the game. So that offsets your thought on him, but hey - I'm a glass half-full kind of guy ;)
 
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The Patriots routinely try out kickers during the season (at least in the past they have). If they feel the need to replace Ghost, they will. Don't really need a competition; it's a kicker.
 
All time leader in NFL history is Mike Vanderjagt, the liquored kicker, at 86%.

Gostkowski is at 84%.

This year?

4 for 5 or 80%.

His holder was cut 1 1/2 weeks ago.

So, I'd say NO.
 
I'm willing to bet that was a bad hold. Obviously, someone has it recorded, I don't, but I was watching his approach intently and a clam like that usually won't happen unless there's slip or flinch of some sort. Even a bad snap would cause the kicker to hesitate.

Before we pass judgment, anybody got that sequence on video closeup?

That was my first thought as well. I haven't seen a replay, but typically a ball that is kicked like that is a result of a botched snap and/or bad hold.

If that is the case then replacing the kicker not only does not improve the situation, it potentially makes it much worse; with a new kicker now you have to start all over in getting the timing down between the three players (snapper, holder, kicker) involved in executing a field goal.
 
Having competition is not really a bad thing. It inspires people to always do their best. Technically we have competition for our hall of fame QB in Mallet. So why not have competition for our kicker?

That said, this really isn't the time. The time for competition was camp/preseason. Also, contracts and cap ramifications need to be taken into account. Bringing in competition now really wouldn't change anything. A new kicker would not likely beat Ghost on the roster midseason.

We should do this in next year's camp but with respect to this season I'd say no.
 
Goddamnit people he missed one kick!

It's gostowski were talking about not some dime a dozen kicker from state university He has te best record in the league

How about that Arizona game last year? I'm not saying he should be cut, but replacing him is a fair conversation to have.

I watched the replay and the hold looked fine to me. I believe he just kicked the ground behind the ball.
 
He hit 2/3 last night, and if he doesn't they potentially lose the game. So that offsets your thought on him, but hey - I'm a glass half-full kind of guy ;)

That is true. And the Buffalo game last week. Though he did cost them the Cardinals game last year.

I'm just saying in the bigger picture, this offense needs all the help they can get while they're trying to sort things out... and they're not going to get much help from a kicker who is inconsistent from 30+ (as Ghost has been since last year)...
 
That is true. And the Buffalo game last week. Though he did cost them the Cardinals game last year.

I'm just saying in the bigger picture, this offense needs all the help they can get while they're trying to sort things out... and they're not going to get much help from a kicker who is inconsistent from 30+ (as Ghost has been since last year)...

I agree. But I'm not for replacing him--esp not these days with so much in flux. He's missed too many easy ones along the way. And last night, after having a TD called back, we go backwards and end up with nothing at all.

I think he's over-rated and I think this is where much of the disappointment comes from. I wish he were just a wee bit better.
 
I agree. But I'm not for replacing him--esp not these days with so much in flux. He's missed too many easy ones along the way. And last night, after having a TD called back, we go backwards and end up with nothing at all.

I think he's over-rated and I think this is where much of the disappointment comes from. I wish he were just a wee bit better.

On the bright side his kickoffs were excellent last night.

That reminds me, our KO returner is LeGarrette Blount :(
 
Useless thread unless you offer good alternatives, of which there are none.
 
Over reaction Friday

I tried very hard to avoid making my post an "our kicker sucks" post, and if you read it, it's hard to imagine it would have come off to a reaction about a single missed field goal. I was pretty specific about what I'm talking about -- he was 1 for 3 in 40-50 in preseason, he's already missed one of that distance this year, and he missed more 30-49 yarders last year than any other kicker.

I'm really not hearing any counter to those points as a cause for concern. I think the point that the competition ship has sailed is a fine and good response. If someone wants to take on that a 40-49 yard field goal miss is effectively a turnover or worse, I'm all ears on that too. Just calling the mounting evidence that he's not an effective mid- to long range kicker was an "overreaction" seems, I dunno, not to really want to engage in debate.

As for the argument that Mike Vanderjagt was 86 percent -- the argument that seems to get trotted out whenever a kicker misses to say he's really ok. It reminds me of some of the old school thinking in baseball, that misses the point that the game has moved beyond old thinking. 86 percent would have been 17th in the league last year. It's simply not an appropriate yardstick any more. Gost was 82.9 percent last year, good enough for 20th in the league. A kicker that is below 85 percent two years in a row in the NFL today will not have a job. That's the reality. Gostkowski missed two 30-39 yarders last year. Sebastian Janiknowski has only missed two 30-39 yarders in seven years. Yes, I get that comparing him to the gold standard is hardly fair. But I'm making the point that 86 percent is simply not the right stat. Here's another way to look at it -- of the top 30 field goal percentage kickers of all time, 24 are active players, and many are being dragged down by their mid-2000s numbers. By 2020, you're going to have ten players in the 90th percentile.
 
On the bright side his kickoffs were excellent last night.

That reminds me, our KO returner is LeGarrette Blount :(

Yes. His kick-offs have improved while his field goal kicking has gone a little south. Bleaker has him rated 20th going into this season--this confirms the lead thread.

Also BB must be disappointed to say the least because he hates turnovers with a passion. And a missed 40 yarder is the same as a turnover.
 
How about that Arizona game last year? I'm not saying he should be cut, but replacing him is a fair conversation to have.

I watched the replay and the hold looked fine to me. I believe he just kicked the ground behind the ball.
How about vs NJY last year? BUF this year? In SD in 2010?
 
How about vs NJY last year? BUF this year? In SD in 2010?

From a media standpoint, being a kicker sucks. You're expected to make every kick, so you almost never get credit for them, but you do get blamed for every miss.
 
Useless thread unless you offer good alternatives, of which there are none.

That's probably right, I guess. Unless you're prepared to have two kickers on the roster which, for this team, would be stupid right now. And not the right move just to kick the tires on Olindo Mare. So, yes, I guess not an entirely useful thread.

I guess maybe just something to keep our eyes on for purposes of thinking about next year.
 
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